[Studlock]

" Samar Dev stopped listening, since she had heard Puddy's booasts before, and held her gaze on the women the Meckros warrior had called a Seguleh. First Empire word, that. The Anvil. Strange name for a people--probably some remnant clan from the colonoal period of Dessimbelackis's empire. A fragment of an army, settled on some pleasant island as their reward for some great victory--those armies were each named, and "the Anvil" was but a variation on a theme common among the First Empire military. The mask, however, was a unique affectation. Gadalanak said all Seguleh were so attired, and something in the glyphs and scratches on those enamel masks indicated rank. But if those marks are writing, it's not First Empire. Not even close. Curious. Too bad she never says anything."

RG page 439 Tor edition

I found this passage a very interesting peak into the Seguleh history. And if it to be believed I think it explains why the Seguleh are so awesome at fighting. They were deprived from an already skilled army (shown through them getting an entire island as an reward) who through sparing kept there skills up incase the First Empire ever needed them for another campagin, though through time there orginal purpose in forgotten and the sparing becomes a key part of there culture, and as a way to keep track of the ranks they start wearing mask, which lead to there almost completely communication through body language. It may be far fetched but i think it would be an interesting take on the "unstoppable warrior cult".

[Aptorian]

You're getting things confused.

Samar Dev is just theorising. She doesn't actually know the story of the Seguleh, or for that matter the ancient meaning of Shield Anvil, T'orruld Seguleh (sp?). T'orruld Seguleh is a religious tittle and apparently it has been since the Elder Times.

The Seguleh were once an army of a great and powerful Tyrant that ruled in Darujistan, most likely the first Tyrant of Darujistan in a long succession that kind of mirrors the myths of Ancient Rome. This Tyrant at some point made two groupings, ( I'm assuming, maybe the split happened after he disappeared, anyway) that split was that there was a Mage cadre that called them selves the T'orruld Cabal, The Shield (Those are the sneaky undying mages from GotM) and an army that called them selves the Seguleh, the Anvil.

According to the Second, the undead Seguleh from BH, some kind of madness gripped the Seguleh, which caused them to start wearing the masks, and the reason to why they are staying on the Seguleh Island is apparently because they are waiting. Whether they are waiting to serve or to fight is unknown.

This post has been edited by Aptorian: 30 July 2010 - 08:56 PM

[Studlock]

Oh, is the Tyrant in TtH? But the whole T'orruld Seguleh thing make more sense since both are based on Genabackis and the First Empire came from Seven Cities.

[Aptorian]

There is "news" on the Tyrant in TTH but I wont spoil you with details.

I think you should be thinking more on the nature of the Pantheons and the Elder Tile system than the First Empire.in regards of the meaning of Shield Anvil

[Studlock]

Like Mortal Sword and the like for the Warrens? So the entire army was what the Elder equivalent of Shield Anvil?

[Aptorian]

I think that the Darujistan Mages and the Seguleh Army are subversions, or evolutions of the original concept of the Shield Anvil, What it all means beats me, I guess we'll have to wait and see until Esslemont picks up on it.

[Tattersail_]

Aptorian, on 30 July 2010 - 08:54 PM, said:

You're getting things confused.

Samar Dev is just theorising. She doesn't actually know the story of the Seguleh, or for that matter the ancient meaning of Shield Anvil, T'orruld Seguleh (sp?). T'orruld Seguleh is a religious tittle and apparently it has been since the Elder Times.

The Seguleh were once an army of a great and powerful Tyrant that ruled in Darujistan, most likely the first Tyrant of Darujistan in a long succession that kind of mirrors the myths of Ancient Rome. This Tyrant at some point made two groupings, ( I'm assuming, maybe the split happened after he disappeared, anyway) that split was that there was a Mage cadre that called them selves the T'orruld Cabal, The Shield (Those are the sneaky undying mages from GotM) and an army that called them selves the Seguleh, the Anvil.

According to the Second, the undead Seguleh from BH, some kind of madness gripped the Seguleh, which caused them to start wearing the masks, and the reason to why they are staying on the Seguleh Island is apparently because they are waiting. Whether they are waiting to serve or to fight is unknown.

If the T'orrud Cabal and T'orrud segulah are the shield and the anvil and both are as strong as this, then the destraint and the mortal sword must be AMAZING!! We know the tyrant must be very strong, so maybe "dissembleckis" :S does this mean the tyrant, whomever it could be would be the mortal sword? or am i just clutching at straws?

[Quick Bill]

I don't know what you are clutching at, but I do know one thing: the Seguleh are the most bad ass mother fuckers in the whole series. I laughed my ass off at the punitive army of three. Not to mention that their children fight most conflicts for 'amusement'. Hell they gave Rake a bloody nose.

