[Seanchen]

Ok so I've never started a topic on any forum, in fact this is my first topic and forum ever so I'll apologise in advance if I don't follow protocol or expected decorum. Firstly I have to comment that no other author has inspired me more in terms individual bravery and personal substance since Steven Pressfield's Gates of Fire novel. How Erikson manages to so easilly instill one of the most admiring traits into so many of his characters as a matter of course just amazes me.

The battles appear to many on this forum to be a pont of contention so whilst I'll ignore and move away from the topic of battle content I just have to make the point that the bravery demonstrated by individuals and groups within the Malazan army in this book astound me. The incredible feats of bravery actually had me in tears. Which is not a first for Erkikson but certainly a rare response few authors can elicit in me.

Not sure what I am expecting from any responses that may be forthcoming but sometimes you just have to share how much a book affects you.

[Defiance]

The selfless sacrifice is what really gets me. Beak, Rake, Coltaine, Itkovian, and so on.

[TheSurvivor]

Maybe it'll be different on the reread but I found Beak's sacrifice lacking in terms of comrade reaction. I found it amazing but I thought the rest of the marines were kinda meh for the most part. I know they all gave his grave something but it just seemed kinda common courtesy. Anyway, self-sacrifice and bravery is everywhere in the Malazan series and personally I prefer it coming from the common soldier or someone without any special powers. That's when it hits me the most and there are just so many times when it happens. Steven Erikson is a genius - gah! How redundant is it to state that fact?

[Defiance]

Ya, there wasn't a whole lot of reaction to Beak's sacrifice. I think part of it was because how much was happening at the time. The ending of RG was so incredibly action packed that I don't think the marines really had much time to soak it all in. That's not what got me, though - it was the stuff from his perspective, especially with Hood and his brother that really did it for me.

[Tattersail_]

yeh that was a nice touch, one person that I think is a good demonstration of this is Nait aka Sergeant Jumpy, his character builds throughout the book and he becomes one of my favourite characters, this is the malazan world, we love it so

[Kanubis]

It's all Braven Tooth y'know. They join the army as your average peon and by the time he's finished with them they'll stand toe-to-toe with giant lizard men without breaking.  

[Gothos]

That's because a phalanx of giant lizards with Ghostbusters guns is nothing compared to Braven Tooth. Not even close.

[Mcflury]

Actually, we haven't seen enough of Braven Tooth in my opinion. but yeah, I guess he's bad ass enough

As to Beak: his sacrifice was great, and I think the hommage of the marines was great as well. I forgot her name (shame on me) but the drunk woman actually threw a flask of booze on the pile didn't she? That was probably the greatest gift anyone could give!
And also, his reuniting with his brother, and the fact that Hood was actually waiting for Beak at his gates, that was what made it all very special.
That, and the fact that I simply loved Beak from the word he came into play.

And yes, like the OP said, SE does have a way to make all his characters very brave, but in a natural, convincing way. Not as in "ha! I'm brave enough to throw this stupid ring in that silly mountain of fire!" but more of "If you fucking dumb lizard come between me and my friends, oh god lizard, you'll pay!!!". So it's a bravery we can relate to more, a bravery that many of us do have in us, or would like to have in us. That's why it all touches us so much. That's why SE is so great.

[Abyss]

Keep in mind that when Beak sacrifices himself in RG, most of the marines barely know him. The impact right them is limitted by them not really knowing what just happened. In DoD we see at least one exchange referring to Beak's sacrifice, so safe to say he's held in high regard down the road.

Back in DG Duiker repeatedly makes the point that Malazan soldiers fight for themselves and the person next to them in line. There's also an understanding that the rank-and-file have a level of trust for their officers to use their lives for a purpose and not throw them away pointlessly. We've seen reference to how this is enforced ('readying the knives' for Ranal in HoC and even Paran back in MoI) and how it can go horribly wrong (the Aren Legion in DG) but overall the point is an army of rejects are given a purpose and a family the training to go out there and kill things for that purpose/family and it works to the point that the soldiers will sacrifice themselves as we see when the Nah'ruk march down on the Bonehunters, when Hedge blowsed himself up in MoI, when the soldiers refused to leave Coltaine to the point of just putting their bodies between him and the enemy at the Fall...

[Azathmaster]

Mcflury, on 13 September 2010 - 05:14 PM, said:

Actually, we haven't seen enough of Braven Tooth in my opinion. but yeah, I guess he's bad ass enough

As to Beak: his sacrifice was great, and I think the hommage of the marines was great as well. I forgot her name (shame on me) but the drunk woman actually threw a flask of booze on the pile didn't she? That was probably the greatest gift anyone could give!
And also, his reuniting with his brother, and the fact that Hood was actually waiting for Beak at his gates, that was what made it all very special.
That, and the fact that I simply loved Beak from the word he came into play.

