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Ok in an attempt to understand Jesus in a rational context I have been thinking about the following theory.
Jesus is an analogue for your per-pubescent, innocent self, before the first time you knowingly choose to go against the will of authority. Before this time you are the ideal citizen, attempting to do all that is expected of you wherever possible.
Sin is the act of knowingly doing wrong.
Where wrong is something against God.
Where God is the social authority.
And at the moment of your first willful disobedience, your first sin, your innocence, or your innocent self, Jesus, is crucified on the cross. Literally "dying for your sins".
But if you love Jesus, this innocence, if you recognise the error of social disobedience (sin) and strive throughout your life to be the model citizen, as Jesus once was, then you will find happiness in the life (present) and the next (future) despite your sins (past).
Is Jesus literally a social mechanism for instilling guilt for anti-social behaviour?
And is this worth worshiping, for the real happiness it can bring for living a righteous life?
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Jesus as Guilt Working theory
#2
Sindriss 
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Posted 18 June 2010 - 06:09 AM
What is real happiness? It reminds of the example that the lady gives in TTH, where she could heal that mentally challenged person, but she figures that in terms of happiness, it is better to be ignorant and childlike.
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I would like to know if Steve have ever tasted anything like the quorl white milk, that knocked the bb's out.
A: Nope, but I gots me a good imagination.
A: Nope, but I gots me a good imagination.
#3
Dolmen 2.0
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Posted 18 June 2010 - 06:30 PM
The trouble with jesus is the fact we are introduced to him in three levels.
He is a person, THE person according to christian literature and here is the
problem, christians interpret his life as perfect but others interpret him
as close-minded, free-minded, impossible or irrelevant. This I take from the
bible itself. the teachers of the law saw him as a thorn in their side, a rebel
and a challenger to their views of order and peaceful thought. how can this then
be seen as the perfect model by those that do not favour his teachings?
Later we are introduced to jesus the higher person. An entity that bridges our
partitioned reality to Gods "ultimate" reality. we see now a common denominator.
perfection cannot be generally achieved. perfection is reflective on choice and
Goal. If one accepts God and the teachings of jesus as the perfect path then one
can only pursue this path through jesus' example.
I think to see him as guilt is quite a clever spin on the literature but you fall in danger of missing the important part: Jesus and his life is an analogy for the pursuit of perfect love. Sin is not really the issue here. Jesus delivers his final lesson in destroying sin by achieving unconditional love. perfect love for humanity, Godly love or Agape which allows one to die to self and live for God (who I personally equate to life and creation, knowledge and truth)
I agree on this point, Knowledge as you have presented it is infact the birth of sin. By knowing what is right and turning from it you commit a denial. the knowledge is intimated by self, thus the denial is a denial of self. The turn from the knowledge of good is the textbook definition of sin. By extension one is judged by God for ones knowing refusal of the truth God has made available to you.
Is Jesus literally a social mechanism for instilling guilt for anti-social behaviour?
No, jesus is an example of how to follow a path to a love greater than self, love that preserves the individuals worth and the worth of one in the greater body of existence
And is this worth worshiping, for the real happiness it can bring for living a righteous life?
Love is universally accepted as happiness, pursuing it is natural and in truth vital. the act of worship is merely intimating this pursuit.
He is a person, THE person according to christian literature and here is the
problem, christians interpret his life as perfect but others interpret him
as close-minded, free-minded, impossible or irrelevant. This I take from the
bible itself. the teachers of the law saw him as a thorn in their side, a rebel
and a challenger to their views of order and peaceful thought. how can this then
be seen as the perfect model by those that do not favour his teachings?
Later we are introduced to jesus the higher person. An entity that bridges our
partitioned reality to Gods "ultimate" reality. we see now a common denominator.
perfection cannot be generally achieved. perfection is reflective on choice and
Goal. If one accepts God and the teachings of jesus as the perfect path then one
can only pursue this path through jesus' example.
