There has been considerable debate, at least in the past, about exactly what the word "jhistal" means or implies. Although that may already have been solved satisfactorily, I will nevertheless offer my thoughts for review.
My small opinion is derived from text that I have located on my Kindle copy of DoD, by using the search function. It describes the efforts by Felash and her Handmaiden to get home quickly, during which time they recognize the need to make a deal with an Elder God (Mael) in order to do so. The Handmaiden cautions...
Quote
"...one bargains with an Elder God at great peril. We musy pay in blood."
After Felash thinks for a bit she then says
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"Has the damned thing a name? Do you know it?"
Then...
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"Many names of course. When the colonists from the First Empire set forth, they made sacrifice to the salty seas in the name of Jhistal. The Tiste Edur in their great war canoes opened veins to feed the foam and this red froth they called Bloodmane - in the Edur language that word was Mael. The Jhek who live upon the ice call the dark waters beneath the ice the Lady of Patience, Barutulan. The Shake speak of Neral the Swallower."
"And on."
And on, Highness."
My opinion then is that Jhistal is just another of Mael's names (perhaps First Empire in origin), as is Barutulan, Bloodmane, etc.. Thus a Jhistal priest is a priest who worships Mael (by that name or any of his other designates) and nothing else. No?
SPOILER FOR CRIMSON GUARD BELOW. If you haven't read RotCG, best not read what follows.
Spoiler
If we can agree (heavens)upon the above then perhaps my question, posed long ago about who suddenly snatched Laseen's assasin safely away following her successful assassination was not "just some squad mage or random player", but Mael himself, or a powerful minion of his or Mellick Rel's, given their tension filled but mutually beneficial relationship. And the whole process of manipulating events regarding Mellick Rel's ascension (Laseen's murder, Rel's becoming Emperor, etc.) dovetails with both Mael's support of the Crippled God, and Tavore's plan to lead her army to interfere with the chaining of the CG - with Mael and Rel's assistance. Her brother, Master of the Deck, has already legitimized the CG's presence in the deck and one does not put it past the Paran family to act in concert to insure his (the CG's) survival. A very neatly elevated Mallick Rel (by virtue of Lasseen's death)- to emperor - encourages the worship of Mael (he then accumulates all of his remaining Elder potency, plus the vitalization of new worshippers and fresh blood shed in that worship - perhaps making him stronger than Elder Gods with no current worshippers. Rel becomes more powerful (by new position plus the support of an increasingly powerful god), and the Empire, with all of its endeavors, becomes even more capable of ensuring the CG's survival. And if the CG is beholden to that Empire for his survival, and his fragments are reunited....
Hello to my old friends.
OHA
This post has been edited by Old Hunch Arbat: 18 August 2010 - 05:34 AM
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Posted 18 August 2010 - 09:57 AM
I didn't read the exchange between Felash and her maid as you did. I read it as Jhistal being, not simply a name for Mael, but an aspect of him. The sea as devourer, requiring appeasement. Thus, the description of Rel as a Jhistal priest of Mael (he is consistently described as such in earlier books) may mean that he is a worshipper of that aspect of Mael that requires blood sacrifice -- the one route to power that Elder gods cannot ignore, it seems.
It is perfectly monstrous the way people go about nowadays saying things against one, behind one's back, that are absolutely and entirely true. -- Oscar Wilde
*here's hoping I can post more than one line without difficulty*
Its mentioned in the books that the Malazan empire has never had a patron god (though that is a bit of a stretch if you take into account that there was a quote about how they were doing work for Hood and the kind of conversation between ST and Tay with regards to Drek)
I personally have the opinion that regardless of this that ST and Cot may have engineered things to try have shadow as the Malaz Patron ... (not active though as that would get all the gods involved... however [spoil] if ST has his way and sits on every throne that point is moot[/spoiler] and based on the reference between Tay and ST about ST's child (which the general forum consensus could be the Malazan Empire) I think they would stand in the way.
In ROTCG
Spoiler
Mallick is less than what he was due to the rise in Worship of Mael by others and as such his hold on Mael may be non-existent now
This is not to say that the Elder Sea God is not positioning himself for power...though he is really not fussed by the world at large and what happens (personal view point of Mael... with exception of his relationship with a certain someone else)
The length of Mallick as emperor may well be shorter than that enjoyed by his predecessors due to the way I think things may happen in relation to the whole what is going on down in the wastes and who returns.
I think that what is actually happening is that the old players who are perhaps gaining more followers like Mael ...
Spoiler
with Mother Dark, Father Light and Draconus' return will definately garner more worshippers and not just the Tiste are positioning themselves to be part of the new order i.e getting themselves moved from Wandering to Hold to House
and making them all play by the same rules as those already governed by the deck
Probably not as well made out when written but it all made sense in my head .....
This post has been edited by Silk: 18 August 2010 - 01:19 PM
I didn't read the exchange between Felash and her maid as you did. I read it as Jhistal being, not simply a name for Mael, but an aspect of him. The sea as devourer, requiring appeasement. Thus, the description of Rel as a Jhistal priest of Mael (he is consistently described as such in earlier books) may mean that he is a worshipper of that aspect of Mael that requires blood sacrifice -- the one route to power that Elder gods cannot ignore, it seems.
