[Jurble]

Alright, so, wtf happened to Quick Ben? He just sort of exploded. Moreover, what was the secret he was hiding the entire time? I mean, we know he (Ben Adaephon Delat) was a normal person at some point, he has that older sister in like DHG. So, it's got to be related to one of the souls he's got inside of him, I guess. Or something.


And who was that Ruthan Gudd guy?


And Olar Ethil told Torrent that Humans wiped out the Imass that weren't a part of the Ritual. But I'd always thought Humans were descended from non-T'lan Imass Imass (I remember mention of them being descendants of Kilava, which I took as metaphorical - her not being part of the ritual and all). What are the origins of Humans now?

And so the Deragoth = Dessimbelackis is true, as I'd guessed. But, then, how come he never veered back into his human form back in the earlier books with the Deragoth? Surely that would've come in handy several times.

And what is the relation of the Shake and the Tiste Edur exactly? The Tiste Edur came from the Shake - they're referred to as the Shakes' own bastard get? How did that sort of differentiation happen?

[worry]

I'm glad somebody finally had the courage to ask these questions.

[Defiance]

I only have an answer to one of those questions, and it's not confirmed. I'm guessing why Dessimbelackis never veered back into his human form is because he's lost himself, much like Treach did in the 500 or so years before he died (I believe it was that long). He's lost his humanity and become more animal than man. That's what I think, at least.

[D'rek]

Jurble, on 19 June 2010 - 06:31 AM, said:

Alright, so, wtf happened to Quick Ben? He just sort of exploded. Moreover, what was the secret he was hiding the entire time? I mean, we know he (Ben Adaephon Delat) was a normal person at some point, he has that older sister in like DHG. So, it's got to be related to one of the souls he's got inside of him, I guess. Or something.

We don't know.

Jurble, on 19 June 2010 - 06:31 AM, said:

And who was that Ruthan Gudd guy?

We don't know.

Jurble, on 19 June 2010 - 06:31 AM, said:

And Olar Ethil told Torrent that Humans wiped out the Imass that weren't a part of the Ritual. But I'd always thought Humans were descended from non-T'lan Imass Imass (I remember mention of them being descendants of Kilava, which I took as metaphorical - her not being part of the ritual and all). What are the origins of Humans now?

Maybe they are and maybe they aren't. From the info in DoD it seems more that humans are descended from the Eres, but they are the metaphorical descendants of the Imass in that they pushed out the Imass civilization with their own.

Jurble, on 19 June 2010 - 06:31 AM, said:

And so the Deragoth = Dessimbelackis is true, as I'd guessed. But, then, how come he never veered back into his human form back in the earlier books with the Deragoth? Surely that would've come in handy several times.

We don't know, but it seems likely that, as Defiance said, he went crazy.

Jurble, on 19 June 2010 - 06:31 AM, said:

And what is the relation of the Shake and the Tiste Edur exactly? The Tiste Edur came from the Shake - they're referred to as the Shakes' own bastard get? How did that sort of differentiation happen?

The original Shake were Tiste Andii who defended the shore of Light, where Kurald Galain borders Kurald Thyrllan/Liosan. Over time they intermingled with some Liosan and the combination of the two races eventually lead to the Edur. The Andii weren't fans of this and cast out the Shake, but then there was a lot of civil war and stuff happened and the Shake ended up with Silchas and some survived the Edur betrayal and settled on the Lether coast where they interbred a whole lot more with humans, Jhorligg (the aquatic KCCM) and maybe the local Edur, eventually leading to the modern Shake. The royal line of the Shake still carries some purity from the Andii and hence Twilight's and the Watch's efficacy in Kurald Galain.

[Harvester]

Isn't it possible that the Imass were wiped out by their descendants? I mean... is there any reason not to assume that?

I think Dessimbelackis shared Treach's, Ryll's and all the other Soletaken's and D'ivers' fate. Have we ever seen them in their human forms? Wasn't Treach more beast than human in MOI (regarding his state of mind)? I guess it has something to do with the madness caused by the Beast Ritual.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Well, all Soletaken and D'ivers are quite mad but there are levels.
Threach lost his umanity, Ryllandaras seems quite clever but we still need to see him in his human form, Gryllen attacks people on random, according to Mappo and Icarium even Messremb who looked rather normal isn't completely sane, Mogora is a cackling deranged witch, the necromancers go butchering people for the cause of science, etc.

