[Aptorian]

You're thinking of the Draconean family tree. Udinass playing Columbo in RG makes some strong hints that the brothers dark are not as dark as you'd think they are.

[worry]

MD and FL are apparently creator entities that don't rely on worship or anything, while Osserc is an EG on par with his contemporaries (keep in mind, he's not a true TL, unlike Rake who is the first TA). Osserc is said to have been floating around Light as the others we're familiar with did through Dark, I think in RotCG.

[D'rek]

Aptorian, on 24 June 2010 - 07:39 PM, said:

You're thinking of the Draconean family tree. Udinass playing Columbo in RG makes some strong hints that the brothers dark are not as dark as you'd think they are.

And though Udinaas wouldn't generally be credible enough on his own to necessarily be believed, Osserc also quite clearly says that "Mother Dark's first children were spawned without the need for any sire, and they were not Tiste Andii." which pretty highly implies the TA were sired with FL's help. Osserc himself is pretty goddamn old and apparently the first child of Dark and/or Light excluding the EGs, so I like to think he would know.

[foolio]

I was thinking the same thing D'rek. I think Udinaas is stumbling around and hits on truths more often than totally missing but still not infalable. And I am not so sure that Osserc is necesssarily totally honest. Maybe half of his statement is true.

[Blend]

Ciceronian, on 19 June 2010 - 11:21 PM, said:

I'm just going to come out and say it, there's way too much going on with the Deragoth considering a.) how powerful we were led to believe they are and b.) how little page time they've gotten. The Deragoth have been mentioned, at one point or another, as...

1. The Hounds of Darkness (which, aren't the Hounds supposed to be some of the oldest, most primordial forces around?)
2. A random race of canine that essentially had free reign over 7C continent before it was civilized, who "domesticated" the Eres.
3. The D'ivers form of Dessimbelackis.

Maybe I'm just missing information, or maybe not thinking clearly, but it just seems like there's no way all of this can be congruent.

Someone else may have said something to this effect previously, but anyway, I just wanted to throw in my $0.02.

In short, yes, it's all congruent.

1. When they said that the Deragoth were Houds of darkness, whoever said that (Onrack?) said he meant it in a 'metaphorical' way. Meaning, they do not serve Darkness (notice the capital) like the Houds of Shadow serve Shadow, but they still have something of that element within them.

2. In the dream sequence where L'Oric visits his Daddy dearest, he sees that the Deragoth rule Seven Cities and keep Eres'al as pets. This seems to be before the T'Lan occupation of 7C, and before the First Empire, and thus before the crazy ritual that made all the D'Ivers and Soletaken. This would have been back when there were enough Deragoth to rule an entire continent, and no one strong or smart enough to do anything about it.

3. Desimbellackis, if I am remembering my Malaz history correctly, was the Emperor of the First Empire. Something big happened to threaten his empire, the Beast Ritual took place, he made a deal with the 7 remaining Deragoth, who were the 7 Holies, which makes sense if humans are descendants of the Eres that were Deragoth pets - it makes sense to me for a human predecessor to worship his/her masters. We have seen often enough in this series how worship leads to power / ascendancy and so on...

So, my theory is that the Beast Ritual started going wrong (seriously wrong) and those humans / imass / whatever that became 'First Heroes' (i.e. D'Ivers and Soletaken) started going crazy. Desimbellackis is freaking out because he's watching his Empire get destroyed before his very eyes. He makes a deal with the Deragoth to become D'Ivers, using them as his form. However, because Deragoth are powerful, Desi loses out on the deal, and doesn't retain complete control over what he's doing. The Deragoth play along as long as they don't disagree with him, or something. Desi eventually loses control, the Deragoth are tyrannical, what's left of the First Empire do whatever they can to stop him, and end up sealing them in stone in the Nascent realm, which is a shard of Shadow. Everything in Shadow casts a Shadow, thus, the Hounds of Shadow come into existence. This of course ignores the existence of the Hounds of Light, but we never got enough information about them for me to fit them into my theory.

Anyway, I could be full of shite, but I think that's how everything went down.

I think one thing that's important to keep in mind is that there are the Deragoth and there are deragoth. (notice the big D on the first one?) The Deragoth are the seven that Desi made a deal with. Deragoth is the species of hounds or whatever.

[D'rek]

Blend, on 25 June 2010 - 01:59 PM, said:

Ciceronian, on 19 June 2010 - 11:21 PM, said:

I'm just going to come out and say it, there's way too much going on with the Deragoth considering a.) how powerful we were led to believe they are and b.) how little page time they've gotten. The Deragoth have been mentioned, at one point or another, as...

