[KingTeholBeddict]

I just started my re-read of Deadhouse Gates, and when I came to when Kalam enters Raraku, and he's talking to Leoman and Karsa.

Leoman says:

Quote

The man who now held the Book of the Apocalypse heard the gruff whisper and snorted. 'You fancy no mortal could get that close to you without your hearing him. You tell yourself it must have involved magic. You are wrong. My companion is Toblakai, an escaped slave from the Laederon Plateau of Genabakis. He's seen seventeen summers and personally killed forty-one enemies...'

UK paperbak edition DG p. 200.

Does this mean he is seventeen years old when DG is set?

From what I could understand from my first read of HoC, I thought that Karsa and Company were older when they set out... Also, I thought that ten, twenty years passed between the beggining and the fall of the Whirlwind.

So, I'm also wondering how old Karsa was when he set out?

This post has been edited by KingTeholBeddict: 02 September 2010 - 07:17 PM

[Abyss]

i vaguely recall we rationalized this as Leoman giving the human equivalent of Teblor years, altho the "seventeen summers" wording kind of kills that explanation...

[ansible]

Early in HoC Karsa says he is eighty years old, which is right at the end of adolescence for the Teblor. Seventeen is also right around the end of adolescence in human terms, so perhaps that is the reason he's described so. Still, weird.

From Kalam delivering the Holy Book to Sha'ik's fall at Raraku is about two years, I think, not twenty.

[worry]

Leoman's a liar.

[HiddenOne]

This is an escaped GotMism from the plains of Laederon and it has taunted over 400 brains...

[D'rek]

Leoman later expresses to Karsa how little Karsa has spoken of himself and his origins. Karsa probably never told Leoman his precise age, but maybe said sometime that he had just reached "adulthood". Leoman wrongly inferred from this that he was a teenager, forgetting about the years conversion.

Or its just a DGism

[worry]

I think you're essentially right...I can imagine Karsa mentioning something along those lines, bluntly and perhaps more than once, and Leoman is repeating it halfway tongue-in-cheek, purely for his own amusement. He's kinda mocking the way Karsa speaks about himself (like with the precise number of enemies killed), which Kalam wouldn't get and even the reader wouldn't get at that point, but learning about Karsa makes it funnier on re-read.

[Nequam]

Yeah, I remember this being discussed plenty of times before, and I was never sure what to believe. Perhaps he meant Karsa has been with Leoman for 17 years now? As in he's seen seventeen summers in Raraku...that seems like a long time, because Leoman, from what I could tell, didn't seem to have aged much. Plausible though, right?

[Findarato]

Nequam, on 01 September 2010 - 10:12 PM, said:

Yeah, I remember this being discussed plenty of times before, and I was never sure what to believe. Perhaps he meant Karsa has been with Leoman for 17 years now? As in he's seen seventeen summers in Raraku...that seems like a long time, because Leoman, from what I could tell, didn't seem to have aged much. Plausible though, right?

that would also mean it to take 17 years for Pores, Kindly etc to get to Seven Cities after meeting Karsa in the town where he gets enslaved. and that is unlikely, so I rather would concur with what D'rek said. So to me it is either Leoman has no precise information or he lies.

[HedgeWalker]

Uhm - I'm going with the "He intimated that he has just entered adulthood - Leoman is assuming that he's about 17/18" assessment.

I like the thought that Leoman is taking the pi$$ though, fits with the character, and, makes me look forward to re-read joy!

[Harvester]

The whole Toblakai aging is totally f*cked up. Sometimes it takes them 70 years to enter adulthood, sometimes it takes less TtH SPOILER BLOCKED BY MANAGEMENT

Spoiler

only 6 to 7 years to become young women (you know what I am talking about, if not... it's rafo)

... don't look to closely or it'll stop making sense.

This post has been edited by Abyss: 02 September 2010 - 03:17 PM
Reason for edit: spoilers

[Quick Bill]

Harvester, on 02 September 2010 - 01:57 PM, said:

The whole Toblakai aging is totally f*cked up. Sometimes it takes them 70 years to enter adulthood, sometimes it takes only 6 to 7 years to become young women (you know what I am talking about, if not... it's rafo)... don't look to closely or it'll stop making sense.

Some people may find these little inconsistencies annoying, but I actually find them interesting. Particularly since I think it points to Erikson's writing method - where he is as much along for the ride as we are. Every little thing wasn't thought out and as such there was a lot of room for creation along the way, for the story to become itself. I think his experience in writing this must have been amazing. And my experience in reading it has been equally amazing, even with the quirks.

This post has been edited by Abyss: 02 September 2010 - 03:18 PM
Reason for edit: REF TO TTH SPOILER REMOVED BY ACT OF MODGOD

[Harvester]

Toll The Hounds Spoiler

Spoiler

Kara's twin rape-daughter's are close to reaching womanhood in TTH.

[Quick Bill]

Harvester, on 02 September 2010 - 03:09 PM, said:

Toll The Hounds Spoiler

Spoiler

Kara's twin rape-daughter's are close to reaching womanhood in TTH.

That's right. Could you remind me:

Spoiler

were they the result of Karsa's decent from the plateau in HoC, or from an earlier child killing exploit?

This post has been edited by Quick Bill: 15 September 2010 - 06:44 PM

[Harvester]

Spoiler

First option

btw. you should probably put some spoilers tags or people might get pissed off.

This post has been edited by Harvester: 02 September 2010 - 05:32 PM

[KingTeholBeddict]

ansible, on 01 September 2010 - 07:01 PM, said:

Early in HoC Karsa says he is eighty years old, which is right at the end of adolescence for the Teblor. Seventeen is also right around the end of adolescence in human terms, so perhaps that is the reason he's described so. Still, weird.

From Kalam delivering the Holy Book to Sha'ik's fall at Raraku is about two years, I think, not twenty.

Yeah, I realized now that I didn't make this part very clear. I meant to say that, to me, it seemed as if twenty years had passed between when Karsa and the other two left the Uryd Village until the fall of the Whirlwind.

[Nequam]

Findarato, on 02 September 2010 - 08:08 AM, said:

Nequam, on 01 September 2010 - 10:12 PM, said:

Yeah, I remember this being discussed plenty of times before, and I was never sure what to believe. Perhaps he meant Karsa has been with Leoman for 17 years now? As in he's seen seventeen summers in Raraku...that seems like a long time, because Leoman, from what I could tell, didn't seem to have aged much. Plausible though, right?

that would also mean it to take 17 years for Pores, Kindly etc to get to Seven Cities after meeting Karsa in the town where he gets enslaved. and that is unlikely, so I rather would concur with what D'rek said. So to me it is either Leoman has no precise information or he lies.

Ah, yes I see. Blast! I'm starting to think this was just a little mistake on Erikson's part.

[Defiance]

WITNESS!

[Felisin Fatter]

I think the 80 years to adulthood was a little mistake, an idea that Erikson later dropped and ignored. Considering that all of the long-lived races we see seem to grow up as fast as humans (though evidence is scarce). I also have the impression that he has no love for the baby/toddler stage so prefers to skip it completely. Perhaps we found a wish-fulfilment element in these books after all

[theocean]

It says ealry in HOC that karsa is entering his 18th year of life.