[Abyss]

The Pretty, on 30 July 2010 - 09:36 PM, said:

...So the entire army was what the Elder equivalent of Shield Anvil?

Y'know... follow this line of thought a bit and the implications are kind of staggering. I'll restrict myself to RG and earlier, but by RG we know that Gods/Ascendants who invest a human as their MS, destriant or sheild anvil obtain a powerful tool, but also open themselves up to a certain level of vulnerability.

But if an ascendant were to spread the power around an entire army, and then ensure that army was one of the best... less vulnerability and a seriously powerful set of servants.

Mind, the Grey Swords in MoI... they got clobbered at Pale at more or less the same time that their god Fener was de-warrened. One could argue the two things are coincidental but more likely the two things made both the god and his followers more vulnerable.

In the case of the Seguleh, we don't know the status of the Darujhistan Tyrant-King-thing, but if his invested army continued to grow in power even while he was out of the picture, he might actually benefit huge.

- Abyss, speculative.

[Nemorensis]

Aren't both Seguleh and T'orrud Cabal failsafes against the return of the Tyrant? I remember reading about it, but not when and where. The Seguleh island could be just another colony of the First Empire like Lether.
And I seem to recall the Second had something uncouth to say about that, I just don't remember where exactly.

[Abyss]

Nemorensis, on 02 September 2010 - 06:21 PM, said:

Aren't both Seguleh and T'orrud Cabal failsafes against the return of the Tyrant?...And I seem to recall the Second had something uncouth to say about that, I just don't remember where exactly.

The Second's rant is very unclear - they could be failsafes, or they could be servants-in-waiting.

[Quick Bill]

Abyss, on 02 September 2010 - 06:01 PM, said:

The Pretty, on 30 July 2010 - 09:36 PM, said:

...So the entire army was what the Elder equivalent of Shield Anvil?

Y'know... follow this line of thought a bit and the implications are kind of staggering. I'll restrict myself to RG and earlier, but by RG we know that Gods/Ascendants who invest a human as their MS, destriant or sheild anvil obtain a powerful tool, but also open themselves up to a certain level of vulnerability.

But if an ascendant were to spread the power around an entire army, and then ensure that army was one of the best... less vulnerability and a seriously powerful set of servants.

Mind, the Grey Swords in MoI... they got clobbered at Pale at more or less the same time that their god Fener was de-warrened. One could argue the two things are coincidental but more likely the two things made both the god and his followers more vulnerable.

In the case of the Seguleh, we don't know the status of the Darujhistan Tyrant-King-thing, but if his invested army continued to grow in power even while he was out of the picture, he might actually benefit huge.

- Abyss, speculative.

Interesting ... but on the point of Fener (and this is an aside). Remember the following from MoI. According to Rake the downfall of Fener began with the Claw attempting to reduce Heboric's influence. Cutting off his hands had a profound negative impact on Fener. Thus, the Malazan's were partially, if not fully responsible for the downfall of Fener, which in turn weakened the Grey Swords at Capustan and contributed to the destruction of the city. Massive irony there; if you recall the Greyswords underestimated the Malazan's prior to their arrival at Caputsan, upon seeing them Iktovian laments the fact that if the Grey Swords had held the Malazan's could have easily broken the siege.

'Fener is lost to us,' Rake said. 'Lost? What do you mean?'
'Torn from his realm, now striding the mortal earth.'
'How?'
There was a grim smile in Rake's tone as he explained. 'By a Malazan. A
once-priest of Fener, a victim of the Reve.'
'Which means?'
'His hands were ritually severed. The power of the Reve then sends those hands to
the hooves of Fener himself. The ritual must be the expression of purest justice, but
this one wasn't. Rather, there was a perceived need to reduce the influence of Fener,
and in particular that High Priest, by agents of the Empire—likely the Claw. You
mentioned the discouraging of cults within the army. Perhaps that was a
factor—my knowledge is not complete, alas. Certainly the High Priest's Penchant
for historical analysis was another—he had completed an investigation that
concluded that the Empress Laseen in fact failed in her assassination of the
Emperor and Dancer. Granted, she got the throne she so badly wanted, but neither
Kellanved nor Dancer actually died. Instead, they ascended.'
'I can see why Surly's back would crawl at that revelation.'
'Surly?'
'The Empress Laseen. Surly was her old name.'
'In any case, those severed hands were as poison to Fener. He could not touch them,
nor could he remove them from his realm. He burned the tattoos announcing his
denial upon the high priest's skin, and so sealed the virulent power of the hands, at
least for the time being. And that should have been that. Eventually, the priest
would die, and his spirit would come to Fener to retrieve what had been cruelly and
wrongfully taken from him. That spirit would then become the weapon of Fener's
wrath, his vengeance upon the priests of the fouled temple, and indeed upon the
Claw and the Empress herself. A dark storm awaited the Malazan Empire,
Whiskeyjack.'
'But something's happened.'
'Aye. The High Priest has, by design or chance, come into contact with the Warren
of Chaos—an object, perhaps, forged within that warren. The protective seal
around his severed hands was obliterated by that vast, uncontrolled surge of power.
And, finding Fener, those hands… pushed.'

