[Illuyankas]

Remember not to post info from books past the forum you're in, please - e.g. no post HoC spoilers.

[ansible]

I'm in the camp that thinks the scene with Kalam and the siege was pretty funny.

First, I think some plot details have been ignored here. Only some of the besiegers are Malazan, others are natives; the camp is poorly run by Irriz, as evidenced by the lack of guards at the scaffolds. After Kalam infiltrates the siege, he comes up with a plan so being first up the ladder doesn't get him killed (like Captain Irriz thinks it will). He finds Sinn, who is also a double agent (for lack of a better term), and who has poisoned the camp's water supply. So already we have a plan to keep Kalam alive and another one to wipe out a bunch of the 500 warriors (which Kalam intends to prevent, out of mercy). THEN a few Ashok Regiment soldiers climb down (without being noticed, because the besiegers are idiots) to retrieve Sinn and Kalam and reveal that they can leave the fortress whenever they want.

At this point we have two decent plans that are no longer necessary. Kalam knows the morning's attack will fail, they are about to escape up the cliffside in the dark of night, and they can leave for Raraku without worrying about the siege. The demon has nothing to do with the resolution of this plot. The only reason Kalam even calls on the demon is to retrieve Captain (actually, Corporal) Irriz, which the Ashok Regiment wants in exchange for helping Kalam escape and neutralizing the poisoned water. So Kalam calls upon a demon that is more powerful than he expects. When the demon pisses on the tent (which, with two penii, is pretty hilarious), the tent catches fire - the point of this is Kalam's plan is backfiring. The fire will alert the camp that something is wrong, and so he hauls ass for the rope at the cliff and starts climbing up, hoping the demon will somehow manage to still find Irriz. At no point during this is Kalam worried about the siege still being effective; he's just trying to get up the cliff before anyone notices. Then, as he nears the top, the demon appears with Irriz and Kalam realizes that it slaughtered everyone below. I thought this was also pretty funny, as Kalam never expected that to happen nor did he probably think the demon was capable of doing it in such a manner.

The point is, the demon is not a deus ex machina. Whether or not the demon was summoned, the siege had been neutralized as far as Kalam's plans were concerned.

Also, this is the same azalan demon that

Spoiler

carries Kalam through the Whirlwind wall.

[Braden]

Most of these “issues” are addressed in later books…some much, much later. For example Sinn…the Tobby in the well etc. This scene, as so many in the books, just sets up a series of events which don’t crop up until later books and not all together but they plant the seed of the event in your head and then you read a book two books later and BAM!



…so that’s where he/she/it came from, that’s who released it/thwarted it etc.



Just because this scene appears to be contrived doesn’t mean it is. Certainly you could read it in a manner that has been described but to me it makes perfect sense based on the background and setting. Whilst I’ve found passages in the books that are hard to read, perhaps boring even for me personally, I’ve found that often than not they will come back to me as they are linked to something else that I’ll read later.

[Braden]

ansible, on 18 August 2010 - 02:03 AM, said:

I'm in the camp that thinks the scene with Kalam and the siege was pretty funny.

First, I think some plot details have been ignored here. Only some of the besiegers are Malazan, others are natives; the camp is poorly run by Irriz, as evidenced by the lack of guards at the scaffolds. After Kalam infiltrates the siege, he comes up with a plan so being first up the ladder doesn't get him killed (like Captain Irriz thinks it will). He finds Sinn, who is also a double agent (for lack of a better term), and who has poisoned the camp's water supply. So already we have a plan to keep Kalam alive and another one to wipe out a bunch of the 500 warriors (which Kalam intends to prevent, out of mercy). THEN a few Ashok Regiment soldiers climb down (without being noticed, because the besiegers are idiots) to retrieve Sinn and Kalam and reveal that they can leave the fortress whenever they want.

