[Osserc - Lord of the Sky]

when Coltaine died in Deadhouse Gates, of course i was surprised and nearly choked up, but i didn't feel as sad for him as for Duiker when he was crucified.


they made Coltaine's death out to be a great, substancial and pivital part in the book, but when Duiker died SE didnt make a big deal about it. Was i supposed to just sit back and accept the fact that a major
character was dead? that's what i love about SE's writing, his ability to kill off characters, (which changes the plot immensely). But Duiker's death did not seem to make a difference in the plot AT ALL!

Did i miss something?

[Defiance]

Why should it make a difference? Duiker wasn't a high mage, he didn't play chess with ascendants, he was just an old, mortal historian who was growing weary of the world.

Duiker already died in spirit earlier in the book, so his death didn't strike me that hard. That, and the fact that he had Coltaine's little "spirit in a crystal" thing.

[Bent]

Baruk of Darujhistan, on 01 June 2010 - 11:30 PM, said:

when Coltaine died in Deadhouse Gates, of course i was surprised and nearly choked up, but i didn't feel as sad for him as for Duiker when he was crucified.


they made Coltaine's death out to be a great, substancial and pivital part in the book, but when Duiker died SE didnt make a big deal about it. Was i supposed to just sit back and accept the fact that a major
character was dead? that's what i love about SE's writing, his ability to kill off characters, (which changes the plot immensely). But Duiker's death did not seem to make a difference in the plot AT ALL!

Did i miss something?

No, but I encourage you to keep reading. There are many instances in the future that will absolutely stun you, and thats all I will say about it.

[SalokinX]

From what I gathered from the end of DG,

Spoiler

he's going to be resurrected anyway.

Not to mention that I just don't feel any emotional connection with any of the characters from SE's books. I don't know why...

While reading A Song of Ice and Fire by George R.R. Martin I would go into a state of shock every time one of the characters died. Sometimes it wasn't even one of the point-of-view characters, and it still hit me like a mailed fist.

I wish I could feel this sensation again, but so far I have not.

[Verjigorm]

SalokinX, on 02 June 2010 - 01:36 AM, said:

Not to mention that I just don't feel any emotional connection with any of the characters from SE's books. I don't know why...

While reading A Song of Ice and Fire by George R.R. Martin I would go into a state of shock every time one of the characters died. Sometimes it wasn't even one of the point-of-view characters, and it still hit me like a mailed fist.

I wish I could feel this sensation again, but so far I have not.

I know what you mean. I guess SE and GRRM have different techniques. With GRRM, you stay with only one character for a whole chapter. Every cahpter has a very clear purpose and evolves the character further. And, although it's funny to say that about GRRM, he uses less pov characters per book, than SE.
SE on the other hand doesn't stay that long with one character and therefore the reader's connection to the characters builds slower than GRRM's. But, given the time, I think he does a great job on establishing unique characters that bond with the reader.

The "mailed fist" with SE strikes you more often regarding the information that is revealed, than due to events exclusively effecting one character.

[Lusipher]

I think Duiker's death is meant to be taken on a more symbolic level as opposed to Coltaine's visceral. Of course Coltaine's death is supposed to elicit that response because here he is, 100 or so yards away from Aren, being struck down after leading a substantial number of people to safety when they would have more than likely been killed otherwise.

Duiker's death is just as sad, though, because he seemed to be the heart and soul of the Chain of Dogs; going through all the highs and lows with him, only to find that he gets killed in the end is heartwrenching in it's own right. By the end of the book, even though he's ready for death, his appreciation for life and "little miracles" has deepened. Also, with his death, the true story of the Chain might never be told, as we saw it only took the nobles a day before they were regaling Pormqual with stories of atrocities that, while true, were more subjective versions of how they saw things. Things that, really were only worried about by them. How many other people could have pulled off what Coltaine did? But, I guess since there are bigger plans for him at some point, this doesn't matter as much. I just think Duiker is more of the spiritual part of the story as opposed to Coltaine's more "physical" part.

[worry]

The death of a good historian impacts the entire world!

[Beezulbubba]

The fall of Duiker:

Spoiler

Quote

Ten thousand dead and dying Malazans stared down on that wide, exquisitely engineered Imperial road -- eyes unseeing or eyes uncomprehending -- it made
little difference.

Duiker was the last, the rusty iron spikes driven through his wrists and upper arms to hold him in place high on the tree's blood-streaked bole. More spikes were
hammered through his ankles and the muscles of his outer thighs.

The pain was unlike anything the historian had ever known before. Yet even worse was the knowledge that the pain would accompany his entire final journey down into
eventual unconsciousness, and with it -- an added trauma -- were the images burned into him: almost forty hours of being driven on foot up Aren Way, watching each and every one of those ten thousand soldiers joined to the mass crucifixion in a chain of suffering stretching over three leagues, each link scores of men and women nailed to every tree, to every available space on those tall, broad trunks.

The historian was well beyond shock when his turn finally came, as the last soldier to close the human chain, and he was dragged to the tree, up the scaffolding, pushed against the ridged bark, arms forced outward, feeling the cold bite of the iron spikes pressed against his skin, and then, when the mallets swung, the explosion of pain that loosed his bowels, leaving him stained and writhing. The greatest pain arrived when the scaffolding dropped from under him, and his full weight fell onto the pinning spikes. Until that moment, he had truly believed he had gone as far into agony as was humanly possible.

He was wrong.

Yeah.... suffice it to say, if that doesn't stir something within you, your own biases are preventing you from liking Duiker (and this fine series by SE).