I think to see him as guilt is quite a clever spin on the literature but you fall in danger of missing the important part: Jesus and his life is an analogy for the pursuit of perfect love. Sin is not really the issue here. Jesus delivers his final lesson in destroying sin by achieving unconditional love. perfect love for humanity, Godly love or Agape which allows one to die to self and live for God (who I personally equate to life and creation, knowledge and truth)
I agree on this point, Knowledge as you have presented it is infact the birth of sin. By knowing what is right and turning from it you commit a denial. the knowledge is intimated by self, thus the denial is a denial of self. The turn from the knowledge of good is the textbook definition of sin. By extension one is judged by God for ones knowing refusal of the truth God has made available to you.
Is Jesus literally a social mechanism for instilling guilt for anti-social behaviour?
No, jesus is an example of how to follow a path to a love greater than self, love that preserves the individuals worth and the worth of one in the greater body of existence
And is this worth worshiping, for the real happiness it can bring for living a righteous life?
Love is universally accepted as happiness, pursuing it is natural and in truth vital. the act of worship is merely intimating this pursuit.
“Behind this mask there is more than just flesh. Beneath this mask there is an idea... and ideas are bulletproof Gas-Fireproof.”
#4
Satan
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Posted 20 June 2010 - 01:34 PM
Cold Iron, on 18 June 2010 - 05:45 AM, said:
Ok in an attempt to understand Jesus in a rational context I have been thinking about the following theory.
Jesus is an analogue for your per-pubescent, innocent self, before the first time you knowingly choose to go against the will of authority. Before this time you are the ideal citizen, attempting to do all that is expected of you wherever possible.
Sin is the act of knowingly doing wrong.
Where wrong is something against God.
Where God is the social authority.
And at the moment of your first willful disobedience, your first sin, your innocence, or your innocent self, Jesus, is crucified on the cross. Literally "dying for your sins".
But if you love Jesus, this innocence, if you recognise the error of social disobedience (sin) and strive throughout your life to be the model citizen, as Jesus once was, then you will find happiness in the life (present) and the next (future) despite your sins (past).
Is Jesus literally a social mechanism for instilling guilt for anti-social behaviour?
And is this worth worshiping, for the real happiness it can bring for living a righteous life?
Jesus is an analogue for your per-pubescent, innocent self, before the first time you knowingly choose to go against the will of authority. Before this time you are the ideal citizen, attempting to do all that is expected of you wherever possible.
Sin is the act of knowingly doing wrong.
Where wrong is something against God.
Where God is the social authority.
And at the moment of your first willful disobedience, your first sin, your innocence, or your innocent self, Jesus, is crucified on the cross. Literally "dying for your sins".
But if you love Jesus, this innocence, if you recognise the error of social disobedience (sin) and strive throughout your life to be the model citizen, as Jesus once was, then you will find happiness in the life (present) and the next (future) despite your sins (past).
Is Jesus literally a social mechanism for instilling guilt for anti-social behaviour?
And is this worth worshiping, for the real happiness it can bring for living a righteous life?
Why, hello Freud!
Legalise drugs! And murder!
#6
Cold Iron
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Posted 20 June 2010 - 10:43 PM
Well at least I got some replies.
Uncle Bryn, as you know, I'm an engineer - while I am attempting to work my way through Russel's history of western philosophy, I'm still on Plato, so I apologise if I'm not being original or groundbreaking. This, indeed, is not the first time I've posted a thread and been informed that my idea is similar to a dead philosopher's, however that was Spinoza, so I'm glad I've managed to progress a few hundred years since last time. Anyway even DM gave me a little more info than just pointing out who's ideas I was pilfering - maybe you could fill me in on slightly more modern ideas on the subject?
Dolmen, what you seem to be saying is that while we should repent our own sins, Jesus' greater purpose is to show us that we should also forgive the sins of others, unconditionally - thereby tearing down any barriers to loving and being loved. I can agree with this. It seems though that this is harder to achieve and more easily rejected or forgotten by a majority of Christians, whereas the social guilt aspect is culturally adopted even by agnostics and atheists who happen to live in Christian dominated cultures.
Sindriss I think Dolmen successfully answered your question, real happiness, most assuredly, is love - or intrinsically coupled with love.