At this point we have two decent plans that are no longer necessary. Kalam knows the morning's attack will fail, they are about to escape up the cliffside in the dark of night, and they can leave for Raraku without worrying about the siege. The demon has nothing to do with the resolution of this plot. The only reason Kalam even calls on the demon is to retrieve Captain (actually, Corporal) Irriz, which the Ashok Regiment wants in exchange for helping Kalam escape and neutralizing the poisoned water. So Kalam calls upon a demon that is more powerful than he expects. When the demon pisses on the tent (which, with two penii, is pretty hilarious), the tent catches fire - the point of this is Kalam's plan is backfiring. The fire will alert the camp that something is wrong, and so he hauls ass for the rope at the cliff and starts climbing up, hoping the demon will somehow manage to still find Irriz. At no point during this is Kalam worried about the siege still being effective; he's just trying to get up the cliff before anyone notices. Then, as he nears the top, the demon appears with Irriz and Kalam realizes that it slaughtered everyone below. I thought this was also pretty funny, as Kalam never expected that to happen nor did he probably think the demon was capable of doing it in such a manner.

The point is, the demon is not a deus ex machina. Whether or not the demon was summoned, the siege had been neutralized as far as Kalam's plans were concerned.

Also, this is the same azalan demon that

Spoiler

carries Kalam through the Whirlwind wall.

…yeah, any plan only lasts until contact with the enemy, or a particularly nasty daemon kills everyone.

[BlackMoranthofDoom]

I was mostly disappointed with the final battle at the end, after having two epic ones in MOI I was hopping for a grand finale in this one as well. Oh well, it was still a satisfying conclusion.
WIll there be any large scale battles later on in the series (something like the Battle for Middle-Earth)? Just answer in the form of a yes or no without spoiling the events of the battle.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Definitely yes.

[Sinisdar Toste]

Hoods balls yes

[Braden]

By the Abyss my boy!

... of course there is.

[Abyss]

BlackMoranthofDoom, on 19 September 2010 - 02:15 PM, said:

...WIll there be any large scale battles later on in the series (something like the Battle for Middle-Earth)? Just answer in the form of a yes or no without spoiling the events of the battle.

You have.
No.
Idea.

What you're in for.

- Abyss, means that in a good way.

[ksh1elds555]

BlackMoranthofDoom, on 19 September 2010 - 02:15 PM, said:

I was mostly disappointed with the final battle at the end, after having two epic ones in MOI I was hopping for a grand finale in this one as well. Oh well, it was still a satisfying conclusion.
WIll there be any large scale battles later on in the series (something like the Battle for Middle-Earth)? Just answer in the form of a yes or no without spoiling the events of the battle.

I haven't seen this question posted yet in this forum and just had to ask... Does Tavore ever find out Shaik is her sister? It felt like something right out of Greek tragedy to me. I was waiting for that moment of recognition that did not happen and I felt disappointed. That was the most unsatisfying part of the book, which overall I felt WAS a great book. So many moments just jumped right off the page and are burned into my memory now. Thanks!

[HoosierDaddy]

That is a highly debated topic in one of the later forums (Dust of Dreams I think). Some think she knows, others (including me) think she had no idea who Shaik was in reality.

[Abalieno]

In HoC it's never hinted that Tavore may know. In fact at the end Pearl and Lostara take away the body to spare Tavore the pain. I think they also tell her that Felisin is dead. If it's not retconned it stays like that because as I said there wasn't even an hint of ambivalence in that case.

[Sindriss]

Quote

As for the demon being the most deadly thing in the books so far - no. As of HoC, it's probably Raest.

I would say Rake

[Spiridon_Deannis]

Abalieno, on 03 May 2010 - 12:11 AM, said:

I've been one of the most strenuous defender of Erikson's work up to this point, on Martin's forums for example. Now I'm reading House of Chains and I think I found a part that is truly disappointing and actually matching the critics I read. I know that this book is usually the least appreciated in the series so I consider is as some kind of a test. I think the first 420 pages are even better than usual. They have more focus and Erikson executes his usual tricks with more control. The only part that I consider weaker is about Cutter and Apsalar whose relationship and characters had a not so well done and not completely believable development. The rest I think goes from good to brilliant.

