[HoosierDaddy]

Perhaps we have different perceptions of what "on the outs" means. To me, it is an indicator of a permanent parting of the ways, as opposed to an more short-termed cessation of romance.

I'm not sure who does romance worse, Jordan or Erikson. But, then again, I'm not sure Erikson is trying to do any romance.

[amphibian]

Terez, on 04 May 2010 - 09:54 PM, said:

Didn't you read TGS? She's mad at him because he violated her orders that she was not to be rescued.

The plot summaries on Wikipedia are what I work from. If it wasn't such a hugely influential series and you a contributing member of this forum, I'd have abandoned the series entirely.

Another question: why is Gawyn so dead set upon avenging honor at the cost of apparently the entire world's fate?

This post has been edited by amphibian: 04 May 2010 - 11:08 PM

[HoosierDaddy]

I've probably read 1-6 4 or more times. 7, 8, 9 two times. Crossroads and Gathering merited one read (although I'm thinking about a re-read of Gathering, before Towers comes out), while Knife merited two reads from me.

I still enjoy it, but they are no longer instant hard-cover purchases for me. Towers might be though, because I did enjoy Gathering and I love Sanderson.

[Terez]

amphibian, on 04 May 2010 - 10:54 PM, said:

Another question: why is Gawyn so dead set upon avenging honor at the cost of apparently the entire world's fate?

Because he's stupid.

[amphibian]

Terez, on 05 May 2010 - 12:35 AM, said:

amphibian, on 04 May 2010 - 10:54 PM, said:

Another question: why is Gawyn so dead set upon avenging honor at the cost of apparently the entire world's fate?

Because he's stupid.

There's no manipulation of him by a Taken or that non-Taken who can melt into shadows? Yeesh...

[Terez]

amphibian, on 05 May 2010 - 01:19 AM, said:

Terez, on 05 May 2010 - 12:35 AM, said:

amphibian, on 04 May 2010 - 10:54 PM, said:

Another question: why is Gawyn so dead set upon avenging honor at the cost of apparently the entire world's fate?

Because he's stupid.

There's no manipulation of him by a Taken or that non-Taken who can melt into shadows? Yeesh...

A wat? Are you talking about Forsaken?

If you are...well, I think that this is one of the themes that RJ has running through the books, that not all the bad guys are Darkfriends, and even good guys like Gawyn can make really, really bad choices. It's very symbolic, for Rand to get taken out by someone who is supposedly on his side, in the midst of a battle not against the Shadow, but between the two major forces of the Light (not counting the Borderlanders). Tuon and Elayne have even purged their ranks of Darkfriends, Tuon by getting Suroth (while Rand got Semirhage), and Elayne by getting Shiaine and Hanlon/Mellar and a bunch of the Black Ajah she's been chasing since book 3. It's the type of irony that classic tragedies are known for, especially the bit about Morgase not QUITE making it to Caemlyn in time to prevent Rand's death. She'll likely be very close by.

[HoosierDaddy]

The 10 Who Were Taken are from the Black Company series by Glen Cook.

If Gawyn actually kills Rand, I can't wait to see him get blown up.

[Terez]

He won't get blown up. He'll just get run through by Rand, which will of course prevent anyone from resurrecting Rand via balefire.

[HoosierDaddy]

Wait.... What?

[Terez]

If Rand doesn't kill Gawyn, then someone could balefire Gawyn, causing Rand to come back to life on the spot. So, they will kill each other simultaneously (like Arthur and Mordred at Camlann).

[amphibian]

Terez, on 05 May 2010 - 03:29 AM, said:

If Rand doesn't kill Gawyn, then someone could balefire Gawyn, causing Rand to come back to life on the spot. So, they will kill each other simultaneously (like Arthur and Mordred at Camlann).

Why doesn't Rand just tell someone to balefire Gawyn real good after a little while, so that he's dead for enough time for everyone to forget, and then BAM! he's right there and saves the world.