Uncle Bryn, as you know, I'm an engineer - while I am attempting to work my way through Russel's history of western philosophy, I'm still on Plato, so I apologise if I'm not being original or groundbreaking. This, indeed, is not the first time I've posted a thread and been informed that my idea is similar to a dead philosopher's, however that was Spinoza, so I'm glad I've managed to progress a few hundred years since last time. Anyway even DM gave me a little more info than just pointing out who's ideas I was pilfering - maybe you could fill me in on slightly more modern ideas on the subject?
Dolmen, what you seem to be saying is that while we should repent our own sins, Jesus' greater purpose is to show us that we should also forgive the sins of others, unconditionally - thereby tearing down any barriers to loving and being loved. I can agree with this. It seems though that this is harder to achieve and more easily rejected or forgotten by a majority of Christians, whereas the social guilt aspect is culturally adopted even by agnostics and atheists who happen to live in Christian dominated cultures.
Sindriss I think Dolmen successfully answered your question, real happiness, most assuredly, is love - or intrinsically coupled with love.
This post has been edited by Cold Iron: 20 June 2010 - 10:44 PM
#7
Powder
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Posted 22 June 2010 - 10:47 AM
Happiness is not the end goal, joy is. These two things are qualitatively different. Happiness can be achieved with or without love as you have defined it. Plenty of people are happy without ever selflessly loving another human being. Joy however only comes about through this kind of love. Love forgives and is free from the burdens of the past. When people are free they can accept each other for who they are and community can develop a deeper level. Love entices others to take part in reciprocal behavior, creating a place where joy can flourish. Certainly this is not the case in many Christian organizations, to our shame. I have found it, here and there, and once you experience it there is no going back. Perhaps the reason it is so rare is because it is so easy to destroy, remove the self sacrificing love and it all falls to pieces.
For instance, many individuals replace love for other with rules as a reason for their behavior. Take stealing for instance. Ask many Christians why they don't steal and they will tell you something that boils down to 'because it is against the rules'. This is most probably due to the fact that this answer is intellectually lazy and requires less effort to uphold. I won't do this to you because I get punished if I do this. The harder answer is, I do not steal because I love the person who I would be stealing from. Given that I love them I do not wish to harm them, and so I do not steal from them. It would break community with them, break trust, and ultimately I would lose my Joy of being with them because my actions would cause a separation which would obviously hinder that.
In following Christ Love is to be the motivator of all things, and Joy is the result. For an interesting philosophical read check out Kierkegaard's book "Works of Love". His style is a bit tedious but worth it, and he will explain this idea much better than I ever could. This book was recommended to me in a class on Nietzche (at a state school) and I have never been the same since reading it.
-Powder
For instance, many individuals replace love for other with rules as a reason for their behavior. Take stealing for instance. Ask many Christians why they don't steal and they will tell you something that boils down to 'because it is against the rules'. This is most probably due to the fact that this answer is intellectually lazy and requires less effort to uphold. I won't do this to you because I get punished if I do this. The harder answer is, I do not steal because I love the person who I would be stealing from. Given that I love them I do not wish to harm them, and so I do not steal from them. It would break community with them, break trust, and ultimately I would lose my Joy of being with them because my actions would cause a separation which would obviously hinder that.
In following Christ Love is to be the motivator of all things, and Joy is the result. For an interesting philosophical read check out Kierkegaard's book "Works of Love". His style is a bit tedious but worth it, and he will explain this idea much better than I ever could. This book was recommended to me in a class on Nietzche (at a state school) and I have never been the same since reading it.
-Powder
#8
Satan
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Posted 22 June 2010 - 03:41 PM
Cold Iron, on 20 June 2010 - 10:43 PM, said:
Well at least I got some replies.
Uncle Bryn, as you know, I'm an engineer - while I am attempting to work my way through Russel's history of western philosophy, I'm still on Plato, so I apologise if I'm not being original or groundbreaking. This, indeed, is not the first time I've posted a thread and been informed that my idea is similar to a dead philosopher's, however that was Spinoza, so I'm glad I've managed to progress a few hundred years since last time. Anyway even DM gave me a little more info than just pointing out who's ideas I was pilfering - maybe you could fill me in on slightly more modern ideas on the subject?
