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@ Hetan: Thanks. I re-read that part. One point, the way Ruin talks about the 'Eres' it sounds as if he is talking about an individual not the whole race (English is my second language so I can't be sure). Perhaps he meant Eres'al the Nerek Godess.
The Eres and Kurald Thryllan
#3
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Posted 13 July 2005 - 11:31 PM
quote:Originally posted by Amirebram:
>> Really? I missed that. Where was it?quote:Silchas explained it all in MT. quite succinctly.
I thought their "dimention" worked on a "differet clock" than others; thus that Eres woman appearing out of nowhere to rape Trull. But I didn't think they could go back and forth in time.
And keep in m ind that the Eres and Edur are both unhuman. I would imagine a child of the two to look unhuman as well, but no one seems to comment on that. And kettled died anyways, and her body was invested with a Furkul Assail soul; so who cares about her parents?
Kettle's body was that of a human child who died. It contains two souls..one is Forkrul Assail and the other is the child of the Eres and Trull.
You ask who cares about her parents?
I've transcribed what Silchas tells Kettle :
"Knowing how the Eres play the game, lass, he might not even be your father yet. She wanders time Kettle, in a manner no-one else can even understand, much less emulate. And this is very much her world. She is the fire that never dies." He paused then said "She will choose - or has chosen with great deliberation. Your father is, or will be someone of great importance".
So that's why we care about Kettle's parents
it's page 396/7 hardback.
#4 Guest_Binadas_*
Posted 21 July 2005 - 06:47 PM
Um I don't know about stealing fire from the gods but I was more impressed when one Eres stole some sperm or fire down below. Actually, that scene still freaks me out.
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#5
amirebram 
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Posted 11 July 2005 - 11:22 AM
I can see that you'r upto something there; but, personally, I am completly confused. Would explaine a little more? Perhaps add a quote or two to make your point clearer (on the Imass conection to the Eres and Kettle, the the Edur Assail conection). Thanks..
#6
Rich the Great
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Posted 11 July 2005 - 12:57 PM
quote:Originally posted by Hetan:
At least, I made some wierd connection in my head as to Kettle being the answer to the Seventh Closure and Rhulad etc etc.
When Kettle is describing seeing herself (as a Forkrul Assail) dying with the Nameless Ones around her in MT, one of the NO describes her as the answer to the Seventh Closure. Or something along those lines.
#7 Guest_LKM_*
Posted 10 July 2005 - 05:27 PM
I was flipping through HoC the other day and noticed something kind of weird. Aside from the fact that the Imass had never seen them before, the Tiste Losers are looking for the "thieves of the fire" (re: Gesler, Stormy, Truth, and Baudin before he . . . uh . . . had that accident). This rang a parallel with MT, where it's remarked that the Eres' claim to fame is 'stealing fire from the gods' (p139) -- the Eres, who existed long before the Imass. So . . .
The Losers sealed their branch of Thryllan (or possibly had it sealed for them by L'oric, Osric, or one of the other HHLight folks), but do we know why? True, they're unabashedly racist in regards to their Tiste brothers, but was there a greater need to seal the warren than just to keep the riff-raff out? I'm willing to bet Eres-thief-of-fire-and-Trull's-virginity was a reason they changed the locks on Thryllan . . .
Then again, after Kettle I think the Eres might technically be her own grandmother at this point.
Nice little loop around by SE in having the Nerek's Edur blood react to an Edur woman's sanctification before their forefather even begot them -- especially since it was that sanctification that awoke the Eres again to set her on a path to find the man who would create the link that would awaken her (and geez, trying to hold that one in my head is getting difficult ).
Of course, on the subject of Kettle I still can't quite figure out the "blood-of-kin" thing, because the Nerek witches were talking to the FA Nameless One when they said that, and the time they spent waiting was so the AZATH could choose an appropriate body, so Kettle isn't necessarily the Nerek link (though fortunately for my brain my inside-out-theory on why the Edur sanctification still works without Kettle specifically being the begat). However, didn't the Imass say in HoC that the Eres was "always" searching for something? And something about the way the Bonecaster said they had the minds of beasts made me think that maybe Trull wasn't her first outer-species fling. As creepy as it sounds to get a FA hybrid, the Jaghut, Tiste, and Theolomen are all known to have cross-bred -- and hey, if you're already a completely different species like an eres, is there really that big a difference between an Edur and an Assail?
