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Nightchill & Ardata Wild aspect speculation Rate Topic: -----

#1 User is offline   dawnkiller 

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Posted 25 April 2010 - 08:00 PM

One of the things I'm still trying to peg is Nightchill/Sister of Cold Night's Elder aspect. We learned, I think in MoI, that when she used her warren it appeared to be Rashan. However, since Draconus appears to embody Night it seemed weird to have redundancy, but upon looking back at some earlier passages I started to wonder if the name "Sister of Cold Nights" indicated something still associated with Night, but not the darkness itself: the moon.

The first indication comes from the sequence in GotM where Kruppe witnesses Silverfox's birth in a dream. When they first meet in his mindscape it's night, and the sky is empty. However, as soon as Tatterchill shows up the moon appears. It remains there for the duration of the ritual.

Requisite quotes, where I have added the occasional emphasis:


Quote

He shrugged and, with a bow to the two companions, he headed south. After a few minutes he glanced back, but the fire was nowhere in sight. He was alone in the chill night. {That was an Abyss-worthy pun there.}
A full moon appeared on the eastern horizon, bathing the land in silver light. Ahead, the tundra rolled on as far as Kruppe could see, flat and featureless. Then he squinted. Something had just appeared, still distant, walking with seeming great difficulty. He watched it fall once, then climb back to its feet. Despite the luminescence, the figure looked black.
(GotM p.355)

The Rhivi woman rocked the desiccated body in rhythmic motion, chanting softly. Water stained the Rhivi's thighs.
'Aye,' Kruppe whispered. 'She prepares to give birth in truth.'
Abruptly, the Rhivi tossed away the body. It crumpled in a lifeless heap.
The moon now hung immediately overhead, so bright that Kruppe could not look at it directly.
. . .
'K'rul, what of the first child within the Rhivi?'
'There was none, Kruppe. The Rhivi woman was prepared in a manner unknown to any man. Including myself. This sorcery belongs to the Moon, Kruppe.'
They continued watching the labours of birth. To Kruppe it seemed they waited more hours in the darkness than any normal night could hold. The Moon remained overhead, as if it found its position to its liking - or, he reconsidered, as if it stood guard over them.
(GotM p.358)



(It being about 5 years since my last GotM re-read, I'm proud I remembered these.)

This could be the influence of Ardata -- we know that she's got deep association with the moon due to the events in TBH. Again, quotes:


Quote

The strands of web covered the Trell now. Thousands, tens, hundreds of thousands-the spiders were wrapping around Mappo Runt's entire body.
'And now,' Mogora said, 'time for the moon.'
The blackness overhead vanished in sudden bloom of silver, incandescent light. Squealing, Iskaral Pust fell onto his back, so alarming was the transformation, and he found himself staring straight up at a massive, full moon, hanging so low it seemed within reach. (TBH p.363)

'Are you an Elder Goddess? I believe I know you . . . This vast web, the unseen pattern amidst seeming chaos. Shall I name you?'
'Best you did not. I have since learned the art of hiding.' (TBH p.399)



Seems a no-brainer. However, we later have the following passage from Hanavat in DoD:


Quote

She was the wandering moon of her people's legends, in the ages before her sister moon's betrayal, when love was still pure and Night lay in the arms of Darkness ... The moon had ceased to wander. Snared in the webs of deceit, it could only slide round and round the world it loved--never to touch, doomed to tug at its lover's tears, that and nothing more. Until, in some distant future, love died and with it all the pale fires of its wonder, and at last Night found her lover and in turn Darkness swallowed her whole. And that was the end of all existence. . . . the moon had been struck a mortal blow. She was dying. And still the web would not release her, whilst, ever cool, ever faint, her sister moon watched on. Had she murdered her rival? Was she pleased to witness her sister's death throes? (DoD p.673)


The existence of two moons may not be a new detail, but it's the first time I've noticed it. Looks like the nearest one has been destroyed by the JGs, while the second fainter one in a more distant orbit. The latter seems to fit with Ardata's MO, given her inscrutability is one of her defining features. In addition, the nearest moon has been slowly radiating pieces while Nightchill's soul is, as they said, "scattered to the winds". Either way, I can't think we got a passage that elaborate for no reason.

Interesting here is the intimation that the primary moon is still caught up in the "web," and betrayal by the sister moon is mentioned. In the prologue to MoI Nightchill states that her downfall would be by betrayal and nothing else. Originally this appeared to begin and end with Tayschrenn, but now I'm thinking Ardataphobia had a hand in it as well. I get the sense she's got at least as many hooks out as Shadowthrone (but better at hiding it, which is a lot easier when you rarely show up in POV chapters).