Uncle Bryn, as you know, I'm an engineer - while I am attempting to work my way through Russel's history of western philosophy, I'm still on Plato, so I apologise if I'm not being original or groundbreaking. This, indeed, is not the first time I've posted a thread and been informed that my idea is similar to a dead philosopher's, however that was Spinoza, so I'm glad I've managed to progress a few hundred years since last time. Anyway even DM gave me a little more info than just pointing out who's ideas I was pilfering - maybe you could fill me in on slightly more modern ideas on the subject?
I'm sorry, that comment was off hand and a bit unfair. Your theory of Jesus as sin just sort of reminded me of Freuds explanation of religion (wiki). Although, on closer look, you'd probably closer to Emile Durkheim (wiki). I don't know if any of them wrote anything on Jesus in particular (I don't think they did), so sorry for the digression. Luckily science of religion has moved passed the absurd guess work of Sigmund Freud. Functionalism also aren't really en vogue any more, though Thomas A. Tweed's definition of relgion in his Crossing and Dwelling gives hints (I think) to that old, Durkheimian school.
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#9
ThinkingMalaz
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Posted 29 January 2011 - 12:29 PM
Hmmm I really don't want to be pedantic or anything, but there seem to be several definitions of love floating around which is confusing me. Powder's definition of love looks to me like 'love' could be replaced by 'empathy'. Also Joy (with a capital J) seems to have a very specific meaning beyond the standard meaning, and once again I'm at a loss about you mean by it powder. Could you elaborate?
Jesus as Guilt is one one of the social constructs built around the symbol of jesus, but equovacting it with christianity is not right I think. What jesus represented to his followers through history has significantly changed, and keeps changing. From what little we do know about his first followers they were very much divided on what jesus meant to them. Paul tried to open christianity up to the rest of the world (and eventually succeeded) whilst the leaders in Jerusalem did not as they saw jesus as a purely Jewish messiah, and his message thus not meant for gentiles. The different symbolic aspects of jesus have also fluctuated in importance through history. For example in earliest christianity the focus lay on the resurrection whilst in later times the focus lay on the dying part of the story. I think that many social constructs have risen round the figure and worship of jesus. Some of them have persisted, others virtually destroyed before they got up and going. Now personally I am an atheist but I find religion fascinating, because of how it affects and has affected culture and society. and so I make a case of studying it, and though it has not changed my atheist views, I quickly realized it is a tangled mess of a subject, if only because even one religion has countless different ways of affecting people. Some positive, but a lot of them negative imo. I think Guilt as God is one of the negative ones myself, but nonetheless a fascinating one... Look at me rambling, heck I kinda like your idea But I think it is more complicated is what I was trying to say lol
Jesus as Guilt is one one of the social constructs built around the symbol of jesus, but equovacting it with christianity is not right I think. What jesus represented to his followers through history has significantly changed, and keeps changing. From what little we do know about his first followers they were very much divided on what jesus meant to them. Paul tried to open christianity up to the rest of the world (and eventually succeeded) whilst the leaders in Jerusalem did not as they saw jesus as a purely Jewish messiah, and his message thus not meant for gentiles. The different symbolic aspects of jesus have also fluctuated in importance through history. For example in earliest christianity the focus lay on the resurrection whilst in later times the focus lay on the dying part of the story. I think that many social constructs have risen round the figure and worship of jesus. Some of them have persisted, others virtually destroyed before they got up and going. Now personally I am an atheist but I find religion fascinating, because of how it affects and has affected culture and society. and so I make a case of studying it, and though it has not changed my atheist views, I quickly realized it is a tangled mess of a subject, if only because even one religion has countless different ways of affecting people. Some positive, but a lot of them negative imo. I think Guilt as God is one of the negative ones myself, but nonetheless a fascinating one... Look at me rambling, heck I kinda like your idea But I think it is more complicated is what I was trying to say lol
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