[Bottle Service]

I know there's been a lot of topics about him but they all seem to be in forums I dare not open, spoilers and such. So I figured this was a nice place to put my question/theory.

Anyway, my theory goes like this. Dassem is obviously alive and well (maybe not well, but alive), therefore following the pattern of this ridiculously extensive and complicated series it is safe to assume we've read about him whether we knew it or not. Way back early on in the series (can't remember the book) I suspected that the curious man who showed up with Cutter and Apsalar to defend the throne of Shadow was him. Now that I've read NoK and am in the middle of RotCG, I am almost entirely sure that Dassem Ultor is really

Spoiler

Traveller

Am I crazy or what?

[Thelomen Toblerone]

Spoiler

No, you're not crazy. You are in fact 100% correct.

Despite what Brood might claim (*cough* eye colour *cough*)


Come on TT~Bubba

[D'rek]

Giant spoiler there, TT.

Bottle Service, here's my response for when the above is edited: there's no way we can answer that yes or no. Obviously Traveller is a bit of a mysterioso. Either he is Dassem Ultor, and confirming that is a big spoiler, or he isn't and revealing that you are wrong spoilers one of: the identity of Traveller, supposing of course he has another identity, and a negation of a possible thing DU is currently doing. They are indeed both Dal Honese and good sword-fighters, though as TT said above, they do have different eye color. Plus some of their background infos don't line up well together.

So you'll just have to read on and find out if you are wrong or not. I will assure you that either Traveller, Dassem Ultor or both will show up in future novels and you will get an answer. Or go to a later book forum, but as of NoK this is a no-dice.

This post has been edited by D'rek: 19 July 2010 - 03:25 AM

[Johnny Phoenix]

I'm on NoK in the novels and Reapers Gale in the book but so far I don't see how Traveler could possibly not be Dassem. There's Cotilions seeming recognition of him, a reference made to him saying that originally it was "always the three of them", he's Dal Honese and very moody and then there's the soldier from Drift Avalii at the hanged man in BH who talks about Traveler and Temper thinks of how familiar that fighting style of his was (obviously referring to Dassem). There's probably a few other hints I'm forgetting and from what I hear more hints in RotCG.

The eye colour thing doesn't seem like a strong enough arguement. Maybe they changed due to ascendancy. Or maybe its just a continuity error, it wouldn't be Eriksons first.

If Erikson reveals this character as anyone other than Dassem I think it would be somewhat of a slap in the face.

[D'rek]

 Johnny_Phoenix, on 19 July 2010 - 03:04 AM, said:

I'm on NoK in the novels and Reapers Gale in the book but so far I don't see how Traveler could possibly not be Dassem. There's Cotilions seeming recognition of him, a reference made to him saying that originally it was "always the three of them", he's Dal Honese and very moody and then there's the soldier from Drift Avalii at the hanged man in BH who talks about Traveler and Temper thinks of how familiar that fighting style of his was (obviously referring to Dassem). There's probably a few other hints I'm forgetting and from what I hear more hints in RotCG.

The eye colour thing doesn't seem like a strong enough arguement. Maybe they changed due to ascendancy. Or maybe its just a continuity error, it wouldn't be Eriksons first.

If Erikson reveals this character as anyone other than Dassem I think it would be somewhat of a slap in the face.

Well I don't want anyone to be slapped in the face, so:

-Cotillion is a god, I'm sure he knows about plenty of people. And he didn't recognize him personally, Cot and ST just talked about how him being nearby made them nervous. If anything, Dassem - who is an old friend and was "killed" by Laseen just like them - would hardly be one to make them nervous since they go so far back.
-the "always the three of them" thing actually makes very little sense for it being Dassem. The story as we've heard it elsewhere has always been that ST and Cot began taking Malaz Isle themselves (ie "just the two of them"). From Admiral Nok's account in HoC, Dassem Ultor was near to being the last of Kellanved's Family to join the group, so how could that be "always the three of them" if Surly, the Crusts, Nok, Hawl, etc joined Kel and Dancer before Dassem did?
-Show me a Dal Honese who isn't moody
-don't recall the Drift Avalii soldier bit, care to quote it?

