[Tyrant]

Regarding the Shake storyline - to be crude for a moment, I think Erikson pulled much of their backstory out of his arse, perhaps he decided he didn't have enough storyarcs as it was so dreamed up the Shake one day? The more we read about them, the more their very existence seems to be incongruent with much of the already established backstory. The Edur Betrayal saw a vast Edur army hundreds of thousands strong fighting the KCCM - and we are lead to believe that these are the 'bastard get' of a small number of Andii guarding the First Shore? How much time passed between the destruction of Kharkanas and the Edur Betrayal? Enough to spawn an entire civilisation? Given what (albeit limited) interactions we as readers have had with the Tiste Liosian thus far, I find it difficult to believe that this haughty, arrogant race of warrior priests would breed with the Tiste Andii in sufficient numbers to spawn the Edur - we know from Enias' band that they view the Andii and the Edur as a lesser species. Where does Scabandari, the supposed 'Father Shadow', enter into all of this? I am pretty positive (though I couldn't quote the source) that we have been told in the past that the Edur do NOT share genetic descent with the Andii or the Liosian, when in fact as of DoD, they apparently most certainly do!

This post has been edited by Tyrant: 20 June 2010 - 10:19 PM

[Harvester]

Wait, what? The Edur aren't the offspring of Tiste Andii and Liosan affairs, they rose from the ashes left by Mother Dark's and Father Light's love making, or not?

[worry]

Maybe the Shake are the offspring of Light and Dark directly and the Edur are the offspring of TA and TL. Or the other way around. Or neither. I dunno. I do think we'll get some kind of an answer on this one though.

[D'rek]

Tyrant, on 20 June 2010 - 10:14 PM, said:

Regarding the Shake storyline - to be crude for a moment, I think Erikson pulled much of their backstory out of his arse, perhaps he decided he didn't have enough storyarcs as it was so dreamed up the Shake one day? The more we read about them, the more their very existence seems to be incongruent with much of the already established backstory. The Edur Betrayal saw a vast Edur army hundreds of thousands strong fighting the KCCM - and we are lead to believe that these are the 'bastard get' of a small number of Andii guarding the First Shore? How much time passed between the destruction of Kharkanas and the Edur Betrayal? Enough to spawn an entire civilisation? Given what (albeit limited) interactions we as readers have had with the Tiste Liosian thus far, I find it difficult to believe that this haughty, arrogant race of warrior priests would breed with the Tiste Andii in sufficient numbers to spawn the Edur - we know from Enias' band that they view the Andii and the Edur as a lesser species. Where does Scabandari, the supposed 'Father Shadow', enter into all of this? I am pretty positive (though I couldn't quote the source) that we have been told in the past that the Edur do NOT share genetic descent with the Andii or the Liosian, when in fact as of DoD, they apparently most certainly do!

If our own human population can grow from a few dozen million to 7 billion in about 2 millenia, I'm sure the Edur race can grow from 0 to a few hundred thousand in the hundreds of millenia of Tiste history.

[Jurble]

'nother question, completely unrelated.

Andarist looked like a really really old guy right? What was the reason given for that? He didn't have any Eleint blood? I don't recall. Where did Rake and Silchas get their Eleint blood from?

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Jurble, on 21 June 2010 - 07:09 PM, said:

'nother question, completely unrelated.

Andarist looked like a really really old guy right? What was the reason given for that? He didn't have any Eleint blood? I don't recall. Where did Rake and Silchas get their Eleint blood from?

No, Andarist didn't have any Eleint blood. And Rake and Silchas got their's from killing Tiam and drinking her blood. I don't know if it was directly stated that these were separate events or if Silchas piggybacked Rake's kill.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

From the MD-Rake convo in TtH it seemed that Rake killed Tiam and then lots of people followed him to drink his blood and among them there was Silchas.
MD says something like:" Don't you understand where he's running?"