So yeah, I agrre with the idea that Dessimbelackis lost himself in the Deragoth form.

This post has been edited by Bauchelain the Evil: 19 June 2010 - 05:09 PM

[Aptorian]

Jurble, on 19 June 2010 - 06:31 AM, said:

Alright, so, wtf happened to Quick Ben? He just sort of exploded. Moreover, what was the secret he was hiding the entire time? I mean, we know he (Ben Adaephon Delat) was a normal person at some point, he has that older sister in like DHG. So, it's got to be related to one of the souls he's got inside of him, I guess. Or something.

Quick can't be dead. He's too slippery to go out like that. Even if his body got fucked up I'm sure his soul survived or he veered into a groundhog or something similarly crazy.

The thing I was most curious about in that book was the acorns he was using, he seemed to be communicating with them like they were sentient. I'm guessing that he either has his own summoned creatures stored in the acorns or maybe the 12 souls he has are located the acorns and they are capable of acting on their own.

Jurble, on 19 June 2010 - 06:31 AM, said:

And who was that Ruthan Gudd guy?

Like D'rek said we don't know who or what he is or was.

What we do know is that he knew Draconus once, unless he played Jen'isand Rul and took a stroll through Dragnipur one day, this means he must have met Draconus before he was killed by Rake. Which means that Gudd could be as old as the first empire or older.

We also know that he's had some kind of contact with the Stormriders.

And that he knows Greymane. Greymane is probably where the connection with the Stormriders comes from since there seems to be some kind of understand between the riders and old Stonewielder.

My theory is that Gudd may have been some kind of First Hero, one of the Ascendant warriors of the First Empire days.

Jurble, on 19 June 2010 - 06:31 AM, said:

And Olar Ethil told Torrent that Humans wiped out the Imass that weren't a part of the Ritual. But I'd always thought Humans were descended from non-T'lan Imass Imass (I remember mention of them being descendants of Kilava, which I took as metaphorical - her not being part of the ritual and all). What are the origins of Humans now?

Erikson has of course based the Eres'al, Imass, Humans and several other species origin on our own speculations about human heritage. The Eres'al are Home Erectus'ish, the Imass are tiny Neanderthals, the question is what is the missing links? Is there anything that connects the dots? Most likely there has been lots of diffent hybrid races and civilizations that have existed between current time human civilization and the times when the Eres'al ran with the Deragoth. One example of such off-shots would be the strange Eres'al descendants that the Grall wiped out.

Jurble, on 19 June 2010 - 06:31 AM, said:

And so the Deragoth = Dessimbelackis is true, as I'd guessed. But, then, how come he never veered back into his human form back in the earlier books with the Deragoth? Surely that would've come in handy several times.

Like mentioned above he probably lost himself. Or maybe he went some where else.

What is important to remember though is that the Deragoth are not just a construct of Dessimbelackis. They are as old as the Elder Races and once existed in such numbers that it appears that they ruled all of the 7Cs continent.

Jurble, on 19 June 2010 - 06:31 AM, said:

And what is the relation of the Shake and the Tiste Edur exactly? The Tiste Edur came from the Shake - they're referred to as the Shakes' own bastard get? How did that sort of differentiation happen?

The different Light/Dark interrelationships are even more complicated than the Human ancestry question. Better to just not think too hard on it. Everything is half truths and myths.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

I disagree with all the theories that Dessimbelackis lost himself in his d'ivers form. You hafta remember that the Deragoth existed before him. He found a way to put his soul/essence/being/power into the remaining seven to survive something I believe. I think it's more likely that this was a one time event. He veered and then was stuck with the transformation.

...of course he could be crazy as well, I just don't think thats the reason we haven't seen any sembling.

[Aptorian]

Well there is the theory that the Hounds of Shadow are actually Dessimbelackis. He became the shadow that the Seven Deragoth cast... but there's a lot of things that speak against that theory.

[Mischiefs' Folly]

Nice thread

[D'rek]

Other thing re Dessimbelackis - When Kalam sees ghosts in Raraku in HoC, they are talking about having defeated/banished the holy guardians, which we know were the 7 Deragoth, which Desseimbelackis used to store his soul and also set them up as holy guardians - one for each of the 7 holy cities. I don't think they say it outright, but as far as I recall it seemed that they spoke as if Dessimbelackis was still in charge at the time, so either he ruled from his 7-Deragoth form or placed his soul in them without losing his humanoid body...