[HoosierDaddy]

Perhaps, he is actually referring to one of the Andii or Foreigner.

[D'rek]

 H.D., on 19 July 2010 - 03:35 AM, said:

Perhaps, he is actually referring to one of the Andii or Foreigner.

Could just as easily be Mudslinger or Gentur, I just don't remember that bit at all.

[Johnny Phoenix]

Found the quote, its said by Braven Tooth, not Temper.

"And that's Mudslingers story, when he was sober, which he's not anymore. The one named Traveller, he's the one that interests me... something familiar about him, the way 'Slinger d'scribes 'im, the way he fought, killing everything fast, wi'out breaking a sweat..."

Page 1006, Bantam soft cover.

There's no way he's referring to anyone other than Dassem.

The whole "there was always three" quote I am really fuzzy on so I could definitely be wrong there. But there was something in Cotilions reaction that I think displayed some sort of familiarity. And Dassem and the Emperor (and Cotilion by extension) weren't exactly buddy-buddy. I'm reading NoK right now and from Tempers flashbacks and musings on Dassem it seems like the First Sword and the Emperor didn't always agree on matters. Now that they are all ascended who knows what kind of animosity might have brewed.

Spoiler

I also hear there are hints in Return of the Crimson Guard that Traveller is Dassem.

So we got the quote from Braven Tooth, the fact that Dassem is still alive, the fact that he and Traveller are both Dal Honese and the fact that both men are incredible swordmasters are enough hints for me to believe they are the same person.

This post has been edited by Hetan: 21 July 2010 - 05:23 AM

[Johnny Phoenix]

I remember another hint from NoK. It's a nice foreshadow:

Temper stood with his arms crossed, fixed his sight on a distant mountain range. 'So,' he said to Dassem, 'it has to be alone, does it?'
Dassem gave a tired nod, it was an old argument.
'What will you do?'
'Travel. Head west'

P 287 soft cover

Could be a coincidence, but I doubt it.

This post has been edited by Johnny_Phoenix: 19 July 2010 - 06:46 AM

[D'rek]

 Johnny_Phoenix, on 19 July 2010 - 06:36 AM, said:

I also hear there are hints in Return of the Crimson Guard [...].

THIS IS THE NIGHT OF KNIVES FORUM WHY ARE YOU SPOILERING FUTURE BOOKS IF YOU WANT TO BRING THAT UP GO POST ABOUT IT IN THE ROTCG FORUM OR AT LEAST USE SOME SPOILER TAGS. THIS ALREADY HAPPENED ONE POST ABOVE YOUR OTHER ONE. I'M NOT EVEN NAGGING ON THE BH SPOILERS AS THEY ARE KIND OF IFFY IN THE NOK FORUM BUT MY GOD THERE IS NO WAY ROTCG CAN NOT BE CONSIDERED SPOILERIFIC TO NOK.


D'rek, please and thank you...

[Johnny Phoenix]

What exactly did I spoil? That there might be a hint in another book? That is not a spoiler. No ones reading experience is going to be ruined by that remark so relax.

This post has been edited by Johnny_Phoenix: 20 July 2010 - 05:42 AM

[worry]

Well where would you hear about such "hints"? From people who've read the book and so would know its content definitively? There's no reason to mention even the hints and maybes of future books in the individual book forums, unless hidden by spoiler tags with proper labeling, if at all.

[Johnny Phoenix]

 worrywort, on 20 July 2010 - 05:55 AM, said:

Well where would you hear about such "hints"? From people who've read the book and so would know its content definitively? There's no reason to mention even the hints and maybes of future books in the individual book forums, unless hidden by spoiler tags with proper labeling, if at all.