[Tyrant]

D, on 21 June 2010 - 12:40 PM, said:

Tyrant, on 20 June 2010 - 10:14 PM, said:

Regarding the Shake storyline - to be crude for a moment, I think Erikson pulled much of their backstory out of his arse, perhaps he decided he didn't have enough storyarcs as it was so dreamed up the Shake one day? The more we read about them, the more their very existence seems to be incongruent with much of the already established backstory. The Edur Betrayal saw a vast Edur army hundreds of thousands strong fighting the KCCM - and we are lead to believe that these are the 'bastard get' of a small number of Andii guarding the First Shore? How much time passed between the destruction of Kharkanas and the Edur Betrayal? Enough to spawn an entire civilisation? Given what (albeit limited) interactions we as readers have had with the Tiste Liosian thus far, I find it difficult to believe that this haughty, arrogant race of warrior priests would breed with the Tiste Andii in sufficient numbers to spawn the Edur - we know from Enias' band that they view the Andii and the Edur as a lesser species. Where does Scabandari, the supposed 'Father Shadow', enter into all of this? I am pretty positive (though I couldn't quote the source) that we have been told in the past that the Edur do NOT share genetic descent with the Andii or the Liosian, when in fact as of DoD, they apparently most certainly do!

If our own human population can grow from a few dozen million to 7 billion in about 2 millenia, I'm sure the Edur race can grow from 0 to a few hundred thousand in the hundreds of millenia of Tiste history.

Actually according to the United Nations the population of the world in the year 1AD is estimated at having been a swarthy 300 million but I take your point and, yes, they most certainly could grow to a population of that size and well beyond in hundreds of millenia, but all the evidence points to a pretty narrow timeframe in Tiste history.

Which is why I asked 'How much time passed between the destruction of Kharkanas and the Edur Betrayal?' because in order for the notion that the Tiste Edur are Andii/Liosian half-breeds to work it would need to be significant enough to allow successive generations to mature and breed. But as I understand it the Edur Betrayal occured during the Tiste invasion of Wu when they were met on arrival by the armies of the Kchain Che'Malle, so one can assume it was shortly after the destruction of Kharkanas and the turning away of Mother Dark, after all, they were looking for a new home...

So once again, the assertion that the Edur are Andi/Liosian spawn doesn't seem to add up and, given what's been established in past books before anyone had ever heard of the damned Shake, smacks of literary revisionism on Erikson's part.

This post has been edited by Tyrant: 22 June 2010 - 07:36 PM

[worry]

What has been established as fact in past books regarding the origin of the Tiste Edur?

[Harvester]

Tyrant, on 22 June 2010 - 07:35 PM, said:

So once again, the assertion that the Edur are Andi/Liosian spawn doesn't seem to add up and, given what's been established in past books before anyone had ever heard of the damned Shake, smacks of literary revisionism on Erikson's part.

They ARE NOT Liosan+Andii spawn. The Tiste people were given birth by.. well their respective aspect. When shadow came into being, the Edur were born.

//edit:

It's hard to find useful quotes and I am not willing to search through TTH right now.

Quote

Mother Dark begat three children,

the First, Tiste Andii, were her dearest,

dwellers of the land before Light.

Then were birthed in pain the Second, Tiste Lians,

the burning glory of Light itself,

and so the First denied their Mother,

in their fury, and so were cast out,

doomed children of Mother Dark.

She then gave rise, in her mercy, to the Third,

spawn of the war between Dark and Light,

the Tiste Edur, and there was shadow

upon their souls.

Kilmanar’s Fables

Sebun Imanan

(MoI, UK Trade, p.301)

This post has been edited by Harvester: 22 June 2010 - 08:25 PM

[Aptorian]

You do realise that most of what we've ever heard about the Tiste and their wars are legends and political and religious propaganda, right? That is a quote from MoI, from an author we know nothing about. It is completely unreliable.

[Harvester]

I already said that I haven't any useful quotes at hand, but Andii + Liosan =/= Edur... because that would make absolutely no sense since it would fuck up the entire origin of the Malazan universe.

---

Say, where did the Tiste Liosan and Andii come from? You'd normally view them as some kind of an avatar race or simply children of their aspect. We kind of have to assume they were spawned from Light and Darkness.
What about the Edur? If they're just the offspring of Andii and Liosan love affairs (which seem unlikely to me), they are either no real Tiste people or their spawning resulted in the birth of Shadow, saying that they predated their own aspect... *head scratch*

---

Oh, and by the way - unreliable? Just as much as the one about Grub being FS, I'd say and this is taken for granted.

