[Terez]

Phib was bitching because my last little breadcrumb trail didn't have major plot implications. For the record, I never tried to pretend it did....but just because, here's another one, with added plot implications:

Gawyn will kill Rand

That's the Theoryland homepage. My theory is only on it because it's the most recent one, but it will probably be up for a while.

[Tsundoku]

You should run a Uni course on this stuff. I mean, if you can do a major in Klingon ...

Although the depth of the analysis reminds me somewhat uncomfortably of the "see anything if you look hard enough" obsessiveness of those Bible Code blokes.

Still, can't fault the scholarship. If it turns out you were anywhere near right, it's pretty impressive.

[amphibian]

I read the whole thing - which was about a third too long. You have a weird habit of highlighting the non-crucial elements in the passages (which are often overly long as well, and missing page references), as well as the crucial ones. It makes me discount your highlights. Your point about Elaine being a Trakand instead of a Damodred is kind of odd, because if her mother married into Damodred, Elayne may not have existed. Or have been male.

I also got a general sense that the idea on the whole is built upon a layer of theories and meta-discussion that are referred to, but not linked to (which would really help comprehension and build your case better). Saying stuff like "we know that Rand will die" bugs me. For one thing, it seems to be a theory at this point - not a totally reliable brick to build a foundation upon. There are still a couple more books left to go at the very least, and until they come out, "Rand will die" is a theory.

Despite all the weirdness in the presentation of the theory, it still looks consistent. The pieces as you pull them out seem to point out that Gawyn will at least make the attempt on Rand's life. I do question the wisdom of a minor player like Gawyn deciding to try and kill someone who is apparently the only hope against the Seanchan and the real bad guys. Wouldn't it make more sense to gank Rand after the bad guys are defeated?

The theory is strange to me in that either the theory is wrong, Jordan stuck to the classic "heroic farmboy who saves the world" plot and Rand survives all of this, OR you've figured out that Jordan decided to have the main character of the books killed and be absent from Tarmon Gai'don. The latter is a strange thing to do and is a decision I would scrutinize closely for an author going completely off the rails in a bad way (like King incorporating his own brush with death into the Dark Tower books). You aren't worried about this?

This post has been edited by amphibian: 03 May 2010 - 08:45 PM

[Terez]

amphibian, on 03 May 2010 - 02:42 PM, said:

I read the whole thing - which was about a third too long. You have a weird habit of highlighting the non-crucial elements in the passages (which are often overly long as well, and missing page references), as well as the crucial ones. It makes me discount your highlights. Your point about Elaine being a Trakand instead of a Damodred is kind of odd, because if her mother married into Damodred, Elayne may not have existed. Or have been male.

Not sure what you're trying to say here. I never suggested that Morgase should have married into Damodred; just that Elayne and Gawyn can just as easily be seen as Damodreds. Also, not sure what you're talking about with non-crucial highlights. Maybe you missed the point of some highlights.

phib said:

I also got a general sense that the idea on the whole is built upon a layer of theories and meta-discussion that are referred to, but not linked to (which would really help comprehension and build your case better). Saying stuff like "we know that Rand will die" bugs me. For one thing, it seems to be a theory at this point - not a totally reliable brick to build a foundation upon. There are still a couple more books left to go at the very least, and until they come out, "Rand will die" is a theory.

We know from three separate prophecies that he will die, so no, it's not really a theory. There are some in the fandom who believe that Rand will somehow get away with simply faking his death, but most understand that he will die.

phib said:

Despite all the weirdness in the presentation of the theory, it still looks consistent. The pieces as you pull them out seem to point out that Gawyn will at least make the attempt on Rand's life. I do question the wisdom of a minor player like Gawyn deciding to try and kill someone who is apparently the only hope against the Seanchan and the real bad guys. Wouldn't it make more sense to gank Rand after the bad guys are defeated?

Perhaps, but perhaps not. He might not want to do it in front of his sister, since she loves Rand. He might simply do it during the battle because things are confused and it's his best chance. He might do it then simply because once he's got the medallion, he might not have the patience to wait any longer.

phib said:

The theory is strange to me in that either the theory is wrong, Jordan stuck to the classic "heroic farmboy who saves the world" plot and Rand survives all of this, OR you've figured out that Jordan decided to have the main character of the books killed and be absent from Tarmon Gai'don. The latter is a strange thing to do and is a decision I would scrutinize closely for an author going completely off the rails in a bad way (like King incorporating his own brush with death into the Dark Tower books). You aren't worried about this?