The Losers sealed their branch of Thryllan (or possibly had it sealed for them by L'oric, Osric, or one of the other HHLight folks), but do we know why? True, they're unabashedly racist in regards to their Tiste brothers, but was there a greater need to seal the warren than just to keep the riff-raff out? I'm willing to bet Eres-thief-of-fire-and-Trull's-virginity was a reason they changed the locks on Thryllan . . .
Then again, after Kettle I think the Eres might technically be her own grandmother at this point.
Nice little loop around by SE in having the Nerek's Edur blood react to an Edur woman's sanctification before their forefather even begot them -- especially since it was that sanctification that awoke the Eres again to set her on a path to find the man who would create the link that would awaken her (and geez, trying to hold that one in my head is getting difficult ). Of course, on the subject of Kettle I still can't quite figure out the "blood-of-kin" thing, because the Nerek witches were talking to the FA Nameless One when they said that, and the time they spent waiting was so the AZATH could choose an appropriate body, so Kettle isn't necessarily the Nerek link (though fortunately for my brain my inside-out-theory on why the Edur sanctification still works without Kettle specifically being the begat). However, didn't the Imass say in HoC that the Eres was "always" searching for something? And something about the way the Bonecaster said they had the minds of beasts made me think that maybe Trull wasn't her first outer-species fling. As creepy as it sounds to get a FA hybrid, the Jaghut, Tiste, and Theolomen are all known to have cross-bred -- and hey, if you're already a completely different species like an eres, is there really that big a difference between an Edur and an Assail?
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Jorram
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Posted 13 July 2005 - 10:52 PM
By what I gathered from MT, the Eres'al (the Nerek goddess) is either a very powerful (magicwise) Eres individual, or simply all of them are that powerful and she certainly is the one who raped Trull and gave birth to Kettle.
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amirebram
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Posted 13 July 2005 - 08:49 PM
>> Really? I missed that. Where was it?quote:Silchas explained it all in MT. quite succinctly.
I thought their "dimention" worked on a "differet clock" than others; thus that Eres woman appearing out of nowhere to rape Trull. But I didn't think they could go back and forth in time.
And keep in m ind that the Eres and Edur are both unhuman. I would imagine a child of the two to look unhuman as well, but no one seems to comment on that. And kettled died anyways, and her body was invested with a Furkul Assail soul; so who cares about her parents?
#10
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Posted 16 July 2005 - 03:31 AM
quote:Originally posted by LKM:
Yet Onrack notices blood at Trull's crotch, as if he had been her first mate. This looks like a tie to Hull's comment about the three goddesses seeming more like roles than individuals. The Grandmother figure of the Nerek has once again assumed the role of Maiden, and then, with Kettle, Mother. Talk about eliptical . . .
Not a maiden no, the blood was from the scarification cuts the Eres had applied..
Foregt the tiste thing with Kettle.. her body is that of a human child.. it's her twin souls that are FA, and the eres/edur combo.
#11 Guest_Dakkareth_*
Posted 28 July 2005 - 06:26 AM
Ahhh ... quotes and theories, THIS is how it is done!
But I think I'll withhold actual replies until I've finished my current re-read of MT.
But I think I'll withhold actual replies until I've finished my current re-read of MT.
#12 Guest_LKM_*
Posted 12 July 2005 - 09:24 PM
Okay, if I'm gonna cite examples, I'm gonna do it right. Unfortunately my assumptions are drawn from all over the place, so I've ended up transcribing what feels like half of MT. Enjoy. : p
For completion's sake, here's the original myth:
". . . [the Nerek were] all born of a single mother, countless generations past, who was the thief of fire and walked through time, seeking that which might answer a need that consumed her -- although she could never discover the nature of that need. One time, in her journey, she took within her a sacred seed, and so gave birth to a girl-child. To all outward appearances, that child was little different from her mother, for the sacredness was hidden, and so it remains hidden to this day. Within the Nerek, who are the offspring of that child."
. . .
"And does this first mother's mother have a name?"
"Ah, you noted the confused blending of the two, as if they were roles rather than distinct individuals. Maiden, mother and grandmother . . . In any case, she is known by a number of related names, also suggesting variations of a single person. Eres, N'eres, Eres'al."
