[fingolfin]

I am a little bit confused about gods and their connection with warrens.

As an example Tay was a priest of D'rek and so can presumably access D'rek's warren. As I understand it D'rek, or any other god for that matter (Poleil etc.) was presumably, but not necessarily, an ascendant who gained worshippers who they accepeted.

How does a god obtain a warren which their priesthood can use and how does it fit in with K'rul's shaping of the warrens?

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

fingolfin, on 07 July 2010 - 11:27 AM, said:

I am a little bit confused about gods and their connection with warrens.

As an example Tay was a priest of D'rek and so can presumably access D'rek's warren. As I understand it D'rek, or any other god for that matter (Poleil etc.) was presumably, but not necessarily, an ascendant who gained worshippers who they accepeted.

How does a god obtain a warren which their priesthood can use and how does it fit in with K'rul's shaping of the warrens?

Well priests are different than mages in their power source. While a mage will draw on a warren or hold and get their power directly, a priest or priestess will draw on the power of their god (the same is true for MS/SA/D).


Edit: typo

This post has been edited by WhiskeyJackDaniels: 07 July 2010 - 02:37 PM

[D'rek]

How does a god become a master of a warren? Well like everything else in Malaziworld, it varies and depends...

The most common way is that they don't. The god is just a really, really powerful mage and/or ascendant, super-powered even more by being worshipped, and so they have so much power that they can conquer/shape/claim/create a bit of their warren to do with as they please. They don't have some sort of mastery of the entire warren, unless they bother to dominate it completely. Hence why many gods use the same warren without one of them being the "master" of the warren. Example: D'rek and the Queen of Dreams are both gods associated with the D'riss warren (fun point: D'rek + T'riss = D'riss). Even if there's only the one god for a particular warren, they still probably don't control the entire warren intimately, though of course they might try to affect the whole thing by putting wards and demons all around it.

But, as WJD pointed out, there's nothing really god-specific about doing all that. Being a god sure helps due to the superpowers of being worshipped and all, but in theory an unworshipped super-mage could go ahead and dominate a piece of a warren for themself, too.

The other common way, for warrens that have them, is to plunk your butt on the throne of the warren. ST did it in the Shadowhouse (and possibly on the elder Throne of Shadow), and T&F did it on their Beast Hold. The benefits this grants he who plunks down their butt probably varies depending on the warren, but it's not like it magically forces all the mages or even priests associated with the warren/aspect to bow to you (hence Bidithal's Empty Throne cult despite ST being on it).

This post has been edited by D'rek: 07 July 2010 - 03:24 PM

[Abyss]

WhiskeyJackDaniels, on 07 July 2010 - 02:36 PM, said:

...Well priests are different than mages in their power source. While a mage will draw on a warren or hold and get their power directly, a priest or priestess will draw on the power of their god (the same is true for MS/SA/D).

Not quite, because some priests are also mages in their own right, so they can draw on their own warren, and/or their god's power. And just to complicate things, the god's power can draw on the same warren that the priest could draw on himself. Tayshrenn was a High Priest of D'rek, but he has a whole range of warrens that have nothing to do with the Worm. The various Nameless One priests and mages at the start of TB all had their own warrens, but many were 'priests'. Heboric had no warren but his tattoos gave him an element of power even after he was thrown out of the priesthood. An assassin in HoC claimed to worship Hood but wasn't a mage...

D, on 07 July 2010 - 03:22 PM, said:

The other common way, for warrens that have them, is to plunk your butt on the throne of the warren. ST did it in the Shadowhouse (and possibly on the elder Throne of Shadow), and T&F did it on their Beast Hold. The benefits this grants he who plunks down their butt probably varies depending on the warren, but it's not like it magically forces all the mages or even priests associated with the warren/aspect to bow to you (hence Bidithal's Empty Throne cult despite ST being on it).

..and there's a real question about just how much control a Throne or being the aspected god actually delivers. We see many, many mages, claw, and so on use Meanas and Rashan with no particular allegiance to ST.

Quote

...Hence why many gods use the same warren without one of them being the "master" of the warren. Example: D'rek and the Queen of Dreams are both gods associated with the D'riss warren (fun point: D'rek + T'riss = D'riss). Even if there's only the one god for a particular warren, they still probably don't control the entire warren intimately, though of course they might try to affect the whole thing by putting wards and demons all around it.