The Aelfinn said 'to live, you must die'. That highly suggests that he has to die in order to survive the Last Battle. As to why he has to die...I'm guessing it mostly has to do with Rand's link with Moridin. He's losing control over his mind and body, and it's getting worse. So, Gawyn kills him, severing the link with Moridin, and then Nynaeve rips him out of Tel'aran'rhiod so that Rand can sneak up on Shayol Ghul (probably with the knife ter'angreal that Aviendha discovered in Knife of Dreams) and do what needs to be done. 'His blood on the rocks' might refer to Luc.

Another important element is that everyone believe that Rand is dead. He will be dead, of course, but they won't know that he's going to be resurrected. Hence the title of the last book - "A Memory of Light" - like, 'hey guys, you remember when we had a chance?' Good stuff.

This post has been edited by Terez: 03 May 2010 - 10:04 PM

[amphibian]

Terez, on 03 May 2010 - 10:03 PM, said:

Not sure what you're trying to say here. I never suggested that Morgase should have married into Damodred; just that Elayne and Gawyn can just as easily be seen as Damodreds.

How can they be seen as Damodreds, if their mother married into the Trakand family and then produced them? They came after the "momentous" decision to choose one house over the other. That part seems like a linguistic stretch to get another "Mordred" link - which isn't really needed in the first place.

Quote

We know from three separate prophecies that he will die, so no, it's not really a theory. There are some in the fandom who believe that Rand will somehow get away with simply faking his death, but most understand that he will die.

Has every prophecy in the book come true? I thought the point of Lews Therin was that he followed the prophecies and still couldn't drive things to a resolution. Doesn't Rand have to go off the preordained script to solve things permanently? Forgive me for not knowing the books so well, it's been a while since I gave up on the series.

[Terez]

amphibian, on 03 May 2010 - 10:19 PM, said:

Terez, on 03 May 2010 - 10:03 PM, said:

Not sure what you're trying to say here. I never suggested that Morgase should have married into Damodred; just that Elayne and Gawyn can just as easily be seen as Damodreds.

How can they be seen as Damodreds, if their mother married into the Trakand family and then produced them? They came after the "momentous" decision to choose one house over the other. That part seems like a linguistic stretch to get another "Mordred" link - which isn't really needed in the first place.

Their mother married Taringail Damodred. A Damodred is their father. It's not a linguistic stretch at all, considering how unconventional it is even in the Randland world to take the name of the mother.

Quote

Quote

We know from three separate prophecies that he will die, so no, it's not really a theory. There are some in the fandom who believe that Rand will somehow get away with simply faking his death, but most understand that he will die.

Has every prophecy in the book come true? I thought the point of Lews Therin was that he followed the prophecies and still couldn't drive things to a resolution. Doesn't Rand have to go off the preordained script to solve things permanently? Forgive me for not knowing the books so well, it's been a while since I gave up on the series.

There weren't any prophecies in Lews Therin's time, so far as we know. Not all of the prophecies have come true because the story isn't finished yet, but for example, we know that the Aelfinn give true answers, and they said that Rand will die.

[Terez]

Oh, and something that I added in the comments of the theory I posted on Theoryland (I was impatient to start discussing the idea, so I threw it together in a few days' time):

[quote name='RJ']TITLE - The Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 21 - Into the Heart

Into the heart he thrusts his sword,
into the heart, to hold their hearts.
Who draws it out shall follow after,
What hand can grasp that fearful blade?[/quote]
Rand tried to force this prophecy to come true. Or at least, the prophecy inspired him to do what he did with Callandor, thrusting it into the floor of the Heart of the Stone to 'hold their hearts' - in other words, to remind them that just because he was gone didn't mean he couldn't come back. He sent Narishma to get it in The Path of Daggers for the battle against the Seanchan (heh) in Altara, so ever since, the fandom has been obsessed with Narishma and how he's going to 'follow after'.

It has always bothered me that Rand felt like he could force a prophecy, and I've figured he was pretty likely to be wrong about what it meant.

In The Gathering Storm, we learned that Rand's new sword is Justice, the sword of Artur Hawkwing. Rand saw the Tel'aran'rhiod-crafted version of the sword at Falme, but the scholars who gave the sword to him found it 'under a stature, in water, not near Falme'. This perfectly matches the description of the Hawkwing stedding where Perrin, Egwene, and Elyas hid from the ravens in The Eye of the World. Hawkwing's capital was to be built there, in a place where Aes Sedai can't channel, but he died the day the statue was finished, and eventually the statue was torn down, and the pieces of it left to rot. There is a small pool of clear water near the head of the statue, where Perrin and Egwene were when the Whitecloaks found them (with Bela - she is at a lot of important events).