(Conversation between Hull Beddict and Seren Pedac, MT 193-194)
I'm not gonna take the time to quote them all, but for those interested, the HoC convos about the Eres occurr around 886-890ish. 886-887 (Eres as being bonecasters who predate the Imass), 888 (their holy sites and how they burn through Tellann), 889-890 (her rape of Trull and the ur-warren she uses).
. . . I have a notebook. Stop looking at me like that.
And now here are some passages where people try to figure out how Mayen's blessing can have any effect on the Nerek.
"It seems that even they do not comprehend the full significance of that blessing."
"This was never their land, was it?"
"I don't know. The Edur certainly claim to have always been here, from the time when the ice first retreated from the world."
(Hull Beddict and Seren Pedac, MT 193)
"An Edur's blessing could do that? Sanctify the ground?"
"Maybe. I don't know. But there could be a binding. Of destinies, depending on the purity of Mayen's bloodline, on all that awaits her in her life . . ."
(Udinaas and Feather Witch, MT 191)
"Their hearth and the surrounding area has seen sanctification. Of course that must be respected. But I have sensed little power from that blessing."
"Do not let that deceive you. The spirits they worship are the oldest this world has known. Those spirits do not manifest in ways we might easily recognized."
. . .
"The weakness the Letherii exploited was found in the mortal Nerek, not in the spirits they worshipped. It is our belief now, Hannan Mosag, that the Eres'al was not truly awakened. She did not rise to defend those who worshipped her."
"Yet something has changed."
"Something has. Begun with the blessing of the Edur woman who is now my wife."
(Conversation between Rhulad and Hannan Mosag, MT 368)
So: The sanctification was probably not due to the land being reunited with its native owners, for the Nerek don't appear to have been indigenous to that region and the Edur claim to have been the original inhabitants. There is also no direct link between the Nerek and Edur that would set precedent for the sanctification, yet the blessing has somehow reawakened the Eres. So, a binding of blood, or a binding of destiny -- maybe both.
The sanctification theory runs like this: the sanctification from an Edur woman acted as a kind of self-fulfilling prophecy. An Edur woman's blessing worked because the Nerek had traces of Edur blood. This blessing awoke the Eres, who then travelled forward in time to acquire for her children the Edur blood that had given the blessing its power in the first place. (Yes, it would be a paradox, but that doesn't seem out of character in this instance.)
And on Kettle's two selves:
"Six of us. We'd walked a long way, because of the dreams. We'd been in the city for weeks, waiting for the Azath to choose someone. But I wasn't the same as the five others, though we were here for the same reason, and we'd travelled together. They were Nerek witches, and they'd prepared me. The me on the outside, not the me all wrapped up."
"The you on the outside, Kettle, were you a child?"
"Oh no. I was tall. Not as tall as you. And I had to wear my hood up, so no-one could seehow different I was. I'd come from very far away. I'd walked, when I was young, hot sands -- the sands that covered the first Empire. Whatever that is. . . They called me the Nameless One. . . . It was a title. They said I'd been prepared from birth. That I was a true child of Eres. And that I was the answer to the Seventh Closure, because I had the blood of kin."
(Kettle talks to Silchas Ruin, MT 396-397)
This is the part that gives me the most trouble, because it clearly states that it was the Azath that chose Kettle, not the Nerek witches. It also appears that the entity with the Nameless One title was the same who was prepared from birth. There's some leeway, because I guess they could have been describing the human-child once the part about preparation comes in and Kettle just maintained the first person, or maybe they only found out about the human-child's lineage/destiny later (or knew about it, but didn't expect the connection with the Azath) -- maybe the connection turned out to be a pleasant surprise.
And you know what? I hope they were talking about the human-part. Because in no way does my brain have the capacity to comprehend how Edur + Eres = Forkul Assail. Also, it kills my theory on the Nerek having Edur blood, and I'm not going to give that one up because figuring it out still hurts my brain.
However, I now I know why mention of the First Empire made me nervous. The Eres were indeed in Raraku at one point (there's physical proof in HoC 900, where Bottle picks up a hand-axe made by one), and she is established as part of the Tanno Spiritwalker's song:
"My grandmother spoke of the Eres. The Dwellers who lived in the time before the Imass, the first makers of tools, the first shapers of the world. I never expected to meet one -- it was there, she was there, in that song with you. . . . She was the one who gifted you with the silence."