And yes, like the OP said, SE does have a way to make all his characters very brave, but in a natural, convincing way. Not as in "ha! I'm brave enough to throw this stupid ring in that silly mountain of fire!" but more of "If you fucking dumb lizard come between me and my friends, oh god lizard, you'll pay!!!". So it's a bravery we can relate to more, a bravery that many of us do have in us, or would like to have in us. That's why it all touches us so much. That's why SE is so great.

Her name was hellian

[worry]

Actually, Hood wasn't waiting for Beak. He was waiting for a certain other, one-eyed individual. Not to discount what Hood does for Beak after the fact.

[Abyss]

worrywort, on 21 February 2011 - 09:12 PM, said:

Actually, Hood wasn't waiting for Beak. He was waiting for a certain other, one-eyed individual. Not to discount what Hood does for Beak after the fact.

What makes you say he wasn't waiting for both Beak and Toc for different reasons? Beak goes on to the afterlife. Toc ends up recruited. Again.

[Silk]

all hail Toc the Mortal Sword of Tragedy ...... ;o) (ok maybe not so mortal but hey what better person for the sword of Dessembrae)

This post has been edited by Silk: 22 February 2011 - 12:17 PM

[Luzburg]

Silk, on 22 February 2011 - 12:17 PM, said:

all hail Toc the Mortal Sword of Tragedy ...... ;o) (ok maybe not so mortal but hey what better person for the sword of Dessembrae)

Himself?

No, I think the true tragedy of Dassem is that he is alone and won't have a shield anvil or destriant to shoulder the burden. Note: Stonewielder spoiler:

Spoiler

His first priestess got killed. Tragically!

[Silk]

Well looking at the tragedy that has been Toc the Youngers life and death to date... I think he takes the tragedy crown.

[HedgeWalker]

Abyss, on 21 February 2011 - 09:35 PM, said:

worrywort, on 21 February 2011 - 09:12 PM, said:

Actually, Hood wasn't waiting for Beak. He was waiting for a certain other, one-eyed individual. Not to discount what Hood does for Beak after the fact.

What makes you say he wasn't waiting for both Beak and Toc for different reasons? Beak goes on to the afterlife. Toc ends up recruited. Again.

Concur - the my over riding feeling was that Hood was waiting for Beak... Seems to fit as it puts Beaks' sacrifice alongside Brukhalian at Capustan.

[worry]

If I remember correctly, he specifically tells Beak so. I'll go ahead and check though.

EDIT: Okay, I checked. I guess you can say Hood was waiting for Beak. So I was wrong. Hood says he won't go through the gate with Beak because he's waiting for someone, which is what got me confused. Or I simply originally read it as Beak's death being a secondary matter to what Hood was really waiting for. I never compared it to Brukhalian though, but it does seem to me now that Beak gets "special" attention too.

This post has been edited by worrywort: 22 February 2011 - 10:13 PM

[Luzburg]

Silk, on 22 February 2011 - 01:27 PM, said:

Well looking at the tragedy that has been Toc the Youngers life and death to date... I think he takes the tragedy crown.

To be fair, there are many people in the series who have had tragedies so you can't really elevate Toc over them.

Tool has had a lot more time to be mortal sword of tragedy.

The crippled god is probably the most tragic being, if you take the snippet about him being a compassionate god before his fall as truth.

What happened to Silchas in DoD brought me close to tears.

I just don't feel for Toc, and that is because he just won't die!


As for Beak, his life was tragic, but his death was beautiful. I think that Hood was there for him because he deserved what he got. Toc was simply a pawn.

This post has been edited by Luzburg: 22 February 2011 - 11:56 PM

[Crix]

yea I like the common soldier bravery too. I love the camaraderie and when things look bleak these guys are so great eg. Corporal List from DG, Hellian, Fiddler, Sinter etc etc. When the heavies stood up to the Na'Ruk and died where they stood but did NOT break. That's some great reading. Oh yea Hellian in that awful period with Urb was great. She was bloodied but she wasn't backing off. No these Malazans know a thing or two about not breaking. I cant wait to read what happened to them in that fight.

Corabb Bhilan Thenula's is such an awesome character. I really love his perspective and love how he compares Leoman to Tavore. That was great reading. It makes sense that the marines would show Tavore the loyalty she needs marching to what seems like their own 'Thermopylae' aka suicide march/last stand.

I really enjoyed the battle between the Na'ruk and the Bonehunters and how those guys just wiped out the Burned Tears. And Toc refusing Tool. That was heart breaking stuff.

Geez, what wonders await me in the Crippled God? I will find out soon me thinks!!

This post has been edited by Crix: 21 March 2011 - 08:35 PM

[rannald]

It's always an even trade....
1) hedge blowing himself up to save the rest of the BB
2) Dujek's untan guard got slaughtered for him
3) the two marines that died with whiskeyjack
4) truth(or pella) running into the fire with a sack of bombs...
5) the soldiers who held a hill in DG so their mate could die in peace
6) the soldiers holding the jetty,without prior orders to do so, for the wikans and burned tears

Anyway Stephen Erickson goes out of his way to point out that the rest of the world is baffled when it comes to Malazans,
none of the god's know where they keep getting these soldiers or people from..