[quote name='RJ']TITLE - The Eye of the World
CHAPTER: 30 - Children of Shadow

At the base of the hill he studied the massive, flat rock outlined against the sky, jutting out the slope almost at the crest. There was an odd familiarity to the way the top of the huge slab seemed to form irregular steps, three up and one down. He climbed the short distance and felt across the stone, walking along it. Despite the weathering of centuries he could still feel four joined columns. He glanced up at the step-like top of the stone, towering over his head like a huge lean-to. Fingers. We'll shelter in Artur Hawkwing's hand. Maybe some of his justice is left here.[/quote]

Anyway, Egwene had a dream about a Seanchan woman with a sword:

[quote name='RJ]TITLE - Crossroads of Twilight
CHAPTER: 20 - In the Night

She was struggling up a narrow, rocky path along the face of a towering cliff. Clouds surrounded her, hiding the ground below and the crest above, yet she knew that both were very far away. She had to place her feet very carefully. The path was a cracked ledge barely wide enough for her to stand on with one shoulder pressed against the cliff, a ledge littered with stones as large as her fist that could turn under a misplaced step and send her hurtling over the edge. It almost seemed this was like the dreams of pushing millstones and pulling carts, yet she knew it was a true dream.

Abruptly, the ledge dropped away from under her with the crack of crumbling stone, and she caught frantically at the cliff, fingers scrabbling to find a hold. Her fingertips slid into a tiny crevice, and her fall stopped with a jolt that wrenched her arms. Feet dangling into the clouds, she listened to the falling stone crash against the cliff until the sound faded to nothing without the stone ever hitting the ground. Dimly, she could see the broken ledge to her left. Ten feet away, it might as well have been a mile off for all the chance she had of reaching it. In the other direction, the mists hid whatever remained of the path, but she thought it had to be farther away still. There was no strength in her arms. She could not pull herself up, only hang there by her fingertips until she fell. The edge of the crevice seemed as sharp as a knife under her fingers.

Suddenly a woman appeared, clambering down the sheer side of the cliff out of the clouds, making her way as deftly as if she were walking down stairs. There was a sword strapped to her back. Her face wavered, never settling clearly, but the sword seemed as solid as the stone. The woman reached Egwene's level and held out one hand. "We can reach the top together," she said in a familiar drawl­ing accent.

Egwene pushed the dream away as she would have a viper. She felt her body thrash, heard herself groan in her sleep, but for a moment she could do nothing. She had dreamed of the Seanchan before, of a Seanchan woman somehow tied to her, but this was a Seanchan who would save her. No! They had put a leash on her, made her damane. She would as soon die as be saved by a Seanchan! A very long time passed before she could address herself to calming her sleeping body. Or maybe it only seemed a long time. Not a Seanchan; never that![/quote]
We've been trying to figure out who that Seanchan woman with a sword is for some time now. A lot of people say Egeanin, and some say Tylee (the general Perrin worked with when he freed Faile from the Shaido) and of course there has been a faction for some time that wanted it to be Tuon. Only problem Tuon is that she's got no sword.

When we found out about Justice, I brought up the possibility that she would get Justice, since she represents the legacy of Hawkwing's empire and all, but it was hard to see how she would get it. But now we know. Rand's going to thrust it into Gawyn's heart. Gawyn is also killing him at the time, so Rand will no longer need his sword. And only Tuon will have the balls to take it.

In fact, 'who draws it out' specifically avoids a gender-specific pronoun. It's sort of awkward for it.

[Terez]

Sorry, not trying to spam...but I just thought of something better. I was having a hard time imagining how Tuon could get on the field to take the sword from Rand, and how she would 'follow after' when she's the Empress and she doesn't follow anyone. But what if Egeanin is the one to draw it out? She's got this whole plot development thing going on with Tuon, how she was forced into a situation where she had to betray the Empire, but really, she is like the most dedicated servant the Empire has ever had. She even still goes by Leilwin, even though she is no longer really required to do what Tuon says, because she is still a good little faithful Seanchan. She will go by Leilwin until Tuon says otherwise.

Also, Tuon was not at Falme. Egeanin was. There will also be a good number of other people around that were at Falme; Domon, Elayne, possibly Egwene, Min, Nynaeve, etc. Min and Nynaeve haven't yet recognized it, but if Egeanin brings it to their attention, they might. Possibly Mat and Moiraine, if they get back in time.