(Bottle after something finally stops the song running through Fiddler's head, HoC 900-901)
So, discounting the highly unlikely possibility that the Forkul Assail was the real child of Eres, at the very least it seems there was some opportunity for one to meet the Eres and become entangled with her destiny. (And right now I'm trying to ignore the fact that Bottle believes he'll see the Eres again, if only because Bottle seriously makes my brain twitch.)
Anyway, did that help clear up what I was trying to say?
For completion's sake, here's the original myth:
". . . [the Nerek were] all born of a single mother, countless generations past, who was the thief of fire and walked through time, seeking that which might answer a need that consumed her -- although she could never discover the nature of that need. One time, in her journey, she took within her a sacred seed, and so gave birth to a girl-child. To all outward appearances, that child was little different from her mother, for the sacredness was hidden, and so it remains hidden to this day. Within the Nerek, who are the offspring of that child."
. . .
"And does this first mother's mother have a name?"
"Ah, you noted the confused blending of the two, as if they were roles rather than distinct individuals. Maiden, mother and grandmother . . . In any case, she is known by a number of related names, also suggesting variations of a single person. Eres, N'eres, Eres'al."
(Conversation between Hull Beddict and Seren Pedac, MT 193-194)
I'm not gonna take the time to quote them all, but for those interested, the HoC convos about the Eres occurr around 886-890ish. 886-887 (Eres as being bonecasters who predate the Imass), 888 (their holy sites and how they burn through Tellann), 889-890 (her rape of Trull and the ur-warren she uses).
. . . I have a notebook. Stop looking at me like that.
And now here are some passages where people try to figure out how Mayen's blessing can have any effect on the Nerek.
"It seems that even they do not comprehend the full significance of that blessing."
"This was never their land, was it?"
"I don't know. The Edur certainly claim to have always been here, from the time when the ice first retreated from the world."
(Hull Beddict and Seren Pedac, MT 193)
"An Edur's blessing could do that? Sanctify the ground?"
"Maybe. I don't know. But there could be a binding. Of destinies, depending on the purity of Mayen's bloodline, on all that awaits her in her life . . ."
(Udinaas and Feather Witch, MT 191)
"Their hearth and the surrounding area has seen sanctification. Of course that must be respected. But I have sensed little power from that blessing."
"Do not let that deceive you. The spirits they worship are the oldest this world has known. Those spirits do not manifest in ways we might easily recognized."
. . .
"The weakness the Letherii exploited was found in the mortal Nerek, not in the spirits they worshipped. It is our belief now, Hannan Mosag, that the Eres'al was not truly awakened. She did not rise to defend those who worshipped her."
"Yet something has changed."
"Something has. Begun with the blessing of the Edur woman who is now my wife."
(Conversation between Rhulad and Hannan Mosag, MT 368)
So: The sanctification was probably not due to the land being reunited with its native owners, for the Nerek don't appear to have been indigenous to that region and the Edur claim to have been the original inhabitants. There is also no direct link between the Nerek and Edur that would set precedent for the sanctification, yet the blessing has somehow reawakened the Eres. So, a binding of blood, or a binding of destiny -- maybe both.
The sanctification theory runs like this: the sanctification from an Edur woman acted as a kind of self-fulfilling prophecy. An Edur woman's blessing worked because the Nerek had traces of Edur blood. This blessing awoke the Eres, who then travelled forward in time to acquire for her children the Edur blood that had given the blessing its power in the first place. (Yes, it would be a paradox, but that doesn't seem out of character in this instance.)
And on Kettle's two selves:
"Six of us. We'd walked a long way, because of the dreams. We'd been in the city for weeks, waiting for the Azath to choose someone. But I wasn't the same as the five others, though we were here for the same reason, and we'd travelled together. They were Nerek witches, and they'd prepared me. The me on the outside, not the me all wrapped up."
"The you on the outside, Kettle, were you a child?"
"Oh no. I was tall. Not as tall as you. And I had to wear my hood up, so no-one could seehow different I was. I'd come from very far away. I'd walked, when I was young, hot sands -- the sands that covered the first Empire. Whatever that is. . . They called me the Nameless One. . . . It was a title. They said I'd been prepared from birth. That I was a true child of Eres. And that I was the answer to the Seventh Closure, because I had the blood of kin."