1. The Hounds of Darkness (which, aren't the Hounds supposed to be some of the oldest, most primordial forces around?)
2. A random race of canine that essentially had free reign over 7C continent before it was civilized, who "domesticated" the Eres.
3. The D'ivers form of Dessimbelackis.

Maybe I'm just missing information, or maybe not thinking clearly, but it just seems like there's no way all of this can be congruent.

Someone else may have said something to this effect previously, but anyway, I just wanted to throw in my $0.02.

In short, yes, it's all congruent.

1. When they said that the Deragoth were Houds of darkness, whoever said that (Onrack?) said he meant it in a 'metaphorical' way. Meaning, they do not serve Darkness (notice the capital) like the Houds of Shadow serve Shadow, but they still have something of that element within them.

2. In the dream sequence where L'Oric visits his Daddy dearest, he sees that the Deragoth rule Seven Cities and keep Eres'al as pets. This seems to be before the T'Lan occupation of 7C, and before the First Empire, and thus before the crazy ritual that made all the D'Ivers and Soletaken. This would have been back when there were enough Deragoth to rule an entire continent, and no one strong or smart enough to do anything about it.

3. Desimbellackis, if I am remembering my Malaz history correctly, was the Emperor of the First Empire. Something big happened to threaten his empire, the Beast Ritual took place, he made a deal with the 7 remaining Deragoth, who were the 7 Holies, which makes sense if humans are descendants of the Eres that were Deragoth pets - it makes sense to me for a human predecessor to worship his/her masters. We have seen often enough in this series how worship leads to power / ascendancy and so on...

So, my theory is that the Beast Ritual started going wrong (seriously wrong) and those humans / imass / whatever that became 'First Heroes' (i.e. D'Ivers and Soletaken) started going crazy. Desimbellackis is freaking out because he's watching his Empire get destroyed before his very eyes. He makes a deal with the Deragoth to become D'Ivers, using them as his form. However, because Deragoth are powerful, Desi loses out on the deal, and doesn't retain complete control over what he's doing. The Deragoth play along as long as they don't disagree with him, or something. Desi eventually loses control, the Deragoth are tyrannical, what's left of the First Empire do whatever they can to stop him, and end up sealing them in stone in the Nascent realm, which is a shard of Shadow. Everything in Shadow casts a Shadow, thus, the Hounds of Shadow come into existence. This of course ignores the existence of the Hounds of Light, but we never got enough information about them for me to fit them into my theory.

Anyway, I could be full of shite, but I think that's how everything went down.

I think one thing that's important to keep in mind is that there are the Deragoth and there are deragoth. (notice the big D on the first one?) The Deragoth are the seven that Desi made a deal with. Deragoth is the species of hounds or whatever.

That *could* work out. The main thing I see against it is that the ghost from HoC are rebelling against Dessimbelackis and his Deragoth. Can that still happen after the T'lan Imass slaughter everyone right after the beast ritual? I guess so, there could be lots of survivors that aren't slaughtered by T'lan Imass and didn't get forcefully shape-shifted and then made insane, and then rebelled againt Dessim. But it's equally possible the other way that Dessim made his Deragoth-pact, then later there was rebellion, then more later the beast ritual occured and the T'lan Imass slaughtered everyone.

The HFE spans so much time and has so many little fragments of history that it's really hard to conclusively piece anything together in a definitive sequence. But this brought up something else to me - is there any evidence that Dessim was involved or even still around at the time of the Beast Ritual?

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Well in DoD, Telorast and Curdle say that he used an old ritual to force his people to bond with a beast so that they stopped destroying nature. Or somesuch.
This would make it look like Dessimbelackis was the guy who started the Beast Ritual.

[Aptorian]

Ciceronian, on 19 June 2010 - 11:21 PM, said:

I'm just going to come out and say it, there's way too much going on with the Deragoth considering a.) how powerful we were led to believe they are and b.) how little page time they've gotten. The Deragoth have been mentioned, at one point or another, as...

1. The Hounds of Darkness (which, aren't the Hounds supposed to be some of the oldest, most primordial forces around?)
2. A random race of canine that essentially had free reign over 7C continent before it was civilized, who "domesticated" the Eres.
3. The D'ivers form of Dessimbelackis.

Maybe I'm just missing information, or maybe not thinking clearly, but it just seems like there's no way all of this can be congruent.

They may indeed be some kind of elemental aspect to them, they certainly seem to be supercharged when they are chugging around.

In DOD Mappo remarks that the Deragothoriginate from some kind of plains bear type creature. It is implied that they are constructs/hybrids created by some people or some one.

The 7 that we know now, seem to be the last seven deragoth that made a pact with Dessimbelackis. As far as we understand he merged with them... or something.

Blend, on 25 June 2010 - 01:59 PM, said:

Someone else may have said something to this effect previously, but anyway, I just wanted to throw in my $0.02.