That said, I have no clue what the rest of the Barghest myth means. Night here appears as female, and Darkness as her lover, which I guess is possible of either Draconus (since being related never stopped any of the other gods) or Mommy D in her Awesome Phase. I doubt the Draconus connection, though -- by the time of the MoI prologue he and Nightchill hadn't seen each other in millenia.

Thoughts?
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#2 User is offline   Adjutant Stormy~ 

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Posted 26 April 2010 - 07:19 AM

Very well researched. I'd go fishing for quotes myself, but my cousin left my GOTM out in the rain.

Nightchill is an Elder that I feel would be well suited for later exposition. Or she could be relegated to GotMism.
<!--quoteo(post=462161:date=Nov 1 2008, 06:13 PM:name=Aptorian)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Aptorian @ Nov 1 2008, 06:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=462161"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->God damn. Mighty drunk. Must ... what is the english movement movement movement for drunk... with out you seemimg drunk?

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#3 User is offline   dawnkiller 

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Posted 26 April 2010 - 02:15 PM

View PostAdjutant Stormy, on 26 April 2010 - 07:19 AM, said:

Nightchill is an Elder that I feel would be well suited for later exposition. Or she could be relegated to GotMism.


Since she's been "seen" at least once in flashback, and she's still a part of Silverfox, so I'm guessing she'll be elaborated on some point. May be in an ICE book, though . . .

(Randomly, it's a little weird if there are moon and sea deities but not sun -- so who would we have there, Osserc? I'd guess FL but, like Mommy D, he's not really native . . .)
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#4 User is offline   Blend 

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Posted 26 April 2010 - 04:04 PM

In MOI, if I remember correctly, it was stated that though Tattersail's personality seemed to be dominant within Silverfox, there was still evidence that Nightchill was at least partly running the show, maybe even that she and Tattersail agree over what needs to be done. So I don't think Nightchill is out of the game.

Take into account the few sightings of the Silver Fox whenever there were scenes with T'Lan Imass and I am thinking that Silverfox is going to show up in TCG, which drags Nightchill into the massive Elder Gods convergence that's about to happen.

That being said, I don't know that I believe that there will be some betrayal between Nightchill and Ardata. I think that may be something that has already happened. Either that, or it was, in fact, betrayal by Tayschrenn... However, both Ardata and Nightchill will be present in what's about to happen, at least in some sense - Ardata's got Mappo, who is obviously tied to her now, on his way there, and Nightchill's inside Silverfox who I think has been snooping around.

Random aside - I think Silverfox and Olar Ethil are heading for a face-off. Silverfox is NOT happy with what OE is doing to the Imass on Letheras, I imagine.
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#5 User is offline   dawnkiller 

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Posted 26 April 2010 - 04:25 PM

View PostBlend, on 26 April 2010 - 04:04 PM, said:

That being said, I don't know that I believe that there will be some betrayal between Nightchill and Ardata. I think that may be something that has already happened. Either that, or it was, in fact, betrayal by Tayschrenn...


Yeah, I don't get the sense Ardata's still gunning for Nightchill or anything like that. She's not even mentioned her, whereas gods with grudges tend to break out in rants if someone so much as sneezes. I think the only god she's been on record as saying irritates her is Shadowthrone, and that appears to be because he's basically playing her game, but better. Hell, even if Ardata did contribute to the double-cross in some way, it may have been to maneuver Nightchill into the position Silverfox now occupies rather than an outright murder attempt. And while Ardata no doubt has ulterior motives, they don't seem destructive/chaotic -- she's described in terms as something like "hidden order in the chaos" or something, so I think she's benevolent. Basically. (Then again, that's Olar Ethil's excuse for being a bromance-slaying bitch.)

Besides, while Kallor's curse definitely came to pass, we know that 2 of 3 of the cursed have already overcome it -- K'rul's got a sanctified space again, Draconus is free, etc. Silvertatterchill could be good to go . . . although I get the sense something in her camp's going to go off the rails somehow, but then, this is an SE series we're talking about.
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#6 User is offline   Bauchelain the Evil 

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Posted 26 April 2010 - 04:38 PM

Kallor's curse on Nightchill has also already passed.

"Inhuman hands shall tear your body to pieces on a battlefield but your soul won't know rest"

That's clearly what happened. The demons killed Nightchill but her soul is in Silverfox.