This post has been edited by amphibian: 05 May 2010 - 03:48 AM

[Terez]

1. Because he won't expect the battle at all. Will be a spur-of-the-moment thing.

2. Because he won't believe that Gawyn can kill him until it's too late. He won't know Gawyn is wearing the medallion.

[amphibian]

Terez, on 05 May 2010 - 03:47 AM, said:

1. Because he won't expect the battle at all. Will be a spur-of-the-moment thing.

2. Because he won't believe that Gawyn can kill him until it's too late. He won't know Gawyn is wearing the medallion.

So is anyone who knows balefire smart enough to do this after a while? Morgase?

[Terez]

They won't have a chance. Once Gawyn is dead, the chance to balefire him is gone. Also, Morgase won't be there, remember? And she can't channel, really...she can barely manage the simplest weaves. Balefire requires some strength, and she doesn't have it, nor does she know the weave (few do).

[Terez]

I thought of some more nifty parallels:

When Rand got his never-healing 'mortal' wounds from two of the more obvious Mordred parallels, he also had a duel with a blademaster immediately preceding the wounding. At Falme, he dueled with High Lord Turak, a Seanchan blademaster (and won), and then fought Ishamael (Moridin, also Moerad during Hawkwing's time), getting the first never-healing wound. When he visited the Cairhienin rebel camp, he dueled with Toram Riatin, also a blademaster, with practice swords (and lost, due to the bubble of evil interrupting). Then Fain (who was advising Toram Riatin under the name Jeraal Mordeth) took advantage of the confusion to wound him right on top of the other one.

With Gawyn, Mordred and the blademaster will be one and the same, and of course, the irony is that Gawyn has no special powers.

Also, Galad avenged Morgase by dueling with a blademaster (Eamon Valda). Gawyn will also 'avenge' Morgase by dueling a blademaster (Rand).

The only other blademaster duels in the series:

Rand vs. Lan (just sparring)
Gawyn vs. Hammar (off screen) at the Tower
Lan vs. Toram Riatin in Far Madding (mostly off screen)
Rand vs. Ryne in New Spring (mostly off screen)
Gawyn vs. Sleete (just sparring)


Rand vs. Toram Riatin might be seen as a spar, but it wasn't really, despite the practice swords.

[globish rip]

Also, not sure what you're talking about with non-crucial highlights. Maybe you missed the point of some highlights.

yeah there was a bunch of stuff in there that seemed superfluous to the main thrust of your argument specifically fleshing out some of the extended arthurian parallels, the stuff about demandred, a lot of the background to egwene and gawyn's relationship maybe a few other bits and pieces. some of it feels like a preemptive defense & really i dont know the background to these sort of debates - what the known knowns are - but its a little sloppily presented. the why gets buried by the how & the how is the weakest (or least the must assumption filled) part

im still p fascinated with your almost philological interest in the books but what do you think of this as a literary choice? in light of the "does wot subvert cliche? and does it do so successfully?" stuff in that other thread i think its really interesting. mythic parallels aside its a weirdly tragic (as opposed to epic) choice for the series but the stuff you write about "destiny" is imo the crux of the series. it feels important that in contrast to most of the other dreams/fortellings/readings we're given so many of gawyn's are open-ended, uncertain. the idea that rand's death comes as an act of free will rather than as the logical outcome of the battle btw good/evil light/dark is rad to think about

[Terez]

Yeah, the theory was sort of thrown together in a hurry because I was impatient to start discussing it (I posted it like 2 days after I came up with the idea). It's a difficult theory to organize properly, though, as it covers so much ground, and pretty much all of the evidence is deeply buried (and therefore not the type of evidence to hit people over the head with). I'm going to start a theory blog though, and I'll be developing the theory on the blog. This was just a rush job so that I could get the idea out there and start making people crazy with it. It made me crazy when I realized that everything was going to go down completely differently than I imagined, and I just wanted to share.

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

Rand will not die. I promise.

Well, something is going to go down that will allow the prophecy to technically be true, but mark my words, at the end Rand will not be dead.

[Terez]

Like I keep telling you....he is going to die. He will come back from the dead, so you're half-right, but he is definitely going to die first.

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

Terez, on 05 May 2010 - 08:50 AM, said:

Like I keep telling you....he is going to die. He will come back from the dead, so you're half-right, but he is definitely going to die first.

Ok, I can believe that. Like I said, the prophecy won't be ignored, but in the end he will be alive. That's all I'm saying.