(Kettle talks to Silchas Ruin, MT 396-397)
This is the part that gives me the most trouble, because it clearly states that it was the Azath that chose Kettle, not the Nerek witches. It also appears that the entity with the Nameless One title was the same who was prepared from birth. There's some leeway, because I guess they could have been describing the human-child once the part about preparation comes in and Kettle just maintained the first person, or maybe they only found out about the human-child's lineage/destiny later (or knew about it, but didn't expect the connection with the Azath) -- maybe the connection turned out to be a pleasant surprise.
And you know what? I hope they were talking about the human-part. Because in no way does my brain have the capacity to comprehend how Edur + Eres = Forkul Assail. Also, it kills my theory on the Nerek having Edur blood, and I'm not going to give that one up because figuring it out still hurts my brain.
However, I now I know why mention of the First Empire made me nervous. The Eres were indeed in Raraku at one point (there's physical proof in HoC 900, where Bottle picks up a hand-axe made by one), and she is established as part of the Tanno Spiritwalker's song:
"My grandmother spoke of the Eres. The Dwellers who lived in the time before the Imass, the first makers of tools, the first shapers of the world. I never expected to meet one -- it was there, she was there, in that song with you. . . . She was the one who gifted you with the silence."
(Bottle after something finally stops the song running through Fiddler's head, HoC 900-901)
So, discounting the highly unlikely possibility that the Forkul Assail was the real child of Eres, at the very least it seems there was some opportunity for one to meet the Eres and become entangled with her destiny. (And right now I'm trying to ignore the fact that Bottle believes he'll see the Eres again, if only because Bottle seriously makes my brain twitch.)
Anyway, did that help clear up what I was trying to say?
#13
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Posted 13 July 2005 - 07:28 AM
quote:Originally posted by Amirebram:
A little correctoin: The woman who f***ed Udinass was Menandore (or Dawn). She is the individual who can travel thru time. On the other hand the woman that "stole Trull's seed" was of an early race named Eres (sp?). She cannot travel time, and she isn't Edur. Thus I don't think that Kettle is Trull's daughter.
You are correct in that Manadore raped Udinass.
Their child is a boy - Rud Ellal
However the Eres who raped Trull also is a time traveller. Silchas explained it all in MT. quite succinctly.
#14 Guest_LKM_*
Posted 16 July 2005 - 12:29 AM
The Eres is a race, yeah, and all were bonecasters (HoC 886-887) but it's also definitely the name of one incarnation of the Nerek goddess -- the 'maiden' incarnation (see quoted passage above). Strangely, Rhulad, working from the CG's information, specifically refers to the spirit awakened as the Eres'al -- the 'grandmother'. This goes with the scene where Trull is raped (by a creature described as "the Eres woman," not "the Eres"), because "there had been nothing to her appearance suggesting her virginity. Her breasts had swollen with milk in the past; her nipples had known the pressure of a pup's hunger." (HoC889) Yet Onrack notices blood at Trull's crotch, as if he had been her first mate. This looks like a tie to Hull's comment about the three goddesses seeming more like roles than individuals. The Grandmother figure of the Nerek has once again assumed the role of Maiden, and then, with Kettle, Mother. Talk about eliptical . . .
As for Kettle looking human when she was begot by an Edur and an Eres, well, a few things. From what I recall, nothing really separates Tiste from humans but their features and skin-color (black, grey, white); the Andii have fluctuating eye-color, but the Edur do not seem to. Their eyes are 'almond-shaped' according to several accounts, with I think a bit of epicanthal fold. Aside from this, they don't appear hugely different from humans. A little comment from Onrack about Trull supports this -- "The Shorning had made much of excizing the physical traits that would identify Trull Sengar as Tiste Edur. The bald pate, the scarred brow." (HoC 872) No mention of pointy ears or anything. Something from HoC (584), when L'oric talks to the Queen of Dreams, may also be a clue: she says that L'oric's done a good job of hiding his Tiste traits, which L'oric replies is something the Liosan are skilled at. She says "As are all the Tiste." followed by a brief account of how Rake spent two hundred years as a human bodyguard, disguised in the same way. (PS: I think he was serving the D'Avore family, given his connection with the Crimson Guard . . .)