Instead the part that I think was rather badly handled and conceived is about Kalam and the fortress on the cliff where a Malazan squad is under siege. The premise is wonderful and that's why the resolution is even worse. I leave a very good section where Kalam accepts his usual Bridgeburner's duty: "first in, last out". Which builds expectations. Then instead Kalam wakes up in the night and goes out to check out the situation. Absolutely no one is awake or wakes up, but he easily meets the other mage who will join his side. In the meantime some guards die of poison, writhing about, but waking no one still. Malazan soldiers that where under siege in that fortress have the freedom to come down by rope and hang about, have a happy chat with Kalam, then the other mage. After that scene Kalam goes back to his tent and out of the blue calls an hideous demon who pisses on his tent with his two penises, set it on fire, and then proceeds to kill everyone else in the camp with his six limbs and an incredible number of mysterious weapons strapped to his body. That's all, the siege is over.

Well, that was lame and, in particular, unnecessary. Why Erikson had to describe this demon pissing on Kalam tent and setting it on fire? It's an unnecessary scene that feels truly awkward and misplaced. Them walking freely about the camp, then having a chat with the "enemies" from above, all without the whole Malazan camp even stirring awake, then getting completely slaughtered by a handy demon coming out of nowhere.

This whole scene rather well summarizes some of the most typical critics. That Erikson pulls deus ex machina to solve situations (the appearance of the demon), that he does fluff like bad ass scenes that are only there to be cool (demon killing everyone off the scene) and that some other scenes are gratuitous (the pissing on the tent part).

For the first time I really don't know what Erikson intended to do there. When he uses a conventional trick or a standard fantasy trope it's always to turn it on its head and use it in some subversive or innovative or creative way. He always has a purpose with what he does, never does anything unnecessary. But this just looked to me like "standard magic item" saving the day without anything interesting about it. Even worse it kinda ruined a scene since I was really looking forward to see a tense situation as Kalam had to work quickly with his double crossing, joining the other side without being killed in the process. Nothing of that since the demon gave him a free pass, a demon coming out of nowhere and described as the most deadly thing to appear in the series up to this point. Matching those who compare Erikson with Dragonball and the impromptu an convenient appearance of something that exceeds in power everything else.

Obviously it's not like a few pages ruin the book or everything I've read up to this point, but I was still quite disappointed because it's the first time that I think the critics I usually read are rather deserved, even if limited to an handful of pages. And it's also the first time that I clearly felt the "fantasy" element completely disrupt the narrative, since the lack of super powers or super beings appearing would have easily led to a much more interesting scene than the gratuitous one Erikson put in its place.

The appearance of magic and omnipotent demon felt like an intrusion, and I also can't connect with Apsalar and Cutter characters that are just too disconnected and other-wordly to be sympathetic. Along with the silly plot of Minala and the 1300 kids and the appearance of more badass characters like Pearl. I see a pattern developing and me finding the "supernatural" elements as weak points in a book that would be at the same level of quality if not superior to the previous three.

Hopefully these moments stay rare, or reveal something more interesting that I missed (or are used more cleverly than just feeding the adolescent left in me).

When are you embarassing little piece of whiner simply gonna DO what everybody else has done here - namely DO the homework and simply READ the entire cycle, which in your case would mean - STOP hiding behind the first four volumes and catch up reading with like...I dunno...Midnight Tides, for starters !!???
Darn, you really ARE a lazy, bumming, attention-mongering little literary sponge, arent´t you...???

To the rest of the community - my apologies about this, but this gentleman is starting to chafe...!

This post has been edited by Spiridon_Deannis: 08 October 2010 - 02:02 AM

[Osserc - Lord of the Sky]

Personally, i wasnt dissapointed by those parts. Sure, they were just a touch brief, but they didn't bug me.
HoC isn't my 100% FAVORITE in the series, (that's MoI) but I love the book in total, with no small sections
ruining my opinion.