[Theotendo]

DoD p252 (Kalyth and Sag'Churok in the wastelands)

"...Forces in opposition. Take away one - spike it to a tree - and the other is lost. It cannot exist, cannot survive looking across the Abyss and seeing nothing, no one, no foe. This is why you have lost your god, Sag'Churok. Or, if it still lives, it has been driven into the oblivion of insanity. Too alone. An orphan..."

There has been much speculation (though hacking through the results screen on a search lacking in the right input leads me to fail utterly in finding it) on the connection between Korabas and Kaminsod. I never could figure it, myself. But what if Kaminsod is indeed Tiam? Or an incarnation of Tiam? Is it possible that the real reason everyone is so eager to grab what power there is to be had is because the one they chained is the wellspring of all draconean power? There are many gaps to this theory, of course, but I think a little unraveling may prise loose the relative truth, yes?

[Abyss]

I don't think so.

Way back pre-Kallor's empire, the second or third Tiste invasion went down, resulting in Scabby's attack on the Matrons that led to the death cry end of the universe thing and Kila and Mael killing Scabby and finnesting his soul.

There's a vague point here, because someone, Binada iirc, states that to take Scabby down the dragons created a terrible child... now of course we know everything in Edur myth is debateable as to accuracy... so our running theory that the terrible child was the Otataral dragon is unsupported speculation, but there it is.

To our limitted knowledge based on the chat between Ossi, Menandore and Dapple that Udinaas sees in MT, Tiam is still active(ly being a skanky ho) at that time.

Ffwd a few hundred thousand years or so and the CG is yanked down in a power-play against Kallor (as far as we know) and then chained due to his madness. We know he's a god from another dimension with a whole other aspect that is never quite made clear but apprently involved giant penises (MT flashback again).


We do not know exactly when Tiam stopped dying and being reborn or whatever it is that she does. In fact we've never been told with any clarity just what her current status is. DoD gives us grounds to guess that Tiam's been inactive since the Ota'dragon was pinned up by the other dragons. We also don't know precisely when the Ot'dragon was crucified. It appears that, since the pocket warren is located in the Imperial Warren, it would have been after the Fall, but Pearl mentions that the crucifix is in it's own warren so all bets are off because those things fly all over the place.


So two incredibly powerful beings, both chained, and a third who's gone missing/dead, but nope, not the same.


- Abyss, could, of course, be wrong.

[Tattersail_]

We have had characters hide or change their name in this series, it could be possible that Kaminsod could be Tiam if based on the name changing theory. However, like Abyss showed above there are too many reasons that they are not one and the same.

The main thing is that Kaminsod was an alien God, pulled down from a different realm, where as Tiam would not be alien would she. tCG was also at war in his own realm and I think he was warring against the jade statues or powers that control them.

[Theotendo]

True enough. Kalyth's words to Sag'Churok still nibble in my head, though. That and the fact that draconean minds have always been described as "brutal, alien and cold." Dragons also have a penchant for claiming godhood (Eloth and the two others chained in Shadow, as well as Olar Ethil, Tiam's daughter).

If Tiam were so lost after Korabas was chained and they no longer contended, who knows where she might have gone? What she might have done to seek new meaning? And her being brought down to Wu in this current form, eventually becoming the catalyst for Korabas to be released, seems almost...poetic. Circular, if you will.

[Excellence]

Throwing my 2 cents into the wishing well...

K'rul disappeared for a millennia. Went into the chaos warren and was presumed dead by all. Book one. Chained Man employs chaos.

K'rul is heavily implied in book 9 as draconean. The first hint we've gotten about him. The Clan of Elders discussion by Errant, I believe.

The Chained can't be Tiam because Tiam is a dragon and K'rul would know and we'd have knwon by now after 9 books, but he didn't know 100,000 yrs in book 3's prologue or book 3 itself.

[Theotendo]

Hmm...I'm going hunting for some more substantial proof. I'm sure it's in there somewhere. The possibility is just so marvelously...I don't know...inconvenient. After all, we haven't seen hide nor hair of Tiam's corpse, have we?

[The Seguleh 46th]

Not sure if i buy the theory, but i'll try and add a bit to your cause by saying that even Tiam was being sorely used for her draconean power way back in the day by the likes of Rake, Osserc, Scabby, etc. Sorta like TCG's power is present day.

That aside, i don't think TCG is Tiam, but i really have nothing to argue for or against either! I will say the suspense is killing me though for this book!

[haroos]

Theotendo, on 14 September 2010 - 06:32 PM, said:

DoD p252 (Kalyth and Sag'Churok in the wastelands)

"...Forces in opposition. Take away one - spike it to a tree - and the other is lost. It cannot exist, cannot survive looking across the Abyss and seeing nothing, no one, no foe. This is why you have lost your god, Sag'Churok. Or, if it still lives, it has been driven into the oblivion of insanity. Too alone. An orphan..."

There has been much speculation (though hacking through the results screen on a search lacking in the right input leads me to fail utterly in finding it) on the connection between Korabas and Kaminsod. I never could figure it, myself. But what if Kaminsod is indeed Tiam? Or an incarnation of Tiam? Is it possible that the real reason everyone is so eager to grab what power there is to be had is because the one they chained is the wellspring of all draconean power? There are many gaps to this theory, of course, but I think a little unraveling may prise loose the relative truth, yes?

i had to search kaminsod, where does it say that kaminsod is the CG ?
i saw it in the encyclopedia, but nowhere else.

but anyway, it doesn't make sense that tiam is the CG, tiam had too much familiarity with WU, at least through everyone there who knew her.
i doubt they are one and the same.

[Lister of Smeg]

During one of the meetings of the Elder Gods, one of them (Olar Ethil?) calls the CG Kaminsod.

[lobo the wolfman]

Nice theory, but like others here l doubt it due to a few things,

I think it was stated in Toll that SD was sealed after Rake killed Taim in order to prevent others from getting to and using Taim's blood because she wasn't in any state to stop them, where as before she had some control over who became draconic.

And secondly the destruction caused by the CG's fall was because he was pulled from a far and alien realm, l can't see that the same result would happen if Taim was pulled from SD, even though the warren itself is on the edge of chaos it is still put of the malazan universe. Where the CG came from is not.

Although it is not unthinkable that SE will pull a sucker punch on us all and prove you right....

This post has been edited by lobo the wolfman: 18 September 2010 - 11:06 PM