So really, the Tiste don't look that different. The Eres is a bit trickier, but it looks like the most inhuman thing about her is her (fine) pelt of fur. She was described as having "prominent, flaring cheekbones, a broad, full-lipped mouth . . . dark brown eyes, shadowed beneath a solid brow" (HoC 889) -- and Kettle's got a "heart-shaped face", which is a pretty way of saying she's got a broad face that narrows at the chin, so those features may have overpowered any that would tip anyone off that she was half-Edur. As to where the grey skin or pelt went I don't know . . . protective camoflage in a world of humans, maybe?
As for Kettle looking human when she was begot by an Edur and an Eres, well, a few things. From what I recall, nothing really separates Tiste from humans but their features and skin-color (black, grey, white); the Andii have fluctuating eye-color, but the Edur do not seem to. Their eyes are 'almond-shaped' according to several accounts, with I think a bit of epicanthal fold. Aside from this, they don't appear hugely different from humans. A little comment from Onrack about Trull supports this -- "The Shorning had made much of excizing the physical traits that would identify Trull Sengar as Tiste Edur. The bald pate, the scarred brow." (HoC 872) No mention of pointy ears or anything. Something from HoC (584), when L'oric talks to the Queen of Dreams, may also be a clue: she says that L'oric's done a good job of hiding his Tiste traits, which L'oric replies is something the Liosan are skilled at. She says "As are all the Tiste." followed by a brief account of how Rake spent two hundred years as a human bodyguard, disguised in the same way. (PS: I think he was serving the D'Avore family, given his connection with the Crimson Guard . . .)
So really, the Tiste don't look that different. The Eres is a bit trickier, but it looks like the most inhuman thing about her is her (fine) pelt of fur. She was described as having "prominent, flaring cheekbones, a broad, full-lipped mouth . . . dark brown eyes, shadowed beneath a solid brow" (HoC 889) -- and Kettle's got a "heart-shaped face", which is a pretty way of saying she's got a broad face that narrows at the chin, so those features may have overpowered any that would tip anyone off that she was half-Edur. As to where the grey skin or pelt went I don't know . . . protective camoflage in a world of humans, maybe?
#15 Guest_LKM_*
Posted 11 July 2005 - 08:07 PM
Gah. The most annoying thing about being in Japan is that I have to leave my books to access a computer. (The dorm has no internet hookup. Technologically advanced country my ass.) However, I'll come back with quotes. There are a couple of specific points in MT and HoC I can think of that'll either clear things up or make it even more confusing. : p
I do know that in HoC a convo between Trull, Onrack, and the two remaining Imass revealed that the Eres predated the Imass, and that their holy sites burned through the Tellann warren. The bonecaster didn't seem too impressed by them as a species, but Onrack (I think) said they were the first to have the spark of awareness. When she rapes Trull Onrack says he she hit him with a projection of a barely-formed warren, so it seems they've got primative magic as well as awareness. (Oh, and to add a new layer of confusion, they're apparently a part of the Tanno Spirtwalker's song of Raraku/the Bridgeburners, as Bottle says one was there with Fiddler in the song. This would make sense, since IIRC Raraku is basically the Malazan equivalent of the cradle of life, but it makes me kind of nervous.)
I also remember my real problem with the kin-thing being that it was the NO Forkul Assail part that the Nerek witch was talking to when the "blood of kin" was mentioned, as human-Kettle was already on the slab. Whether the Nerek was referring to the FA next to her or the corpse of the human with that statement is what's giving me a headache -- I mean, from Kettle's POV they were both her. I'll try and dig up the section.
Hetan, 'cross-polination' does have a nice ring to it in regards to some characters. I mean, can you really see, say, Gothos ever getting close enough to actually touch another being? : )
But what I meant by the Nerek having Edur blood is this: the Nerek are descended from the daughter of the Eres, who had a spark of divine-something-or-other hidden within her. Now, IF that founding mother was the child of Trull and the Eres, that means that mother carried Edur blood -- which was in turn passed to her children. Though there's no question the Nerek are human, I'm wondering if there isn't some other trace way back from the beginning -- like the Barghast (who I believe are considered human) being not only the descendants of the Imass, but distantly related to Theoloman Toblakai through intermarriage with the Imass. Furthermore, the nobility of the Bluerose are known to have the blood of Tiste Andii, and it seems they're largely considered human (though whether or not this is due to ignorance I'm not sure). Anyway, if there is such a blood-tie to the Edur, even a distant one, there would be a foundation for the Edur sanctification reactivating the dormant Eres. I'm not saying the Edur are divine, but, as Hetan pointed out, they aren't of this world -- and that could by itself be construed as 'divine' by a culture with little knowledge of the warrens, at least as they're known now -- the Eres' brand of magic seems quite different. (And if you're wondering how Trull's beget could be both Kettle at the end of the Seventh Closure and the distant ancestor of the Nerek, don't forget that Mommy's claim to fame is time-walking, and that there seems to be some confusion between the role of the daughter and the role of the mother . . .)