This post has been edited by Harvester: 22 June 2010 - 09:55 PM

[Tyrant]

Harvester, that is pretty much the understanding I had until the Shake passages in Dust of Dreams, specifically when Twilight and the Watch have reached the First Shore. I suggest you re-read that chapter as that is where this confusion has arisen from. But in short, as of Dust of Dreams, the Shake were originally the Tiste Andii guardians of the First Shore (the border between Light and Dark) who bred with Tiste Liosian interlopers and thus spawned the Tiste Edur. They were subsequently abandoned during the Fall of Kharkanas and 'rescued' by Silchas Ruin, who charged Gallan with creating a pathway of escape for them, a pathway which eventually lead to the Lether continent, where they settled and interbred with the local human population. Over the millenia this led to a dilution of the Andii blood and the Shake descendants having an overall more human appearance but still able to lay claim to the Andii bloodline (which is why Twilight's blood could open the Road to Gallan)

I'm sure you can appreciate the inconsistencies that this apparent truth now raises with various aspects of the pre-established plot.

This post has been edited by Tyrant: 22 June 2010 - 10:02 PM

[Harvester]

Mh, I'll do that then... wait, you're right. I am sorry, no, I am pissed. Now I need to repress some more memories... Twilight gave birth to shadow... Twilight gave birth... Twilight gave... Twilight... Yedan Derryg is a drunkard.

Huh, so the Edur are no real Tiste people after all. What does that make the Shake? Tiste Yan/Tovis?

This post has been edited by Harvester: 22 June 2010 - 10:20 PM

[D'rek]

Osserc and Tool have certainly cast enough doubts upon the legends on the Andii being the first-born of MD and the Liosan being the pure children of FL that I'm certainly willing to believe that the Edur are just some bastard hybrid of the two. It's not like there's a Father Shadow... well okay there is and it's just some random Edur not even of the royal blood who killed his way to the top and called himself that, which is even worse becuase it eliminates the idea of a hidden, real Father Shadow that the Edur worshipped prior without us knowing.

Anyways, there could be hundreds of thousands of years between the beginning of the Tiste Edur as Shake babies and the point at which Scabby murdered the royal line and lead them in an invasion of Wu. But that, of course, brings up a new big question - who the heck are the royal line of the Edur if the Shake have their own seperate royal line?

I'm sure Tulas Shorn will explain it all in TCG.

[Ulrik]

Problem is, that mere fuc...ehm, making love with other race doesnt grant you acces to their aspected warren/ hold. Clip can say, that little bastard of many races. It doesnt grant Edur acces to Emurlahn...or some magic trick "POOP, Im Silchas, now you know KE, you like it?".

I think that Edur, like other Tiste races posess connections to more mythical and symbolical origin. Nobody questions Andii born from MD and aspcted Shadow and makes an image of nice Andiian pitecanthropus (Eres´al). So, yeah, if some being is called Mother Dark and really exists (and gave birth to whole race, ouch), I can believe that Edur has same origin.

For Shake, hypothetical timeline doesnt suit. Thay were making love with arrogant and as we saw elitist Liosan...Edur was born...and then all left with Silchas and who remained? Original Andii? (who in future will make love to humans and degenerate) Sorry, thats not how this thing works. Interacial connections works more "undecidedly" than white Liosan plus black Andii means grey Edur. And Erikson show it on Shake and their slow lose of power. 

Yeah, I might be wrong, but from what we know, abandoning proposed origin of TE and making some wild statements about sexually depravited Liosan and Andii is IMO...early.

[Jurble]

Well I just read RotCG, and there's that scene where Anomander and Osserc are at the growing Edur Warren, and after they leave some dude spawns right there. I took that as being an Edur forming. Or that something else?

[foolio]

really stupid question here: are OSric, Osserc, and father light the same person?

[Aptorian]

As far as we know, Father Light and Liossercal/Osserc/Osric/Osseric are not the same. It is believed that Osserc may be "Brother Light" referred to in the Edur mythology though.

It wouldn't really fit with the relationship between Osserc and Rake, if Osserc was Rakes father.

This post has been edited by Aptorian: 24 June 2010 - 07:10 PM

[foolio]

Aptorian, on 24 June 2010 - 07:08 PM, said:

As far as we know, Father Light and Liossercal/Osserc/Osric/Osseric are not the same. It is believed that Osserc may be "Brother Light" referred to in the Edur mythology though.

It wouldn't really fit with the relationship between Osserc and Rake, if Osserc was Rakes father.

I agree, but I didnt think Rake, Silchas , or Andarist had a father.