[Defiance]

Not very much, Beezul. Sure, I did feel bad, but the impact wasn't anywhere near as great as it was for Coltaine. What impacted me was the 10,000 soldiers crucified along Aren Way, much more than Duiker's death. While his death was extremely painful, as I said before he'd already died in spirit long ago. Seeing Coltaine die took the shattered pieces of his soul and crushed them into a thousand more. That said, I feel bad for him that he doesn't get to rest in peace.

[Benn Greenbow]

Thee's almost too much violence in Malazan for me, and that's saying alot. But I'm glad to see that some main characters are killed because yes it does change the plot and the deaths are bold moves by SE. I'm on book 3 now and I'm just trying to grasp it all. I did like Duiker though, sad and happy at the same time to see him go.

[SalokinX]

Benn Greenbow, on 11 June 2010 - 12:41 AM, said:

Thee's almost too much violence in Malazan for me, and that's saying alot. But I'm glad to see that some main characters are killed because yes it does change the plot and the deaths are bold moves by SE. I'm on book 3 now and I'm just trying to grasp it all. I did like Duiker though, sad and happy at the same time to see him go.

Beh, Duiker was too soft. I liked Coltaine, that's the man!

[SalokinX]

Whoa, thanks for throwing that huge spoiler there. I thought it was a spoiler from Deadhouse Gates. Please edit =/

[Beezulbubba]

[Edit] I deleted the "spoiler" post.... nothing see here, move on.

[Ulrik]

SalokinX, on 11 June 2010 - 02:47 AM, said:

Beh, Duiker was too soft. I liked Coltaine, that's the man!

Soft??? Oldie went thru whole Chain of Dogs, got his share of battles, got laid, without Coltaine´s three-quarter ascendancy (erm, bad sorting of words, isnt it?) ...and you say soft???)

But yeah, his crucifying didnt hit me...not as strong as Fall and Fall hit me because of men at walls and Bult, List...

This post has been edited by Ulrik: 11 June 2010 - 05:33 AM

[Beezulbubba]

He (Duiker) did get pissed enough such that he had to be choked into unconsciousness when he had his hands around Nethpara's neck (even though Nethpara was a "fancy pants", coddled noble).... so that is something, especially for a historian who's main task was to record events.

Coltain's death was heroic. Duiker's was just sad. Each evoke different feelings in the reader. I was pissed when I read Contain's demise, but got pumped up when the crows came for his soul. When I read Duiker's last moments I just had a feeling of sadness.

This song: http://www.youtube.c...h?v=oiGEKOVrTeQ sets the mood for me when thinking about the mass of crucified soldiers along Aren Way.

[Tatterdemalion]

Yeah, the key here is Duiker's death isn't surprising. So if you're trying to compare it to GRRM deaths you're #$@! out of luck. With Duiker, as with Heboric, you're watching the slow decay of two older men who thought they had kind of seen it all already - and the depravity rips holes in them. And yes, it's a slow deflate. Duiker's death is like watching a dog crawl into the corner, lie down, and die. Sad and pitiful. Pulled down by the weight around him.

Coltaine you never get POV of - he's not a character you're supposed to sympathize with, he's a character you're supposed to idolize. So when he goes, it's not sadness you feel - you didn't just lose a friend - it's injustice and anger because it was not right. So you're not going to tear up or anything, just grit your teeth and rage.

The...

Spoiler

soul bottle for Duiker and Coltaine crows

...are more SE's way of providing a modicum of reward.

[Shadow of Shadowthrone]

Duiker's death struck me harder than Coltaine's, no doubt. Coltaine was just so underdeveloped in comparison.
But like Tom Araya said above, it is much harder to connect on an emotional level with Malazan characters than Westeros characters.
But at the same time I feel the Malazan Empire itself - the setting, I mean - is more intriguing than Westeros.
So reading both series = great stuff all over

[Osserc - Lord of the Sky]

thanks for your shared opinions

[All4Rake]

Baruk of Darujhistan, on 01 June 2010 - 11:30 PM, said:

when Coltaine died in Deadhouse Gates, of course i was surprised and nearly choked up, but i didn't feel as sad for him as for Duiker when he was crucified.


they made Coltaine's death out to be a great, substancial and pivital part in the book, but when Duiker died SE didnt make a big deal about it. Was i supposed to just sit back and accept the fact that a major
character was dead? that's what i love about SE's writing, his ability to kill off characters, (which changes the plot immensely). But Duiker's death did not seem to make a difference in the plot AT ALL!

Did i miss something?

I had a similar reaction but I think it’s understandable.

The death of Coltaine was a huge blow with the cruel sense of wasted sacrifice, with me almost crying out loud “It doesn’t have to be like that!” It was followed very closely with the betrayal and execution of Aren’s defenders, ten thousand men stalked to the trees. Mind-blowing violence, catastrophe of inhuman proportions. Duiker was one of these ten thousand. As the matter of fact he was the last of these ten thousand and this was the whole point: his death was not more tragic than the fate of any other of them. Besides, by the time Duiker died I pretty much exhausted all my resources of sympathy/compassion/grieve. One can take only that much shock before all the feelings go numb.



I think the reason why GRRM’s characters seem to be loser to us is because they are also more open. Their POV allows us more insights, we can learn their thoughts, their personalities, some little private things about them that make them almost alive for us. I think in the later MBotF books (MoI) we see more of it and it makes a difference. I don’t want to spoil but some events there touched me deeply…

[Lousy]

worrywort, on 02 June 2010 - 05:30 PM, said:

The death of a good historian impacts the entire world!

So true! And this is what surprised my about Duiker being crucified at all! Who else is going to tell the story? (Well, other than SE) ... it all seems rather a waste, unless I am misunderstanding -- but I was of the impression that only official Historians could write of such events...??