In short, yes, it's all congruent.

1. When they said that the Deragoth were Houds of darkness, whoever said that (Onrack?) said he meant it in a 'metaphorical' way. Meaning, they do not serve Darkness (notice the capital) like the Houds of Shadow serve Shadow, but they still have something of that element within them.

2. In the dream sequence where L'Oric visits his Daddy dearest, he sees that the Deragoth rule Seven Cities and keep Eres'al as pets. This seems to be before the T'Lan occupation of 7C, and before the First Empire, and thus before the crazy ritual that made all the D'Ivers and Soletaken. This would have been back when there were enough Deragoth to rule an entire continent, and no one strong or smart enough to do anything about it.

It is Osserc who coins the phrase "Hounds of Darkness" in the dream sequence in HoC. The name Deragoth is a basterdization of a longer tittle he knows from the Andii language. L'oric corrects him in his pronunciation or something as far as I recall.

He says himself that they're not actually "Hounds of Darkness", it's just an approximation. It might even be from some relic of worship.

The Deragoth ruled 7C back in the Elder Times when the KCCM were still around. And the Deragoth ate Kell Hunters for breakfast. It is safe to say that the Deragoth were never easy to mess with.

Blend, on 25 June 2010 - 01:59 PM, said:

So, my theory is that the Beast Ritual started going wrong (seriously wrong) and those humans / imass / whatever that became 'First Heroes' (i.e. D'Ivers and Soletaken) started going crazy. Desimbellackis is freaking out because he's watching his Empire get destroyed before his very eyes. He makes a deal with the Deragoth to become D'Ivers, using them as his form. However, because Deragoth are powerful, Desi loses out on the deal, and doesn't retain complete control over what he's doing. The Deragoth play along as long as they don't disagree with him, or something. Desi eventually loses control, the Deragoth are tyrannical, what's left of the First Empire do whatever they can to stop him, and end up sealing them in stone in the Nascent realm, which is a shard of Shadow. Everything in Shadow casts a Shadow, thus, the Hounds of Shadow come into existence. This of course ignores the existence of the Hounds of Light, but we never got enough information about them for me to fit them into my theory.

The first heroes were around before the ritual of the beast. The First Heroes were ascendant warriors/protectors (rulers?) of the first empire.

Heborics explanation of the Beast ritual in DG was that the path of the Soletaken had become the new popular fad among the young of the empire, a popular alternative to ascending. I guess this can be fitted with the other explanation that Dessim was trying to teach his people a lesson.

I like your theory about why the Deragoth were in the Nascent.

This post has been edited by Aptorian: 25 June 2010 - 03:08 PM

[D'rek]

Aptorian, on 25 June 2010 - 03:07 PM, said:

Blend, on 25 June 2010 - 01:59 PM, said:

So, my theory is that the Beast Ritual started going wrong (seriously wrong) and those humans / imass / whatever that became 'First Heroes' (i.e. D'Ivers and Soletaken) started going crazy. Desimbellackis is freaking out because he's watching his Empire get destroyed before his very eyes. He makes a deal with the Deragoth to become D'Ivers, using them as his form. However, because Deragoth are powerful, Desi loses out on the deal, and doesn't retain complete control over what he's doing. The Deragoth play along as long as they don't disagree with him, or something. Desi eventually loses control, the Deragoth are tyrannical, what's left of the First Empire do whatever they can to stop him, and end up sealing them in stone in the Nascent realm, which is a shard of Shadow. Everything in Shadow casts a Shadow, thus, the Hounds of Shadow come into existence. This of course ignores the existence of the Hounds of Light, but we never got enough information about them for me to fit them into my theory.

The first heroes were around before the ritual of the beast. The First Heroes were ascendant warriors/protectors (rulers?) of the first empire.

Heborics explanation of the Beast ritual in DG was that the path of the Soletaken had become the new popular fad among the young of the empire, a popular alternative to ascending. I guess this can be fitted with the other explanation that Dessim was trying to teach his people a lesson.

I like your theory about why the Deragoth were in the Nascent.

Not to mention that according to Treach the Beast Ritual "shattered a warren". Many believe this may be linked to the sundering of Emurlahn so it makes sense for the HFE rebels when they banish the Deragoth to send them to a nascent Shadow warren if all these things truly are linked.

[Jurble]

So, another question: Andarist looks like an old man because of a lack of Eleint blood. He ages. Is Sandalath Soletaken then? Does she have Eleint blood? Or was some other reason given, I never read Midnight Tides.

[worry]

Well, go read Midnight Tides.

[Harvester]

Why didn't you read MT?

