[GingerBreadMan]

Paran/Skinner will certainly be there, Paran pretty much HAS to be there and Skinner is now King of Chains..so I imagine the Crippled God will use him.

Tayschrenn is gone for the time being, I think....he did get swallowed up unexpectedly and even if he is still alive it should take him a bit to escape

Eres'al HAS to be there, she has been far to active to just disappear right before the biggest convergence in history

Menandore....not sure about her. I think she is gone


Kalam will be back, but I don't think Paran is going to be using him unless Shadowthrone is behind it.

Vorcan/Rallick are going to be centered on the Darujhistan/Tyrant storyline imo and Erikson is done with them

Tiam/Osserc will also make a return

I think Daseem will as well, ShadowThrone/Cotillion seemed to hint that they would talk to him after he had a bit of time to cool down and I imagine they will want his help with whatever deadly plan they have going on.

Imperial High Mage Tayschrenn, on 12 August 2010 - 02:24 PM, said:

Tayschrenn will come. Tavore anticipates him, given the fact she keeps Banaschar around as stated by QB.

Maybe he has picked up more power in the realm he was thrown in. Or that he somehow too ascended.... seems to happen a lot to Malazans lately

In any case.... epic magic.

She kept him around in case Tayschrenn wanted to get involved but things happened that seem to have taken him out of the game at least for the time being.

Hetan, on 12 August 2010 - 02:39 PM, said:

The deal with ST and Hood was to let their representatives into the refugium - why was Hood there - well because of Hedge.

Why did Hood care if Hedge got there?

I'm assuming Shadowthrone wanted an Azath there so I'm guessing he stabbed Menandore in the back by placing Quick Ben/Trull/Onrack in her way?

She assumed her son would help her against her sisters and Shadowthrone would assist her, instead her son turned his back on her and Shadowthrene sent in Quick Ben/Trull/Onrach to make sure the three went down and the Azath took hold?

But what did Hood want?

Why did he care about Hedge getting in there?

And why would Hood involve Shadowthrone in such a meeting(Shadowthrone couldn't help him get Hedge in there)

Whatever Hood wanted seemed to be a different topic than the deal Shadowthrone and Menandore made

Tattersail, on 12 August 2010 - 01:16 PM, said:

• leoman the flails? he has set something up withg the queen of dreams
• oserc? we haven't seen much of him but if the liosan are involved then maybe he will appear?
• Traveller? it would be good if he turns up and has an amazing fight with skinner or hood!!

in Memories of Ice, Rake mentions that the CG will be without mercy and that he, Brood, Queen of Dreams and Hood all agreed on something 1200 years ago..

So I am guessing the Queen of Dreams is going to be a HUGE player in this book, after all her aspect is outside of time and thus she has some kind of special insight into the future that can probably only be matched by Shadowthrone(who walked the Azath, also outside of time)

Abyss, on 12 August 2010 - 04:28 PM, said:

In MoI there is an alliance between Rath QoD and Rath Shadowthrone, implying an alliance between those gods. In HoC Kalam fumes that Cotillion should have stuck a knife in the CG at the last chaining. In TB the QoD 'collects' Leoman and Dunsparrow post Yghatan. Crockus sees this in a vision. At the end of TB Shadowthrone drops Kalam in the Azath and comments to the effect 'my collection grows'. Apsalar, Crockus and Kalam are all agents of Cotillion at various points. Because he is a god, Cotillion has been all over the worlds and warrens fairly quickly. He has moved people from place to place. Apsalar has used Shadow to travel entire continents.

So there you have it - the team, the motive, the means. Utter speculation based on bits and pieces here and there and nothing more. Tho more than bollox.


- Abyss, could, of course, be wrong. really. it happens.

I'm not sure if Crokus will show up but I am certain Kalam will and I wouldn't be shocked if Apsalar did.

As to Shadowthrone/Queen of Dreams...both seem to love to stay behind the scenes, both have some ability to forsee the future and Pust did live in a temple formerly dedicated to the Queen of Dreams..