[Ceda Cicero]

All of those are good questions, most of which I've not seen definitive answers to, but I'll answer with brief theories of my own, even though this isn't a theoryland thread...

Jurble, on 19 June 2010 - 06:31 AM, said:

Alright, so, wtf happened to Quick Ben? He just sort of exploded. Moreover, what was the secret he was hiding the entire time? I mean, we know he (Ben Adaephon Delat) was a normal person at some point, he has that older sister in like DHG. So, it's got to be related to one of the souls he's got inside of him, I guess. Or something.

I can't understand anyone who seriously contends that Quick is dead. The lightning came out of no where (not from a node) - possibly from a Sky Keep, but since they weren't through the gate at that point, probably not. Also possibly from KCNR sorcery of some sort, but I think there's a more mysterious explanation. As to who he is/what he's hiding, there are tons of theories - I came across one recently that suggested he houses, in some capacity, a portion of Andarist's power (since there have been continued references to Andarist surrendering his power of his own volition.) This would explain the Magus of House Dark connection to a degree, and also Quick's intimate knowledge of Draconus, and those musings of his on there "once being a throne."

Jurble, on 19 June 2010 - 06:31 AM, said:

And who was that Ruthan Gudd guy?

No idea. What we DO know of him: 1.) Knows Greymane 2.) Was in an Azath for a while, so must be a power player 3.) Is old enough that he chatted with Draconus once about the Kallorian Empire. 4.) Has a beard.

Jurble, on 19 June 2010 - 06:31 AM, said:

And Olar Ethil told Torrent that Humans wiped out the Imass that weren't a part of the Ritual. But I'd always thought Humans were descended from non-T'lan Imass Imass (I remember mention of them being descendants of Kilava, which I took as metaphorical - her not being part of the ritual and all). What are the origins of Humans now?

Many posts I've seen tend to hold the opinion that Olar Ethil, in many of her grand pronouncements, was talking mostly shite. I'm inclined to agree. I think it's safe to say she was speaking in generalizations... Probably humans descended from Imass (and maybe something else?) and then, in some places, wiped out entire Imass populations, or just gradually assimilated them into non-existence (think Letherii financial warfare.)

Jurble, on 19 June 2010 - 06:31 AM, said:

And so the Deragoth = Dessimbelackis is true, as I'd guessed. But, then, how come he never veered back into his human form back in the earlier books with the Deragoth? Surely that would've come in handy several times.

I'm just going to come out and say it, there's way too much going on with the Deragoth considering a.) how powerful we were led to believe they are and b.) how little page time they've gotten. The Deragoth have been mentioned, at one point or another, as...

1. The Hounds of Darkness (which, aren't the Hounds supposed to be some of the oldest, most primordial forces around?)
2. A random race of canine that essentially had free reign over 7C continent before it was civilized, who "domesticated" the Eres.
3. The D'ivers form of Dessimbelackis.

Maybe I'm just missing information, or maybe not thinking clearly, but it just seems like there's no way all of this can be congruent.

Jurble, on 19 June 2010 - 06:31 AM, said:

And what is the relation of the Shake and the Tiste Edur exactly? The Tiste Edur came from the Shake - they're referred to as the Shakes' own bastard get? How did that sort of differentiation happen?

Really good question... No basis for this, but maybe the Shake were children of Shadow before the sundering of KE, whereas the Edur distinction began around/during/throughout the sundering? Don't know if that works with the timeline, but...

[Harvester]

Nonono, Quick's not dead - we would've seen some flying body parts and such if he really had died.

... about Ruthan Gudd - I bet he's Grizzin Farl.

[Aptorian]

HE. IS. NOT. AN. ELDER GOD!

[Harvester]

Dammit!

[Illuyankas]

Aptorian, on 20 June 2010 - 07:46 AM, said:

HE. IS. NOT. AN. ELDER GOD!

PROVE. IT!

[worry]

He's an elf. Can't you tell by the name?

[Aptorian]

Illuyankas, on 20 June 2010 - 10:51 AM, said:

Aptorian, on 20 June 2010 - 07:46 AM, said:

HE. IS. NOT. AN. ELDER GOD!

PROVE. IT!

HOOD. IS. LOOKING. FOR. A. WIFE!

[Bauchelain the Evil]

That was a low blow.

[Aptorian]

I was aiming for Illys weak spot.