[Cartographer]

I must apologize in not quite being clear. I don't believe that Hetan deserved her fate. I do agree that she probably should have put more effort in saving her kids, but honestly, how much could she have done. It pretty much seems (from my memory) that most of the Barghast were anti-Tool and anti-Hetan as it was. During her small 'escape attempt', her only aid came from those whom she probably wouldn't have expected aid from in the first place. I think it fair to say that she was completely overwhelmed by the course her life had suddenly taken.

So, her husband is dead. She has no friends left, and she knows that the customs of her people will ultimately see the end of her life and probably her children as well. Did she deserve a much quicker death? Yes. But, come on, no one deserves to be subjected to the horrors Hetan went through.

As to the Barghast 'getting what they deserved'. Being entirely ethnocentric in this opinion, I disagree with their method of hobbling and their stubborn, war-like ways. So yeah, it was comin to em. Besides, its Erikson, it was inevitable. The general rule seems to be lots of people must die.

[Ulrik]

But I can suggest that humans are not better Slavery, mass murdering, public torturing... Same mess, another style...

[worry]

You were clear, I just wasn't sure why if the Barghast got what they deserved, and Hetan is a Barghast, why she's not included in the condemnation. Nor her children. Of course on the point that it seemed an inevitable conclusion to their cultural hangups, can't argue with that. If it weren't Draconus, it may have been somebody else soon enough. But I'm pretty sure those involved in the hobbling felt Hetan got what she deserved, got what was coming to her. As did all the enemy dead on all the battlefields the Barghast ever fought on.

[cerveza_fiesta]

Cartographer, on 02 June 2010 - 06:18 AM, said:

I must apologize in not quite being clear. I don't believe that Hetan deserved her fate. I do agree that she probably should have put more effort in saving her kids, but honestly, how much could she have done. It pretty much seems (from my memory) that most of the Barghast were anti-Tool and anti-Hetan as it was. During her small 'escape attempt', her only aid came from those whom she probably wouldn't have expected aid from in the first place. I think it fair to say that she was completely overwhelmed by the course her life had suddenly taken.

So, her husband is dead. She has no friends left, and she knows that the customs of her people will ultimately see the end of her life and probably her children as well. Did she deserve a much quicker death? Yes. But, come on, no one deserves to be subjected to the horrors Hetan went through.

As to the Barghast 'getting what they deserved'. Being entirely ethnocentric in this opinion, I disagree with their method of hobbling and their stubborn, war-like ways. So yeah, it was comin to em. Besides, its Erikson, it was inevitable. The general rule seems to be lots of people must die.

Deserving your fate on a racial scale and on a personal scale are different things. I think its easier to pass judgment on a racial scale than on a personal scale, because we can actually relate to the victim and agressor on the personal scale. In that respect, Hetan's punishment did not fit her crime, because she didn't commit a crime at all other than being "extremely bad a tribal politics" (as somebody above said). The senseless and over-the-top aggression committed against her was in my view a device by SE to make us hate the barghast as a race even more. It wasn't the only thing either...throughout the whole subplot the barghast characters (with few exceptions) are dehumanized to the point of being a power-hungry pack of wild dogs - especially evidenced in the night of murders immediately following the hobbling scene. Secondly in the fact that they'd start a fight with the Saphii, acting all big and glorious in killing a few lightly-armed traders, just to have somebody to fight. "Because we're warriors" is a fundamentally idiotic reason for starting a fight. Thirdly in the careless wastage of the local bedherin resources.

Almost to a man, the Barghast hated Tool and his rule, so when they were all deprived of their great kill by (can't remember tool's "killer's" name"), they needed something to show they were all just as big of men and just as anti-Tool as ever...so their pent-up violence was visited on his kin.

I'm beginning to see that's what stank so bad about the whole Hetan hobbling thing. It wasn't enough for everybody to just hate tool and be glad he's gone...they had to go waaaaay over the top and psychologically murder an innocent just to prove the point. Add that it was one of their own, and that she didn't do anything to specifically deserve it, and the fact that the idea of hobbling is brutal beyond all reason, and the moronic war with the Saphii, and the pointless/constant power struggles, and the wanton resource wastage, it shows (and I'd guess is supposed to show by SE) that the barghast culture is horribly flawed to the point that they are 100% parasitic to the world and their surroundings.

That's my thoughts on it anyway. Its not just that the barghast are pests, they're pests who know better and refuse to be anything but.

Ulrik, on 02 June 2010 - 06:43 AM, said:

But I can suggest that humans are not better Slavery, mass murdering, public torturing... Same mess, another style...