Ulrik, on 12 August 2010 - 06:30 PM, said:

You forgot one really strong uberkilla.
Kilava.
Tool is "destroyed". Refugium in danger. Olar Ethil plays with Imass like puppets.
I want and I expect to see Kilava really angry with all her power unleashed. Mmm, yeah... (dreamy look into nowhere)

I expect this, some kind of showdown between Kilava and Olar but also Kilava and Tool.

worrywort, on 12 August 2010 - 07:52 PM, said:

Not another GRRM thread!!!


JK. But I think Heboric and perhaps The Great Ravens will have roles in the finale. The latter have a unique connection to CG. Also, since Fener is in the Errant's back pocket, he may have something to say to both Treach and the Wolves.

Heboric and the Green Giants will be pivotal, whatever they are is pretty damn important.

I like the Great Ravens, if the Cg IS freed won't they need to return some of the magic they ate/stole from him?

This post has been edited by GingerBreadMan: 13 August 2010 - 03:58 AM

[T'renn]

oops

This post has been edited by Imperial High Mage Tayschrenn: 14 August 2010 - 07:18 AM

[T'renn]

Ginger bread man :Paran/Skinner will certainly be there, Paran pretty much HAS to be there and Skinner is now King of Chains..so I imagine the Crippled God will use him.

Tayschrenn is gone for the time being, I think....he did get swallowed up unexpectedly and even if he is still alive it should take him a bit to escape

Eres'al HAS to be there, she has been far to active to just disappear right before the biggest convergence in history

Menandore....not sure about her. I think she is gone


Kalam will be back, but I don't think Paran is going to be using him unless Shadowthrone is behind it.

Vorcan/Rallick are going to be centered on the Darujhistan/Tyrant storyline imo and Erikson is done with them

Tiam/Osserc will also make a return

I think Daseem will as well, ShadowThrone/Cotillion seemed to hint that they would talk to him after he had a bit of time to cool down and I imagine they will want his help with whatever deadly plan they have going on.


Imperial High Mage Tayschrenn, on 12 August 2010 - 04:24 PM, said:

Tayschrenn will come. Tavore anticipates him, given the fact she keeps Banaschar around as stated by QB.

Maybe he has picked up more power in the realm he was thrown in. Or that he somehow too ascended.... seems to happen a lot to Malazans lately

In any case.... epic magic.


She kept him around in case Tayschrenn wanted to get involved but things happened that seem to have taken him out of the game at least for the time being.




RotCG is 1167 of burns sleep. DoD around 1170. Toc too was thrown in a rent and came out in months. And he was not the greatest sorcerer of his generation....

[T'renn]

oops again

This post has been edited by Imperial High Mage Tayschrenn: 14 August 2010 - 07:18 AM

[Tapper]

Regarding my suspicion of Kalam helping ST/ stabbing QB: by being in an Azath, Kalam is at a junction of realms. It is probably the fastest way to travel bar none.

Regarding the stabbing: as Abyss said, but I also think we've seen cracks emerge in their relationship over the last books Kalam was in, they started out as friends and allies, but since the start of the books, QB just has too many secrets, revealed knowledge and power he didn't have before, and that has only increased while Kalam was imprisoned. Kalam may well have trouble recognizing QB as his friend nowadays, and he has not many friends left in the world anyway.

As for the reason: in some vaguely disturbing way, it would not be a total surprise to me if there comes a moment in TCG where QB cackles with glee and reveals a mastermind plan to take over the world and the warrens. After all, according to WJ, he was the second smartest mortal after Kruppe, and unlike Kruppe, he has ambition.

[Gothos]

I'm hoping for new parts for my namesake here. And Kallor, but I've got a vague feeling he stayed in Darujhishattan, can't really recall right now.

Oh, and... Silverfox went off to get killed in Assail, right?

[Tattersail_]

Quote

I'm not sure if Crokus will show up but I am certain Kalam will and I wouldn't be shocked if Apsalar did.

As to Shadowthrone/Queen of Dreams...both seem to love to stay behind the scenes, both have some ability to forsee the future and Pust did live in a temple formerly dedicated to the Queen of Dreams..