This post has been edited by Bauchelain the Evil: 26 April 2010 - 04:38 PM

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#7 User is offline   Abyss 

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 07:45 PM

Elder Gods' aspects tend to be a bit abstract. Sech is luck but in some way so is the Errant, who used to be balance but it also seems that Kila is balance but in a destructive sense and then we have Sister and Draconus who both seem to be aspected to darkness but in different ways and so on... ...Mael, well, not easy to reconcile Bugg with whatever the Jhistal are worshipping to say nothing of the whole 'Waiting Man' thing which was practically usurping Hood...

Ardata... i'm leaning in the direction of her being aspected to 'fate' or 'destiny' or 'manipulation' or 'forces unseen' or something... her involvements have been very obscure in purpose... healing Mappo but giving Skinner a power-up... opposing Kallor but not standing with the other three EGs against him...

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#8 User is offline   dawnkiller 

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 07:57 PM

View PostAbyss, on 28 April 2010 - 07:45 PM, said:

Elder Gods' aspects tend to be a bit abstract. Sech is luck but in some way so is the Errant, who used to be balance but it also seems that Kila is balance but in a destructive sense and then we have Sister and Draconus who both seem to be aspected to darkness but in different ways and so on... ...Mael, well, not easy to reconcile Bugg with whatever the Jhistal are worshipping to say nothing of the whole 'Waiting Man' thing which was practically usurping Hood...

Ardata... i'm leaning in the direction of her being aspected to 'fate' or 'destiny' or 'manipulation' or 'forces unseen' or something... her involvements have been very obscure in purpose... healing Mappo but giving Skinner a power-up... opposing Kallor but not standing with the other three EGs against him...



I'm cool with Ardata not standing against Kallor. Not only is she mentioned as habitually keeping herself apart from the other Elders and desiring a low-profile, but all three EGs got cursed for their trouble. I'd suspect she hates being direct in her interference just as much as ST.

Sech's luck/balance seems more two-sided than the Errant's nudge (comparable to the Lord's push); while the Errant appears to be more bad luck, or at least destructive outcome, Sech talks like he represents both sides (namely, the positive or negative effect that results from a good or bad cause). It does appear redundant to have two guys basically pulling the same job, but the Errant's may be more related with some duality of his position of Master of the Holds. He imposes order, but he also destroys it (as the total implosion of the last legit king of Lether's court and Brys' accidental suicide can attest). Also, Sech actually appears to have some kind of morality going what with his whole hairshirt-esque wearing of an older form, and the Errant, not so much.

@#*$ but I can still recall absolutely no textual indication as to what Grizzin Farl might be. Even Edgewalker gets more elaboration.
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#9 User is offline   Sinisdar Toste 

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 08:06 PM

its funny, the only textual reference to grizzin farl is when cotillion speculates that he, kalam, quick ben and stormy may be standing in one of his temples in the imperial warren. the floor and walls are covered with a mural showing some extreme human sacrifice. this is where QB's "the best kind" comment about blood worship comes out too.

and grizzin farl is consequently one of the most speculated on characters in the series.

gotta love it.
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#10 User is offline   WhiskeyJackDaniels 

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 12:34 AM

View PostSinisdar Toste, on 28 April 2010 - 08:06 PM, said:

its funny, the only textual reference to grizzin farl is when cotillion speculates that he, kalam, quick ben and stormy may be standing in one of his temples in the imperial warren. the floor and walls are covered with a mural showing some extreme human sacrifice. this is where QB's "the best kind" comment about blood worship comes out too.

and grizzin farl is consequently one of the most speculated on characters in the series.

gotta love it.


Well the Errant also mentions him in the EG meeting, stating that he didn't answer the summons because he is dead, or "has lost his physical form" or something.
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#11 User is offline   Interesting 

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Posted 23 January 2011 - 12:18 AM

also in stoneiwleder somewhere they say that the imperial warren is the warren of a dead god so could be grizzin farl
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#12 User is offline   nacht 

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Posted 23 January 2011 - 12:55 AM

Kuru Qan in MT (to Brys)

Quote

There are actually at least four moons, lad, but the others are not only distant, but perpetually occluded from reflecting the sun's light. Very difficult to see, although early texts suggest that this was not always so. Reasons for their fading as yet unknown, although I suspect our world's own bulk has something to do with it. Then again, it may be that they are not farther away at all, but indeed closer, only very small, Relatively speaking.


but Nightchill being tied to the Moon makes a lot of sense.