Ooookay, gonna find those quotes now. Good thing I started keeping notes on my second read-through. : p
I do know that in HoC a convo between Trull, Onrack, and the two remaining Imass revealed that the Eres predated the Imass, and that their holy sites burned through the Tellann warren. The bonecaster didn't seem too impressed by them as a species, but Onrack (I think) said they were the first to have the spark of awareness. When she rapes Trull Onrack says he she hit him with a projection of a barely-formed warren, so it seems they've got primative magic as well as awareness. (Oh, and to add a new layer of confusion, they're apparently a part of the Tanno Spirtwalker's song of Raraku/the Bridgeburners, as Bottle says one was there with Fiddler in the song. This would make sense, since IIRC Raraku is basically the Malazan equivalent of the cradle of life, but it makes me kind of nervous.)
I also remember my real problem with the kin-thing being that it was the NO Forkul Assail part that the Nerek witch was talking to when the "blood of kin" was mentioned, as human-Kettle was already on the slab. Whether the Nerek was referring to the FA next to her or the corpse of the human with that statement is what's giving me a headache -- I mean, from Kettle's POV they were both her. I'll try and dig up the section.
Hetan, 'cross-polination' does have a nice ring to it in regards to some characters. I mean, can you really see, say, Gothos ever getting close enough to actually touch another being? : )
But what I meant by the Nerek having Edur blood is this: the Nerek are descended from the daughter of the Eres, who had a spark of divine-something-or-other hidden within her. Now, IF that founding mother was the child of Trull and the Eres, that means that mother carried Edur blood -- which was in turn passed to her children. Though there's no question the Nerek are human, I'm wondering if there isn't some other trace way back from the beginning -- like the Barghast (who I believe are considered human) being not only the descendants of the Imass, but distantly related to Theoloman Toblakai through intermarriage with the Imass. Furthermore, the nobility of the Bluerose are known to have the blood of Tiste Andii, and it seems they're largely considered human (though whether or not this is due to ignorance I'm not sure). Anyway, if there is such a blood-tie to the Edur, even a distant one, there would be a foundation for the Edur sanctification reactivating the dormant Eres. I'm not saying the Edur are divine, but, as Hetan pointed out, they aren't of this world -- and that could by itself be construed as 'divine' by a culture with little knowledge of the warrens, at least as they're known now -- the Eres' brand of magic seems quite different. (And if you're wondering how Trull's beget could be both Kettle at the end of the Seventh Closure and the distant ancestor of the Nerek, don't forget that Mommy's claim to fame is time-walking, and that there seems to be some confusion between the role of the daughter and the role of the mother . . .)
Ooookay, gonna find those quotes now. Good thing I started keeping notes on my second read-through. : p
#16
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Posted 11 July 2005 - 11:57 AM
The blood of kin referred to Trull, her father?
At least, I made some wierd connection in my head as to Kettle being the answer to the Seventh Closure and Rhulad etc etc.
Of course it could purely relate to Tiste blood in general?
oh yeah, and not sure why you connect the Nerek with the Edur, because the Edur are not of this world?
Are you thinking simply along the lines of cross pollination?
Because aren't the Nerek human descendent and not Tiste?
At least, I made some wierd connection in my head as to Kettle being the answer to the Seventh Closure and Rhulad etc etc.
Of course it could purely relate to Tiste blood in general?
oh yeah, and not sure why you connect the Nerek with the Edur, because the Edur are not of this world?
quote:Nice little loop around by SE in having the Nerek's Edur blood react to an Edur woman's sanctification
Are you thinking simply along the lines of cross pollination?
Because aren't the Nerek human descendent and not Tiste?