I really like the way you remembered pust's temple in "Raruku"? was a temple dedicated to the queen of dreams before Shadow. This is very interesting to thin upon!!

Quote

JK. But I think Heboric and perhaps The Great Ravens will have roles in the finale. The latter have a unique connection to CG. Also, since Fener is in the Errant's back pocket, he may have something to say to both Treach and the Wolves.

Heboric and the Green Giants will be pivotal, whatever they are is pretty damn important.

I think so too, now I am half way through RCG as I wanted to read these after the series, and the magicians in the otarataral mines are digging and have discovered something, if we do not finds out what it is, do you think it will be related to heboric? no spoilers please just speculation

Quote

I like the Great Ravens, if the Cg IS freed won't they need to return some of the magic they ate/stole from him?

Maybe the crippled god was fundamental in creating the great ravens, and that they use chaos as their warrens but I don't think they will feature, there would be no point to it, we haven't seen or heard of them for ages!!

[Tattersail_]

Tapper, on 13 August 2010 - 07:46 AM, said:

Regarding my suspicion of Kalam helping ST/ stabbing QB: by being in an Azath, Kalam is at a junction of realms. It is probably the fastest way to travel bar none.

Regarding the stabbing: as Abyss said, but I also think we've seen cracks emerge in their relationship over the last books Kalam was in, they started out as friends and allies, but since the start of the books, QB just has too many secrets, revealed knowledge and power he didn't have before, and that has only increased while Kalam was imprisoned. Kalam may well have trouble recognizing QB as his friend nowadays, and he has not many friends left in the world anyway.

As for the reason: in some vaguely disturbing way, it would not be a total surprise to me if there comes a moment in TCG where QB cackles with glee and reveals a mastermind plan to take over the world and the warrens. After all, according to WJ, he was the second smartest mortal after Kruppe, and unlike Kruppe, he has ambition.

Quick Ben being smart may have a great role in the slide of things. He has outsmarted Shadowthrone twice? Once when he was high priest and another when he went in for a bargain with him. If ST has an overall plan then you can bet your bottom dollar that QB is countering it. QB is not evil though, he doesn't like what is happening to Burn, and I think his motives are overall good, where as I don't think ST is. In the whole scheme of things we have TCG making schemes, ST making Schemes and QB's scheme and I think they are manipulating everyone else. The theme for this book is heroes, so who will save the day? Well how about this, Kalam saving QB as his shaved knuckle in the hole? It's always been QB saving Kalam, how about the other way around for a change? They are too close too fight, they have survived so much together.

[Kanubis]

That's all the really powerful folk discussed then.

Personally I expect Shurq to stumble out of the ocean, pissed off at being all skanky again, and do... something. Do something because she's pissed off, with no actual concept of how important that... something will be.

And then Ublala will shag her again anyway, cos he's totally in love with her and not shallow enough to be put off by minor details like salt water leaking from her ear and a little crab scuttling out of her nostrils. 

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Imperial High Mage Tayschrenn, on 13 August 2010 - 06:34 AM, said:

Ginger bread man :Paran/Skinner will certainly be there, Paran pretty much HAS to be there and Skinner is now King of Chains..so I imagine the Crippled God will use him.

Tayschrenn is gone for the time being, I think....he did get swallowed up unexpectedly and even if he is still alive it should take him a bit to escape

Eres'al HAS to be there, she has been far to active to just disappear right before the biggest convergence in history

Menandore....not sure about her. I think she is gone


Kalam will be back, but I don't think Paran is going to be using him unless Shadowthrone is behind it.

Vorcan/Rallick are going to be centered on the Darujhistan/Tyrant storyline imo and Erikson is done with them

Tiam/Osserc will also make a return

I think Daseem will as well, ShadowThrone/Cotillion seemed to hint that they would talk to him after he had a bit of time to cool down and I imagine they will want his help with whatever deadly plan they have going on.