Regarding, Skinner, Ardata was supporting him during his stay in Stratem but he betrayed her and moving to the Crippled God's side. I don't think her use of Skinner was intended to be harmful to anybody.
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#13 User is offline   nacht 

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Posted 23 January 2011 - 01:06 AM

View Postdawnkiller, on 25 April 2010 - 08:00 PM, said:


Quote

She was the wandering moon of her people's legends, in the ages before her sister moon's betrayal, when love was still pure and Night lay in the arms of Darkness ... The moon had ceased to wander. Snared in the webs of deceit, it could only slide round and round the world it loved--never to touch, doomed to tug at its lover's tears, that and nothing more. Until, in some distant future, love died and with it all the pale fires of its wonder, and at last Night found her lover and in turn Darkness swallowed her whole. And that was the end of all existence. . . . the moon had been struck a mortal blow. She was dying. And still the web would not release her, whilst, ever cool, ever faint, her sister moon watched on. Had she murdered her rival? Was she pleased to witness her sister's death throes? (DoD p.673)





This description seems similar to a comet that somehow got snared in.

"Until, in some distant future, love died and with it all the pale fires of its wonder, and at last Night found her lover and in turn Darkness swallowed her whole. And that was the end of all existence"

Interesting, does this quote imply that "Night" and Darkness are different, that they are lovers and at the end of the universe "Darkness and Night" will unite.

Maybe one of the moons never reflects light. The new moon came in and got collared. starts reflecting light and at some point in the future it is expected that this moon will die and the non-reflecting moon would symbolically join with darkness.

As usual, confused.
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#14 User is offline   MTS 

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Posted 23 January 2011 - 01:23 AM

The Imperial Warren is the product of Kallor's destruction of Jacurucku, made into a warren by K'rul, so in a sense it is the 'abandoned house of a lost god', K'rul being somewhat lost up to this point in time.

As for Skinner, he wasn't in Stratem before RotCG, he was in Jacurucku, as evidenced by the Jacurucku mages talking about some of the Avowed enforcing the will of Ardata. IIRC it was Shimmer and co. who ruled a part of Stratem for a while. Blues is mentioned specifically, although I can't quite remember where.

I think it's quite an assumption to assume that Skinner betrayed her. She is the Goddess of one kingdom, ruling it as a Queen, and she supports Skinner, who was angling for the Malazan throne along with Cowl. She's mentioned to be a mystery even to the Elder Gods by Errastas, so I'm not entirely sure that Skinner's assumption of the King in Chains title was necessarily against the will of Ardata. The adherents of the House of Chains are not so much bound by the CG as are people in other Houses. They aren't at his every beck and call, unlike the servants of, say, Hood. I think it's more likely Ardata and Skinner are using the power gained by being the King in Chains for their own benefit, just like everyone else.
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#15 User is offline   ShadowRaven 

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Posted 23 January 2011 - 01:07 PM

There are some very interesting theories in this thread! Anyways, my two cents about the subject:

Recently finished a reread of MoI and at some point QB or Paran reflects upon the differences of KG and Rashan (I believe it is when QB transports them to the top of Coral's keep using KG). I can't remember the exact passage but it says something like KG being absolute pitch black (where no light has ever even existed), and Rashan being more like the lighter darkness of the night. Based on this it also makes perfect sense for Nightchill's warren to be Rashan. However, since she is an elder, I would assume her original aspect would then be closer to Emurlahn, not KG.

And of you take theory further, into the crazy theories section, then it could also make sense if the moons were actually larger Emurlahn fragments (thus their fading away).


P.S. I just had a thought, since darkness and light are both substances on Wu in a sense, what if shadow is also a "substance", i.e. the moons we don't see haven't actually stopped reflecting the sun's light, but rather started emanating the substance of shadow? :p
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Posted 23 January 2011 - 05:21 PM

View PostShadowRaven, on 23 January 2011 - 01:07 PM, said:

There are some very interesting theories in this thread! Anyways, my two cents about the subject:

Recently finished a reread of MoI and at some point QB or Paran reflects upon the differences of KG and Rashan (I believe it is when QB transports them to the top of Coral's keep using KG). I can't remember the exact passage but it says something like KG being absolute pitch black (where no light has ever even existed), and Rashan being more like the lighter darkness of the night. Based on this it also makes perfect sense for Nightchill's warren to be Rashan. However, since she is an elder, I would assume her original aspect would then be closer to Emurlahn, not KG.

And of you take theory further, into the crazy theories section, then it could also make sense if the moons were actually larger Emurlahn fragments (thus their fading away).