This post has been edited by Quick Bill: 02 September 2010 - 06:54 PM

[Abyss]

You're absolutely right (and quote fu STRONG) - i'm just speculating that the relationship between Fener and the GSs may have ultimately weakened both sides in the end, but a variation on that relationship could benefit both the ascendent and the army.

[Nemorensis]

Abyss, on 02 September 2010 - 06:36 PM, said:

Nemorensis, on 02 September 2010 - 06:21 PM, said:

Aren't both Seguleh and T'orrud Cabal failsafes against the return of the Tyrant?...And I seem to recall the Second had something uncouth to say about that, I just don't remember where exactly.

The Second's rant is very unclear - they could be failsafes, or they could be servants-in-waiting.

Quote

‘The fever zeal still grips my mortal kin, does it? Idiots! The Tyrant’s army still holds sway in the city,
then?’
‘Who? What? Darujhistan is ruled by a council. We have no army—’
‘Brilliant insanity! No Seguleh in the city?’
‘No! Just... stories. Legends, I mean.’
‘So where are my masked stick-pivoting compatriots hiding?’
‘An island, it’s said, far to the south, off the coast, beyond Morn—’
‘Morn! Now the sense of it comes to me. They are being held in readiness. Darujhistan’s council –
mages one and all, yes? Undying, secretive, paranoid mages! Crouching low, lest the Tyrant returns, as
one day he must! Returns, looking for his army! Hah, a council!’

After rereading that a few times that does indeed read somewhat ominous. Especially the bolded parts. Whoops...

[Abyss]

Nemorensis, on 02 September 2010 - 08:04 PM, said:

...After rereading that a few times that does indeed read somewhat ominous. Especially the bolded parts. Whoops...

Yep, but also ambiguous. Readiness to serve the Tyrant or oppose him? Looking for his army because they were told to stand by or because he wants revenge? same goes for the council... paranoid mages because they are eager for their Lord's return or scared out of their minds?

- Abyss, reps for quote fu.

[Nemorensis]

MODGOD NOTICE OF TtH SPOILERS DELETED.
THIS IS THE RG FORUM.

This post has been edited by Abyss: 02 September 2010 - 10:51 PM
Reason for edit: TtH spoilers

[champ]

Abyss, on 02 September 2010 - 08:32 PM, said:

Nemorensis, on 02 September 2010 - 08:04 PM, said:

...After rereading that a few times that does indeed read somewhat ominous. Especially the bolded parts. Whoops...

Yep, but also ambiguous. Readiness to serve the Tyrant or oppose him? Looking for his army because they were told to stand by or because he wants revenge? same goes for the council... paranoid mages because they are eager for their Lord's return or scared out of their minds?

- Abyss, reps for quote fu.

for me... reading between the lines...

Spoiler

the cabal i reckon are scared out of their minds, maybe a betrayal in the past to get rid of the tyrant, as for the seguleh, again, i read it as in they're being held in readiness to oppose him, kept out of the way on an island so no one/thing can deminish them before they accomplish their task of stopping the tyrant once and for all! plus who could hope to stop a whole army of seguleh, that is a pretty scary army right there!

edit

Modgod notice of warning/ref to upthread spoiler removed as said spoiler also removed.

This post has been edited by Abyss: 05 October 2010 - 03:09 PM

[grey_tinman]

Nemorensis, on 02 September 2010 - 08:04 PM, said:

Abyss, on 02 September 2010 - 06:36 PM, said:

Nemorensis, on 02 September 2010 - 06:21 PM, said:

Aren't both Seguleh and T'orrud Cabal failsafes against the return of the Tyrant?...And I seem to recall the Second had something uncouth to say about that, I just don't remember where exactly.

The Second's rant is very unclear - they could be failsafes, or they could be servants-in-waiting.