A spoiler must reveal information on the plot for it to be a spoiler. My remark did not. The mere mention of a possible hint being a spoiler is ridiculous. I'm not editing it. Go flag it with a moderator and let him/her decide if it bothers you so much. Like I've already said: no one's reading experience is going to be compromised in any way by my comment.

This post has been edited by Johnny_Phoenix: 21 July 2010 - 01:40 AM

[Bottle Service]

I also remember, again not specifically, from when Cot was on Drift Avilli (sp?) he said something to the effect that he should leave before Traveler saw him. In NoK from Tempers flashback it also seems like DU wasn't very buddy buddy with Kel in the end, and may have blamed him for the deaths of his men. Temper said again and again "the malazan regulars will be here soon, just like always" but they never would. Its not much of a stretch to think that Surly put her Claw into Sergeant positions and told them to hold back, and it also wouldn't be hard to think that DU would think that came down from Kel.

[worry]

Okay, dude, dig in your heels all you like. But repeating an assertion ad nauseam doesn't make it fact. If you're discussing content from a future book that's not personal conjecture--regardless of whether you can personally confirm it from reading experience or whether it specifically reveals "information on the plot" (your definition is arbitrarily narrow to suit your argument)--then you are potentially dropping an unwanted info bomb on unsuspecting forum readers. Offering readers a choice and a warning simply isn't that difficult, and this forum deliberately makes an effort to error on the side of caution.

This post has been edited by worrywort: 21 July 2010 - 02:32 AM

[Johnny Phoenix]

 worrywort, on 21 July 2010 - 02:32 AM, said:

Okay, dude, dig in your heels all you like. But repeating an assertion ad nauseam doesn't make it fact. If you're discussing content from a future book that's not personal conjecture--regardless of whether you can personally confirm it from reading experience or whether it specifically reveals "information on the plot" (your definition is arbitrarily narrow to suit your argument)--then you are potentially dropping an unwanted info bomb on unsuspecting forum readers. Offering readers a choice and a warning simply isn't that difficult, and this forum deliberately makes an effort to error on the side of caution.

I have dropped no bomb. If you think so then a firecracker must look like a nuke to you. I repeat myself because there is nothing else left to say. "My" definition is agreed by most people, after all, why would something that reveals NOTHING be a spoiler? And I wouldn't be so stubborn on the matter if you and the D'rek didn't start bitching and moaning over something so trivial. We were having a good discussion about the possibility of Dassem being Traveller until you two showed up on your Spoiler Crusade.

This is the last thing I will say on the subject. Like I said, tell a mod if it bothers you so much. If they shut me up then the debate is settled and I will humbly accept my defeat.



Bottle Service, yeah I knew there was something in Cotilion's reaction that displayed a familiarity with Traveller, too bad neither of us can remember it specifically lol.

[Hetan]

This question is answered in future books. No need to get all bent out of shape over it.
Lord knows it was argued often enough at the time HoC was published and then again with Knight of Knives.

I've spoilered the RotCG reference as it is a later book than the ones currently under discussion.

[worry]

Johnny_P, I wanna apologize if you felt I was trying to be antagonistic or trying to gang up on you. I just happened to agree with D'rek (basically that any mention of content in a future book should be Spoiler tagged, even if it doesn't seem like a big deal). I wasn't trying to defeat you in an argument just for its own sake. I suppose we both happen to think we are right, and that's just how it is sometimes.

[HiddenOne]

This is great. Citizens Arrest - Quick someone call the Spoiler Police, this guy's gonna put up a fight! Bring SWAT!

Where's my popcorn?

[AlanH]

 Hetan, on 21 July 2010 - 05:29 AM, said:

I've spoilered the RotCG reference as it is a later book than the ones currently under discussion.

Oh come on, are you serious? He said that he "heard" that there might be "hints" in a later book. I don't think I've ever heard a less convincing sentence than that one.

Anyway, I've heard, that possibly there might be hints, maybe, at some later stage, in what might be a series of what appear to be books, that may or may not answer what appears to be the original question...