#17
amirebram
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Posted 12 July 2005 - 09:40 PM
A little correctoin: The woman who f***ed Udinass was Menandore (or Dawn). She is the individual who can travel thru time. On the other hand the woman that "stole Trull's seed" was of an early race named Eres (sp?). She cannot travel time, and she isn't Edur. Thus I don't think that Kettle is Trull's daughter.
It is also unlikely that she is Undinases daughter either (I actually thought that child was a boy). Kettel's body is of little relevance anyways, since her heart was Forkul Assail, which has nothing in common with Edur or Eres.
The "Eres'al" that Nerek consider their godess and the "Eres" the early race are like the "First Empire," different things with similar names.
The Tano Song sang the story of the BB, and that story started and ended in Raraku. Raraku is alive, I think that Raraku actually entered the song rather than taking it over. What does that mean for Raraku? I don't know, but entering the Song Raraku would become part of it. If the Song brought long dead BB back then it could just as easily revive Raraku. We saw the sea return, why not dead spirits of Raraku?
It is also unlikely that she is Undinases daughter either (I actually thought that child was a boy). Kettel's body is of little relevance anyways, since her heart was Forkul Assail, which has nothing in common with Edur or Eres.
The "Eres'al" that Nerek consider their godess and the "Eres" the early race are like the "First Empire," different things with similar names.
The Tano Song sang the story of the BB, and that story started and ended in Raraku. Raraku is alive, I think that Raraku actually entered the song rather than taking it over. What does that mean for Raraku? I don't know, but entering the Song Raraku would become part of it. If the Song brought long dead BB back then it could just as easily revive Raraku. We saw the sea return, why not dead spirits of Raraku?
#18
Imperial Historian
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Posted 01 August 2005 - 08:15 PM
I really like that theory of yours LKM and your confusion about the appearence of child kettle is resolved when you consider that kettle is just a normal dead human child (as far as we know)
So we have an aspect of eres mating with trull to give birth to the edur/eres combination who is later placed in kettles soul who is possibly the mother of the nerek race (that whole line of reasoning about the nerek is very convincing).
The daugther of eres and trull is raised by the nameless ones in seven cities, presumably she is the one who meets bottle, she then travels with the nerek women to lether where her oul and the heart of a forkrul assail (could the forkrul assail heart be from the dead forkrul assail gaurdian in tremelor where the chidl of trull and eres lived)
These then all combine to form kettle.
When exactly the nerek race is founded I dont know though, possibly the human looking kettle (after all her body is human) goes back in time wih eres and then gives birth to the nerek race, as nereks all look human with the eres blood or magic hidden inside... and kettle is human with magic hidden inside...
So we have an aspect of eres mating with trull to give birth to the edur/eres combination who is later placed in kettles soul who is possibly the mother of the nerek race (that whole line of reasoning about the nerek is very convincing).
The daugther of eres and trull is raised by the nameless ones in seven cities, presumably she is the one who meets bottle, she then travels with the nerek women to lether where her oul and the heart of a forkrul assail (could the forkrul assail heart be from the dead forkrul assail gaurdian in tremelor where the chidl of trull and eres lived)
These then all combine to form kettle.
When exactly the nerek race is founded I dont know though, possibly the human looking kettle (after all her body is human) goes back in time wih eres and then gives birth to the nerek race, as nereks all look human with the eres blood or magic hidden inside... and kettle is human with magic hidden inside...
#19
Set'alahd Crool
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Posted 06 August 2005 - 12:21 PM
re Eres god-or-race question.
I thought the Eres who raped Trull and the Nerek goddess is one and the same. Similar to Turudal/Errant, she is the embodyment of a race yet is shaped by her worshippers' idea of that race more so than by the truth.
So she could be nothing like the race after whom she is named.
I thought the Eres who raped Trull and the Nerek goddess is one and the same. Similar to Turudal/Errant, she is the embodyment of a race yet is shaped by her worshippers' idea of that race more so than by the truth.
So she could be nothing like the race after whom she is named.
#20
krupke
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Posted 09 August 2005 - 10:36 AM
I don't think the Edur and the Eres are Forkul Assail. It seems to unlikely in MT you read that Rhulad,Trull,Fear and those 2 demons faced Forkul Assail. and they said something like it was 3 times the hight of a man..... So that means that the Eres would have to be like 5 times man hight to compromise with the Edur ''smallness"(<
and again excuse my bad english:(
and again excuse my bad english:(