Yep. By example in GotM there's a reference to five different gods using Tennes. And one of them is Fener, just to complicate things.


- Abyss, ...could call any struggle for that warren a Tennes match...

[D'rek]

Abyss, on 07 July 2010 - 05:23 PM, said:

WhiskeyJackDaniels, on 07 July 2010 - 02:36 PM, said:

...Well priests are different than mages in their power source. While a mage will draw on a warren or hold and get their power directly, a priest or priestess will draw on the power of their god (the same is true for MS/SA/D).

Not quite, because some priests are also mages in their own right, so they can draw on their own warren, and/or their god's power. And just to complicate things, the god's power can draw on the same warren that the priest could draw on himself. Tayshrenn was a High Priest of D'rek, but he has a whole range of warrens that have nothing to do with the Worm. The various Nameless One priests and mages at the start of TB all had their own warrens, but many were 'priests'. Heboric had no warren but his tattoos gave him an element of power even after he was thrown out of the priesthood. An assassin in HoC claimed to worship Hood but wasn't a mage...

Obviously priests who are also mages can utilize whatever warrens/magic their being a mage grants them. But the god they worship can offer them power as well. Key word is *can*. Yeah, the assassin says he's a worshipper of Hood because he likes killing people, but Hood has to give a shit in order for the assassin to get anything out of it.

Abyss, on 07 July 2010 - 05:23 PM, said:

- Abyss, ...could call any struggle for that warren a Tennes match...

That's a good one.

[Aptorian]

I think that believing that any god is limited to one warren/aspect is a tricky question.

I think it borders on every warren having very wide ranges of what it can be used for. The question is if a God can use the power of his own warren/aspect to heal a person or does he need to tap into Denul? Can you mess with a mortals head without using Mockra? Can a god create a fire with out tapping into Telas or for that matter borrowing from Air, light or earth while creating said fire?

If you're a strong enough god, like say K'rul in his prime, I'm willing to bet you can do some crazy shit. But if you're a low level godling, you might save your power by lending from other sources, no? It might also be a case of not treading on any of the other gods toes. Say you want to create a massive hurricane to pummel that stupid city of buggers, so you send a magical permission slip to Mael and Osserc telling them that you're borrowing some power.

[NikitaDarkstar]

Aptorian, on 07 July 2010 - 06:37 PM, said:

I think that believing that any god is limited to one warren/aspect is a tricky question.

I think it borders on every warren having very wide ranges of what it can be used for. The question is if a God can use the power of his own warren/aspect to heal a person or does he need to tap into Denul? Can you mess with a mortals head without using Mockra? Can a god create a fire with out tapping into Telas or for that matter borrowing from Air, light or earth while creating said fire?

Spoilers cause I'm not sure if I need them or not.

Spoiler

Well I remember one specific part from The Bonehunters where Cotillion had to call for ST cause some people needed healing. ST had access to Denul before he ascended, obviously still does, Cotillion did not. And another part from the same book where he helps Kalam after he and Quick Ben had found some sky keeps, but he wanted to keep in their shadow, obviously it was easier for him that way. (And sorry, my books are well.. lost among my other books right now.. so can't give the specific quotes.)

But well in a godly perspective they're very new and most likely quite weak compared to K'rul and the other old timers, so just cause they can't (yet?) that might not mean others can't.

This post has been edited by NikitaDarkstar: 08 July 2010 - 11:02 PM

[Aptorian]

And yet you also see Cotillion creating food and drink out of nothing and lengthening a rope with magic. Which to me suggests that there are many things that can be done with out using a specific warren.

[Findarato]

Aptorian, on 09 July 2010 - 06:56 AM, said:

And yet you also see Cotillion creating food and drink out of nothing and lengthening a rope with magic. Which to me suggests that there are many things that can be done with out using a specific warren.

How do you know he doesn't use the shadow warren for doing this. I assumed so, because it all happens in that particular warren.

[Aptorian]

My point would be that Cotillion seems to be creating matter out of energy (The energy being magic). The food is not just an illusion, the rope is solid. If you're capable of doing that with Shadow as your power, then you should also be able to create heat, cold, light, darkness, air pressure, etc. Which, returning to my above post, would suggest that the Warrens are just aspects but with enough skill or power you can do anything with magic.