Imperial High Mage Tayschrenn, on 12 August 2010 - 04:24 PM, said:

Tayschrenn will come. Tavore anticipates him, given the fact she keeps Banaschar around as stated by QB.

Maybe he has picked up more power in the realm he was thrown in. Or that he somehow too ascended.... seems to happen a lot to Malazans lately

In any case.... epic magic.


She kept him around in case Tayschrenn wanted to get involved but things happened that seem to have taken him out of the game at least for the time being.




RotCG is 1167 of burns sleep. DoD around 1170. Toc too was thrown in a rent and came out in months. And he was not the greatest sorcerer of his generation....

Toc came out because of the intervention of a god older than the Elder God. I don't think Tayschrenn would be so lucky but then, he is an incredibly powerful mage and could get out on his own

[Silk]

But Tayschren is QB's shaved knuckle... so it could be as simple as QB utilising an acorn to pull him back.... along with Tay having been someone who always looked at the bigger picture as was pointed in RotCG . So he could have anticipated all of this and put the plans into place that would get him to where he needed to be.

[GingerBreadMan]

Tapper, on 13 August 2010 - 07:46 AM, said:

As for the reason: in some vaguely disturbing way, it would not be a total surprise to me if there comes a moment in TCG where QB cackles with glee and reveals a mastermind plan to take over the world and the warrens. After all, according to WJ, he was the second smartest mortal after Kruppe, and unlike Kruppe, he has ambition.

Quick Ben is smart but I would be VERY disappointed if he was revealed to be some master strategist trying to take over the world.

Throughout the series he has been depicted as smart, slippery but also short sighted and preferring it that way.

As to being second only to Kruppe, I think that is a bit misleading.

For one, Kruppe has the advantage of prophecy.

For another, Quick Ben fails more often than not...if he was so smart he wouldn't be consistently failing and getting in positions where he was nearly killed.

It's actually one of my pet peeves with the series, the way he is always described as super intelligent and yet he is always swinging and missing only to rely on his great grasp of Warrens to escape.

Tattersail, on 13 August 2010 - 08:23 AM, said:

I think so too, now I am half way through RCG as I wanted to read these after the series, and the magicians in the otarataral mines are digging and have discovered something, if we do not finds out what it is, do you think it will be related to heboric? no spoilers please just speculation

Keep reading RoC

Quote

Maybe the crippled god was fundamental in creating the great ravens, and that they use chaos as their warrens but I don't think they will feature, there would be no point to it, we haven't seen or heard of them for ages!!

We saw them with Rake..or to be more specific with Spinnock.

I think they will continue to play a part, they did eat/take pieces of his power so how can he be freed and kicked out of the world without them playing a part?

Tattersail, on 13 August 2010 - 08:31 AM, said:

Quick Ben being smart may have a great role in the slide of things. He has outsmarted Shadowthrone twice? Once when he was high priest and another when he went in for a bargain with him. If ST has an overall plan then you can bet your bottom dollar that QB is countering it. QB is not evil though, he doesn't like what is happening to Burn, and I think his motives are overall good, where as I don't think ST is. In the whole scheme of things we have TCG making schemes, ST making Schemes and QB's scheme and I think they are manipulating everyone else. The theme for this book is heroes, so who will save the day? Well how about this, Kalam saving QB as his shaved knuckle in the hole? It's always been QB saving Kalam, how about the other way around for a change? They are too close too fight, they have survived so much together.

Did he really outsmart Shadowthrone though?

Quick Ben admits in DoD that "The times I'd thought I'd worked round him, beat him clean, it turned out he had been playing me all along".

More to the point, when comparing intelligence look at intent and result.

Shadowthrone became Emperor, God and is moving on to whatever the next stage is.

Quick Ben seems happy working as squad mage with his best buddies...fine, to each his own.

But then they all die, despite his being a High Mage and so smart...

He doesn't anticipate or counter events at Pale, is just trying to stay alive in Darujhistan, is the brains behind the failed attempt on Laseen's life etc..

Really for someone so smart he seems to be constantly on the run, his allies are constantly slaughtered and he is the only one who survives.