Quote

'The fever zeal still grips my mortal kin, does it? Idiots! The Tyrant's army still holds sway in the city,
then?'
'Who? What? Darujhistan is ruled by a council. We have no army—'
'Brilliant insanity! No Seguleh in the city?'
'No! Just... stories. Legends, I mean.'
'So where are my masked stick-pivoting compatriots hiding?'
'An island, it's said, far to the south, off the coast, beyond Morn—'
'Morn! Now the sense of it comes to me. They are being held in readiness. Darujhistan's council –
mages one and all, yes? Undying, secretive, paranoid mages! Crouching low, lest the Tyrant returns, as
one day he must! Returns, looking for his army! Hah, a council!'

After rereading that a few times that does indeed read somewhat ominous. Especially the bolded parts. Whoops...

Where did this quote come from? I can't remember reading it (though I'm sure I did).

[Bauchelain the Evil]

It's from TBH. Hood's Soldier who's the Seguleh Second meets Cutter and Heboric and has a chat with them

[Tattersail_]

Quick Bill, on 02 September 2010 - 06:44 PM, said:

Abyss, on 02 September 2010 - 06:01 PM, said:

The Pretty, on 30 July 2010 - 09:36 PM, said:

...So the entire army was what the Elder equivalent of Shield Anvil?

Y'know... follow this line of thought a bit and the implications are kind of staggering. I'll restrict myself to RG and earlier, but by RG we know that Gods/Ascendants who invest a human as their MS, destriant or sheild anvil obtain a powerful tool, but also open themselves up to a certain level of vulnerability.

But if an ascendant were to spread the power around an entire army, and then ensure that army was one of the best... less vulnerability and a seriously powerful set of servants.

Mind, the Grey Swords in MoI... they got clobbered at Pale at more or less the same time that their god Fener was de-warrened. One could argue the two things are coincidental but more likely the two things made both the god and his followers more vulnerable.

In the case of the Seguleh, we don't know the status of the Darujhistan Tyrant-King-thing, but if his invested army continued to grow in power even while he was out of the picture, he might actually benefit huge.

- Abyss, speculative.

Interesting ... but on the point of Fener (and this is an aside). Remember the following from MoI. According to Rake the downfall of Fener began with the Claw attempting to reduce Heboric's influence. Cutting off his hands had a profound negative impact on Fener. Thus, the Malazan's were partially, if not fully responsible for the downfall of Fener, which in turn weakened the Grey Swords at Capustan and contributed to the destruction of the city. Massive irony there; if you recall the Greyswords underestimated the Malazan's prior to their arrival at Caputsan, upon seeing them Iktovian laments the fact that if the Grey Swords had held the Malazan's could have easily broken the siege.

'Fener is lost to us,' Rake said. 'Lost? What do you mean?'
'Torn from his realm, now striding the mortal earth.'
'How?'
There was a grim smile in Rake's tone as he explained. 'By a Malazan. A
once-priest of Fener, a victim of the Reve.'
'Which means?'
'His hands were ritually severed. The power of the Reve then sends those hands to
the hooves of Fener himself. The ritual must be the expression of purest justice, but
this one wasn't. Rather, there was a perceived need to reduce the influence of Fener,
and in particular that High Priest, by agents of the Empire—likely the Claw. You
mentioned the discouraging of cults within the army. Perhaps that was a
factor—my knowledge is not complete, alas. Certainly the High Priest's Penchant
for historical analysis was another—he had completed an investigation that
concluded that the Empress Laseen in fact failed in her assassination of the
Emperor and Dancer. Granted, she got the throne she so badly wanted, but neither
Kellanved nor Dancer actually died. Instead, they ascended.'
'I can see why Surly's back would crawl at that revelation.'
'Surly?'
'The Empress Laseen. Surly was her old name.'
'In any case, those severed hands were as poison to Fener. He could not touch them,
nor could he remove them from his realm. He burned the tattoos announcing his
denial upon the high priest's skin, and so sealed the virulent power of the hands, at
least for the time being. And that should have been that. Eventually, the priest
would die, and his spirit would come to Fener to retrieve what had been cruelly and
wrongfully taken from him. That spirit would then become the weapon of Fener's
wrath, his vengeance upon the priests of the fouled temple, and indeed upon the
Claw and the Empress herself. A dark storm awaited the Malazan Empire,
Whiskeyjack.'
'But something's happened.'
'Aye. The High Priest has, by design or chance, come into contact with the Warren
of Chaos—an object, perhaps, forged within that warren. The protective seal
around his severed hands was obliterated by that vast, uncontrolled surge of power.
And, finding Fener, those hands… pushed.'

i don't know if below should be spoilered or not as it is just specualtion, however, i relates to shadows motives and their overall plots, this passage above seemed interesting to me about their goals and complex chain of events

Spoiler

Does this not also sound like cottilion and ammanas knew what would happen with Fener? They were at the last chaining and may have wanted him removed?