P.S. I just had a thought, since darkness and light are both substances on Wu in a sense, what if shadow is also a "substance", i.e. the moons we don't see haven't actually stopped reflecting the sun's light, but rather started emanating the substance of shadow? :p
Interesting to think where the 'Shadow Moon' out of NoK might fit in here. Any theories?
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#17 User is offline   nacht 

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Posted 23 January 2011 - 10:34 PM

View PostShadowRaven, on 23 January 2011 - 01:07 PM, said:

There are some very interesting theories in this thread! Anyways, my two cents about the subject:

Recently finished a reread of MoI and at some point QB or Paran reflects upon the differences of KG and Rashan (I believe it is when QB transports them to the top of Coral's keep using KG). I can't remember the exact passage but it says something like KG being absolute pitch black (where no light has ever even existed), and Rashan being more like the lighter darkness of the night. Based on this it also makes perfect sense for Nightchill's warren to be Rashan. However, since she is an elder, I would assume her original aspect would then be closer to Emurlahn, not KG.

And of you take theory further, into the crazy theories section, then it could also make sense if the moons were actually larger Emurlahn fragments (thus their fading away).


P.S. I just had a thought, since darkness and light are both substances on Wu in a sense, what if shadow is also a "substance", i.e. the moons we don't see haven't actually stopped reflecting the sun's light, but rather started emanating the substance of shadow? :p



Rashan and Meanas are almost always clubbed together, so this make sense.

I often think of Kurald Galain as "space". and the creation as some kind of Big Bang which produced a star
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#18 User is offline   Blueiron 

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 11:26 PM

On the subject of the moon and shadow: in DG, when Kalam is trying to get through the whirlwind (which was a fragment of shadow) he comments something to the effect night being just a giant shadow: the planet's own shadow. Night therefore = Shadow?
Are either Ardata or Nightchill aspected to shadow? Ardata seems cinnniving enough at any rate. EDIT: conniving, not cinniving, idiot :p

This post has been edited by Blueiron: 25 January 2011 - 11:27 PM

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#19 User is offline   ShadowRaven 

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Posted 26 January 2011 - 12:16 AM

View PostD, on 23 January 2011 - 05:21 PM, said:

View PostShadowRaven, on 23 January 2011 - 01:07 PM, said:

There are some very interesting theories in this thread! Anyways, my two cents about the subject:

Recently finished a reread of MoI and at some point QB or Paran reflects upon the differences of KG and Rashan (I believe it is when QB transports them to the top of Coral's keep using KG). I can't remember the exact passage but it says something like KG being absolute pitch black (where no light has ever even existed), and Rashan being more like the lighter darkness of the night. Based on this it also makes perfect sense for Nightchill's warren to be Rashan. However, since she is an elder, I would assume her original aspect would then be closer to Emurlahn, not KG.

And of you take theory further, into the crazy theories section, then it could also make sense if the moons were actually larger Emurlahn fragments (thus their fading away).


P.S. I just had a thought, since darkness and light are both substances on Wu in a sense, what if shadow is also a "substance", i.e. the moons we don't see haven't actually stopped reflecting the sun's light, but rather started emanating the substance of shadow? :p
Interesting to think where the 'Shadow Moon' out of NoK might fit in here. Any theories?


Well, if some of the moons actually emanate shadow, one of them drawing closer to the earth on its rotation could certainly be a rare enough event to be a cause for the Shadow Moon. And bringing an Emurlahn fragment closer to Wu could certainly boost the powers of shadow.

EDIT: And to answer Blueiron, as stated above, Nightchill's warren was Rashan. The relationship of Rashan and Meanas is very unclear but I consider Rashan to be at least partially shadow. Also, see the quote from GotM below where QB and Tattersail discuss it. Although it's hard to make any absolute conclusions, the fact that humans appear to have known about it for ages could mean that maybe Nightchill created Rashan from a fragment of Emurlahn or something like that as she chose to walk the path of mortals, and thus use a warren accessible to mortals. Also, Nightchill chose to assume a disguise, and Rashan being a warren of illusion to a degree provides some interesting considerations to think about.

Quote

"'hasn't there always been an accessible Warren of Shadow? Rashan, the Warren of Illusions?'

'Rashan is a false Warren, Sorceress. A shadow of what it claims to represent, if you'll excuse my wording. It is itself an illusion. The gods alone know where it came from, or who created it in the first place, or even why...'"

GotM, UK Trade, p.97

This post has been edited by ShadowRaven: 26 January 2011 - 12:28 AM

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