[Jurble]

I don't wanna ;-(. I tried years ago, but it had none of my favorite characters, so I just skipped it. Didn't really affect my reading of later books, I was able to infer who most people were, or ignore them.

[HoosierDaddy]

MT is one of the best books in the series. Please, read it for your own sake.

Sandalath was dead, but trapped in Letheras due to Gothos ritual she was still.... around. So, blah blah blah, Crippled God brings her back to life as a gift to Withal.

[Harvester]

Mh... you're missing a great book, but it's your decision.

[worry]

That's a little too open-minded. Cast some judgment!

[Harvester]

You want us to grab some torches, clubs and rakes?

[Blend]

D, on 25 June 2010 - 04:51 PM, said:

Aptorian, on 25 June 2010 - 03:07 PM, said:

Blend, on 25 June 2010 - 01:59 PM, said:

So, my theory is that the Beast Ritual started going wrong (seriously wrong) and those humans / imass / whatever that became 'First Heroes' (i.e. D'Ivers and Soletaken) started going crazy. Desimbellackis is freaking out because he's watching his Empire get destroyed before his very eyes. He makes a deal with the Deragoth to become D'Ivers, using them as his form. However, because Deragoth are powerful, Desi loses out on the deal, and doesn't retain complete control over what he's doing. The Deragoth play along as long as they don't disagree with him, or something. Desi eventually loses control, the Deragoth are tyrannical, what's left of the First Empire do whatever they can to stop him, and end up sealing them in stone in the Nascent realm, which is a shard of Shadow. Everything in Shadow casts a Shadow, thus, the Hounds of Shadow come into existence. This of course ignores the existence of the Hounds of Light, but we never got enough information about them for me to fit them into my theory.

The first heroes were around before the ritual of the beast. The First Heroes were ascendant warriors/protectors (rulers?) of the first empire.

Heborics explanation of the Beast ritual in DG was that the path of the Soletaken had become the new popular fad among the young of the empire, a popular alternative to ascending. I guess this can be fitted with the other explanation that Dessim was trying to teach his people a lesson.

I like your theory about why the Deragoth were in the Nascent.

Not to mention that according to Treach the Beast Ritual "shattered a warren". Many believe this may be linked to the sundering of Emurlahn so it makes sense for the HFE rebels when they banish the Deragoth to send them to a nascent Shadow warren if all these things truly are linked.

Shattered warren references are always referring to Emurhlan - as far as we know, that's the only warren that's ever been shattered. I'm thinking that it doesn't matter whether the warren was shattered before, during, or after Deragoth-Desi's imprisonment, that shard of Emurhlan was in 7C, but presumably before it was shattered, you could get into Emurhlan from anywhere if you knew how, yeah? And the shard that had the Dera-Desi in it could have floated to 7Cities in some ethereally crazy way...

I can't remember whether it's definitley Iccy who shattered Emurhlan, or if it was a bunch of crazy dragons? I know Iccy destroyed an Azath, but is he the one who shattered Emurhlan?

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Blend, on 28 June 2010 - 06:02 PM, said:

Shattered warren references are always referring to Emurhlan - as far as we know, that's the only warren that's ever been shattered. I'm thinking that it doesn't matter whether the warren was shattered before, during, or after Deragoth-Desi's imprisonment, that shard of Emurhlan was in 7C, but presumably before it was shattered, you could get into Emurhlan from anywhere if you knew how, yeah? And the shard that had the Dera-Desi in it could have floated to 7Cities in some ethereally crazy way...

I can't remember whether it's definitley Iccy who shattered Emurhlan, or if it was a bunch of crazy dragons? I know Iccy destroyed an Azath, but is he the one who shattered Emurhlan?

Emurhlan was sundered after Scabandari betrayed Silchas Ruin and was then destroyed and imprisoned by Mael, Killy, and Gothos. Apparently the warren shattered under the weight of all the betrayals. In its weakened state a bunch of powers vied to gain the throne and claim the warrens power for themselves. Kilmandaros and Rake teamed up together to make sure nobody gained the throne, and decided to let the warren die on its own. Killy didn't like the precedent being set, and Rake had nothing better to do that afternoon.

I don't know if its ever outright stated that the warren the Beast Ritual tore apart was a fragment of Emurlahn. I know it is the only one we know was shattered, but I think this world is sufficiently vast enough and we have enough information on the varieties of warrens that they could have easily created one for the ritual and then tore it apart or a number of other explanations.

[foolio]

Quote

Emurhlan was sundered after Scabandari betrayed Silchas Ruin and was then destroyed and imprisoned by Mael, Killy, and Gothos. Apparently the warren shattered under the weight of all the betrayals.

I didnt think Betrayals shatted CE, I dont think we know what did, just that Scabandari was somehow responsible for it.