[Findarato]

yes, Stormy did not hesitate to eat most of it, and the rope worked as well.

I agree what you say that one skillful enough can do anything he wants wth the magic. But I still have the impression that the source of Cotillion's magic is shadow, and therefore it is for me logical to conclude he used the warren to work it. to my mind he could not have worked the same magic somewhere in a sand dune of Seven Cities without drawing some power from a warren.

Maybe the food and the rope magic seems to be coming just out of his sleeve, because it is not definitely described how he did it, but I am sure he used the warren.

[Meraxes]

Ok, I've just never understood something, and it may be a little too late to ask, but hey I'm relatively new to Wu, I've just read up to RG...but, what aspect is D'rek a god, or goddess, of? I just confuse him/her with poliel...are they the same? related ? completely opposite and I should just start it all over again?

[worry]

I think as a worm, D'rek is something closer to an elder-ish totem than Poliel. The disease god for animals (and people, of course) on par with Togg & Fanderay, as opposed to the more humanoid Poliel, who I'd associate more with plagues and poxes and viruses etc. That's just my rough differentiation between them. I have no particular knowledge that D'rek is as old as Togg & Fanderay, but the worm just symbolizes a more pre-modernity pre-human set of diseases to me, and Soliel and Poliel seem more humanoid to me. Though I suppose in the Venn Diagram between them, the center section would be plenty big.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

D'rek appears to be either male or female depending on how the subject is worshipping it. I think worrywort's description of it being an Elder-esque deity along the lines of T & F is probably pretty accurate even though it hasn't been stated that way to my knowledge in the books. D'rek isn't aspected to disease though I don't think. More decay.

From Tayschrenn in BH during his conversation with ST:
"The Worm of Autumn is the harbinger of death..."

Seems to simply be an aspect of decay and the inevitability of death.

[worry]

Ah, maybe. I was thinking of worm as in those you find in pets and livestock (and people too). But perhaps it's something closer to maggots.

[Dave1]

worrywort, on 21 July 2010 - 10:16 PM, said:

I think as a worm, D'rek is something closer to an elder-ish totem than Poliel. The disease god for animals (and people, of course) on par with Togg & Fanderay, as opposed to the more humanoid Poliel, who I'd associate more with plagues and poxes and viruses etc. That's just my rough differentiation between them. I have no particular knowledge that D'rek is as old as Togg & Fanderay, but the worm just symbolizes a more pre-modernity pre-human set of diseases to me, and Soliel and Poliel seem more humanoid to me. Though I suppose in the Venn Diagram between them, the center section would be plenty big.

Poliel is the a god of pestilence and disease were as D'rek is a god of autumn, a god of rot and decay similar but not the same. I think most Ascendant appearances are warped by their power somewhat. Would also explain why ST is all shadowy. Hence Poliel looks like a diseased harpy and D'rek looks like a worm/maggot. No where is it stated that one must be human or of the elder races to become a god, possible some spirit (mostly talked about in DG, Nill and Nether the warlocks use them) has reached some high level of power, some spirit that thrived on disease or decay became Poliel, D'rek respectively. I don't know where T&G and the beast hold fits in to the DoD outside the Houses I would imagine.

[D'iversify]

Monkeys!

[Sinisdar Toste]

thank you, now back to your regularly scheduled program

[Cuorion]

As I picture it myself, warrens are realms, some kind of "other dimensions", where base elements are different than the "earth" realm. A mage "using" a warred, kind of opens a gate through him to channel and shape said elements (e.g.: Bottle picturing a gate to open inside him, Beak sensing a candle to light). A God aspected to a warren is practically an ascended mage, strong enough to consider himself part of it (e.g.: Shadowthrone), or at some occasions even owning it (e.g.: Hood). An Elder God is an "elemental force", as mentioned by Edgewalker at some point, that pre-existed as a personification of the aspect itself (e.g.: Mael). A priest is someone that is granded this power either through prayer and acceptance (e.g.: Torahaval) or force of will upon the god himself(e.g.: Feather Witch), although the second may imply a certain level of inner power to be accomplished. Needless to say, someone could be both a mage and a priest (e.g.: Bidithal).

This post has been edited by Cuorion: 31 December 2012 - 02:37 PM