What's the difference though? Basically she is saying that the "sea god" has been worshiped in many ways and by many names, which is naturally the case in a world which developed several polytheistic societies. I get what you're saying about Rel, who in "modern" Malazan times has perhaps chosen that specific way to worship Mael that suits his unsavory personality; but in terms of that conversation, all she's saying is that Mael isn't his "real" name any more than the others, since gods are defined by their worshipers...and that Jhistal originated as one of those names given by a particular society.
They came with white hands and left with red hands.
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Posted 18 August 2010 - 11:30 AM
That's not quite what I meant. I meant that worshipping Mael as a Jhistal worshipper forces power into certain channels. Mael used to be more bloodthirsty, I think, than he currently is, and so Jhistal worship was more prevalent. But it's still an aspect of him, and he can't deny it, or respond like D'rek did. And the point of being a Jhistal worshipper is that you are essentially ignoring the whole, and focusing only on one single facet. So it's not true to say that Jhistal worshippers of Mael are worshipping the same god as priests who follow Mael as we've come to know him.
It is perfectly monstrous the way people go about nowadays saying things against one, behind one's back, that are absolutely and entirely true. -- Oscar Wilde
This would make sense if we hadn't heard Mael speak bluntly about Mallick binding him against his will via a horrific ritual that would horrify even Kellanved.
Then we find out that Mael has broken the bindings and has nothing to do with Mallick from that point forward.
We have also seen that Ganoes and Tavore have not communicated much, they are not acting in concert...they just have similar morals and mindsets that have resulted in somewhat similar actions
Location:The call is coming from inside the house!!!!
Interests:Interesting.
Posted 18 August 2010 - 02:31 PM
While Jhistal may have been a name for Mael at one point, it appears to have become the name for the cult and its members as well.
Interesting that 'Mael' is an Edur word, tho the word itself may not have originated with the Edur i suppose.
As an aside, "...The Jhek who live upon the ice call the dark waters beneath the ice the Lady of Patience, Barutulan. The Shake speak of Neral the Swallower..." show a nice link to Mael's daughters' names Beru and Nerruse.
THIS IS YOUR REMINDER THAT THERE IS A 'VIEW NEW CONTENT' BUTTON THAT ALLOWS YOU TO VIEW NEW CONTENT
Interests:Writing. Martial arts. Sport. Music, playing and singing, composition.
Posted 18 August 2010 - 03:04 PM
I think that was in the scene where [character X, I'm blanking, help!] is speaking to Mallick Rel about his revenge on the Wickans, for being the last of his people. It was inferred in a few discussions that this people was the Jhistal.
It is perfectly monstrous the way people go about nowadays saying things against one, behind one's back, that are absolutely and entirely true. -- Oscar Wilde
"You would well know of that," Tavore said to him. "The Gedorian Falari cult of the Jhistal was eradicated in a similar manner by Emperor Kellanved, after all."
Also,
Deadhouse Gates said:
Aren's yawning gates...the Jhistal within. What does that mean? Jhistal, not a familiar word, not Seven Cities. Falari?
"Here is light. You will say that it is not a living entity, but you miss the point that it is more, not less. Without occupying space, it fills the universe. It nourishes everything, yet itself feeds upon destruction. We claim to control it, but does it not perhaps cultivate us as a source of food? May it not be that all wood grows so that it can be set ablaze, and that men and women are born to kindle fires?"
―Gene Wolfe, The Citadel of the Autarch
GingerBreadMan, on 18 August 2010 - 01:47 PM, said:
We have also seen that Ganoes and Tavore have not communicated much, they are not acting in concert...they just have similar morals and mindsets that have resulted in somewhat similar actions
IMO we have absolutely no idea how much brother and sister communicate - and if they do, how they do it. Tavore's seemingly constant awareness about what's going on globally, and her withdrawal from her officers and aide de camp at nights provides for lots of unmonitored time during which she could be talking with Ganoes.
OHA
This post has been edited by Old Hunch Arbat: 19 August 2010 - 03:44 AM
But, it's not unmonitored. QB and Bottle have both put spies in there, and she does nothing.
Trouble arrives when the opponents to such a system institute its extreme opposite, where individualism becomes godlike and sacrosanct, and no greater service to any other ideal (including community) is possible. In such a system rapacious greed thrives behind the guise of freedom, and the worst aspects of human nature come to the fore....
That is absolute conjecture as to why she could know what she knows, and how she knows what she knows. Further, it stretches believability to have Ganoes to be the whisper in her ear this entire time, when we have other possible explanations (her study of Kel and Dancer, knowledge of T'amber). It stretches further believabliity that this communication goes absolutely undetected with a high-mage of unknown power and someone with the relatively unknown powers of Bottle doing the spying.
Are they communicating through their minds? Are they both masters of Mockra?
This post has been edited by Luke Skywalker: 19 August 2010 - 04:02 AM
Trouble arrives when the opponents to such a system institute its extreme opposite, where individualism becomes godlike and sacrosanct, and no greater service to any other ideal (including community) is possible. In such a system rapacious greed thrives behind the guise of freedom, and the worst aspects of human nature come to the fore....
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