In any case, after Rand is dead, the need to make peace with the Seanchan will be even more acute. If Egeanin takes the sword to Tuon, she might have a chance of redeeming herself in Tuon's eyes. Tuon will also have at least one or two people on hand who were at Falme and can verify the identity of the sword.

[acesn8s]

It's also possible that the Seanchan woman is Alivia. Rand could ahve given her the sword because he believes she has something to do with helping him live again. It's possible that Rand kneeling before the crystal throne means that he becomes some form of da'covale and in essence, the person that was Rand Al'thor dies and this new servant of the Empress lives . . .

It will be interesting to see how this all plays out. I can't wait for November.

[Pig Iron]

The Gawyn = Mordred idea is really nice. It finally makes sense of all the Arthurian references. I remember being annoyed with all the Mordred-sounding names, but the way the three you discuss each take on the Mordred archetype is great. And the "all this has happened before" turns into a big mythos-weave (eh), which might be what Jordan intended all along.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

How would Rand killing Gawyn "Hold their hearts?" and if Rand kills Gawyn and dies in the process "Who draws it out shall follow after" sounds a lot like they will be dying as well. Unless it means they will follow Rand into Tel'aran'rhiod as per your earlier theory on his resurrection. Which would likely mean Egwene or Elayne, right?

[Terez]

WhiskeyJackDaniels, on 04 May 2010 - 09:14 PM, said:

How would Rand killing Gawyn "Hold their hearts?" and if Rand kills Gawyn and dies in the process "Who draws it out shall follow after" sounds a lot like they will be dying as well. Unless it means they will follow Rand into Tel'aran'rhiod as per your earlier theory on his resurrection. Which would likely mean Egwene or Elayne, right?

Well, if Egeanin draws it out, she'll be following after Tuon. I imagine the sword will 'hold their hearts' in some way that has to do with Tuon. Her prophecies say that she will lead the forces of the Light against the Shadow.

[Illuyankas]

So, basically:

Rand: Hey guys I'm not insane anymor-URK
Gawyn: YOU KILLED MY MOTHER!
Morgase: No he didn't.
Gawyn: ...ohhhhhhhhhh shit.
Everyone good: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF
Egwene: WE ARE NEVER HAVING SEX AGAIN
Gawyn: We haven't had non-dream sex yet anywa-
Egwene: AND THAT IS NOT LIKELY TO CHANGE EVER YOU FUCKWIT
Egeanin: Lady Tuon, I have arranged the Dragon's corpse into a kneeing position while everyone was kicking Gawyn to death, and this *shluck* is Arthur Hawkwing's sword, Justice.
Tuon: Good work, Egeanin. Go annoy Matrim while I save the world.
Asmodean: Glad I got out of this mess early on.

[Terez]

No, not really. For one, Morgase won't be there. For another, Brandon confirmed that some of the prophecies have been tampered with. We don't know how, but there's a chance that the prophecies do not require Rand to kneel to the Crystal Throne at all.

[Illuyankas]

1. That would require Rand travelling or being travelled to by Egwene and Gawyn first, before Perrin, Galad and Morgase
2. Hence why he'd have to be dead first
3. YOU ARE CONSIDERABLY OVERESTIMATING THE SERIOUSNESS OF MY POST

This post has been edited by Illuyankas: 04 May 2010 - 09:47 PM

[Terez]

Illuyankas, on 04 May 2010 - 09:47 PM, said:

1. That would require Rand travelling or being travelled to by Egwene and Gawyn first, before Perrin, Galad and Morgase

Actually, I figure that Rand will merely show up for the Battle of Caemlyn, and that Egwene won't be there. Would be classic irony for Morgase to be nearby when Gawyn kills Rand, but not close enough to prevent Rand dying.

[HoosierDaddy]

Why are Gawyn and Egwene on the outs? I thought she was still being ridiculous about him, and vice-versa.

[Terez]

Didn't you read TGS? She's mad at him because he violated her orders that she was not to be rescued.

[HoosierDaddy]

Oh. I forgot.

Did she make him her warder yet?

Edit: And, that doesn't seem like "on the outs" to me, btw.

This post has been edited by H.D.: 04 May 2010 - 09:58 PM

[Terez]

Not yet. It might not seem like 'on the outs' to you, but it's enough for Egwene to want Gawyn out of her hair for a while, and there were a lot of hints in this book that he feels like he should be in Andor.