Silk, on 13 August 2010 - 12:25 PM, said:

But Tayschren is QB's shaved knuckle... so it could be as simple as QB utilising an acorn to pull him back.... along with Tay having been someone who always looked at the bigger picture as was pointed in RotCG . So he could have anticipated all of this and put the plans into place that would get him to where he needed to be.

If it was that simple to escape Chaos, would it really be that frightening?

Seems like a couple High Mages would "tie" one another to a bunch of acorns and take turns diving into Chaos and pulling each other out when things got hairy.

[Silk]

However not all High Mages are blessed with Tays ability as he is the pre-eminent mage of his day ... well at least according to Cowl that is and in conjunction with QB and his abilities (ones that Tay does not under estimate) it could still be doable

[Tattersail_]

is Tays more powerful than QB do you think?

[Silk]

depends on if you refer to ICE Tay or SE Tay ......they seem to be different by author and in ICE's case probably yes... in SE's maybe not

However based on all the experiences and such that both have been through.... I'd say level pegging as I don't think Cowl knows who QB is compared to Tay as I think Cowl and Tay may have been contemporaries at some stage

[Lister of Smeg]

I'm certain Gothos has a big role to play. Didn't SE once say of all the characters in the books he would choose Gothos as his "shaved knuckle in the hole"? Plus he is Icarium's father. I anticipate a family reunion coming up. And then there is his link to the Refugium Azath. He used up two favours owed to him by Elder Gods so he could hold onto Scabby's soul and what does he do with it? Gives it to Ulshan Pral. Why? Did he anticipate the creation of an Azath house at the gates to SD? Gothos must be important.

Paran also must be involved. He's far too important to just vanish for the finale.

[GingerBreadMan]

Tattersail, on 18 August 2010 - 02:52 PM, said:

is Tays more powerful than QB do you think?

For the majority of the series I would say "Yes".

But as the series goes on, Quick Ben appears to be "stretching himself" over and over to the point that he will rival all the Gods if he appears in The Crippled God.

He used to be a cunning and slipper squad mage, now he is a very powerful High Mage who walks around decimating thousands of enemies in the blink of an eye.

Makes you wonder why more mages don't "Stretch themselves" on purpose, shouldn't Quick have been "Stretched" to the breaking point after a couple years serving with the Bridgeburners in the middle of unending war?

[Sinisdar Toste]

GingerBreadMan, on 19 August 2010 - 05:16 AM, said:

Tattersail, on 18 August 2010 - 02:52 PM, said:

is Tays more powerful than QB do you think?

For the majority of the series I would say "Yes".

But as the series goes on, Quick Ben appears to be "stretching himself" over and over to the point that he will rival all the Gods if he appears in The Crippled God.

He used to be a cunning and slipper squad mage, now he is a very powerful High Mage who walks around decimating thousands of enemies in the blink of an eye.

Makes you wonder why more mages don't "Stretch themselves" on purpose, shouldn't Quick have been "Stretched" to the breaking point after a couple years serving with the Bridgeburners in the middle of unending war?

well, if QB (or anybody) went around stretching himself whenever he wanted a power-up, someone (probably brood) would have to notice the sharp increase in his enemies destructive power and say, "pardon me cowl, could you take three of your veils and surgically remove that upstart bastard?" meanwhile, quicks been "stretching" himself constantly and is constantly exhausted and therefore taken unawares.

... in peacetime, when there's no enemies about, i imagine that's just what mages like to do.

This post has been edited by Sinisdar Toste: 19 August 2010 - 05:37 AM

[Khellendros]

I think Toc still has a huge part to play - not only does death not stop him from being around, but more than one god has an interest in him - perhaps we'll see him leading the armies of the Wolves of Winter - and there's still the matter of a final final reunion with Tool. Somehow. Surely.

And my bet is, despite things that have been said in previous books - we will see a regular living Toc by the end of it all, going off to live a normal life and write some more poems. The dude deserves it!

[Silk]

If any other character with the exception of Dassem was ever to be labled lord of tragedy ... it would be Toc the younger.....