Yep. As a whole, I think humans, in their current cultural incarnation, are probably headed for disaster and deserve every bit of it for our ways and idiotic refusal to change

[foolio]

Quote

kind of feel I'm the only person who read the part where Tool and Hetan tried to abolish hobbling but the rest of the Barghast said no because they're bastards.

I remembered that part more of tool wanting to abolish it, Heten advising against it, and tool basically being a softy about it. Need to do a reread though so I could definately be wrong.

Quote

"My husband is dead, partly because I didn't take the bait he gave me so it's partly my fault, which makes it all my fault, and I'm so griefstricken that I have no time for all this political bullshit" she deserves - genuinely DESERVES - to be raped into insanity? Are you seriously saying that?

I am not saying that. Nobody deserves that, well except Anne Coulter...and I certainly dont think Hetan deserved all of this like a murderer in todays society deserves punishment. But I also dont think she is an innocent bystander either. As far as political bullshit after tools death, it was entirely too late for it then. Instead of isolating themselves from the bloodthirsty and powerhungry savages around them they should have seen this coming. Should have started eliminating rivals long ago, or fled. Their lame intuition and leadership abilities certainly contributed to their horrible demise.

as Loric says

Quote

thats my biggest problem with Tool's rule of the barghast. His fist was not the iron fist of change but the soft hand of friendship and that got the barghast what it got them.

This post has been edited by foolio: 02 June 2010 - 05:01 PM

[worry]

I'm not sure SE's purpose was to dehumanize the Barghast before killing them off, or even to suggest they deserved it. It's a cautionary tale, sure, about what brutality leads to. And it may be meant to evoke disgust. But I don't think it's meant to evoke scorn or even exaltation at their ultimate failure. They're all still only "human" after all. What would Itkovian say to them? What would he do for them?

[Soulessdreamer]

worrywort, on 02 June 2010 - 12:17 AM, said:

Nah, I recall that fairly distinctly.

@SoullessDreamer - Women with postpartum depression aren't routinely arrested and punished. I'm not sure what you're saying there. What position of power was she in? Widow to the former, mostly hated, pacifist, non-Barghast, decidedly interim chief? And I don't think I can even let "silence is consent" sit inside my brain long enough to counter it, in fear for my health.

She was the daughter of the chief and then married to the cheif. One of the reasons the women hated her so much and wanted to bring her down was the amount of power she weilded.

If no one speaks out against something then the only logical assumption is that they are for it. The only way for evil to triumpth is for good people to do nothing.

TTFN

[Defiance]

I wasn't too disturbed by the hobbling, only because I didn't have any real emotional attachment to Hetan as a character. It was a horrible thing, though.

Overall, I enjoyed the Barghast plotline. Some parts seemed to drag on a little, but any misgivings I had about it were forgotten upon its conclusion. Draconus is the fucking man.

[Soulessdreamer]

Illuyankas, on 02 June 2010 - 12:06 AM, said:

Your most cherished loved one dies. Suddenly while you're still grieving your friends and neighbours burst in and cut off your feet and rape you repeatedly for days. You're saying that because she didn't think "My husband is dead, better run and get chased down and watch my kids get murdered or raped in front of me before the same happens to me BUT IT'S OK BECAUSE I RESISTED" but instead went "My husband is dead, partly because I didn't take the bait he gave me so it's partly my fault, which makes it all my fault, and I'm so griefstricken that I have no time for all this political bullshit" she deserves - genuinely DESERVES - to be raped into insanity? Are you seriously saying that?

And opposed to the pointless stupid death she would have suffered if she'd done ANYTHING AT ALL?

Firstly there was a period of several days between her knowing of Tools death and the info getting back to camp.

Secondly it woundn't be ok 'because she resisted' but she wouldn't bare any of the responsiblity for what happened.

Thridly she did not deserve to be raped into insanity; but IMO she is responsible for the consequences of her actions and choices, as are we all.

She had choice, forwarning, knowlege, power and duty and she did nothing.

Hetan = Fail

TTFN

[worry]

I know her status, and it doesn't translate to power. Obviously. Since she was hobbled and raped by those she had "power" over. And that assumption is not a logical conclusion, let alone the only one. It's a non sequitur if/then fallacy. Which doesn't mean I don't like the quote you ended with, it's a nice sentiment. But evil can certainly triumph in the face of opposition, even good opposition.. There's another version that goes: "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." And I think that's a bit closer to the truth, as it never guarantees the triumph of good.

Like I said, I understand how the Barghast could be deemed a cautionary tale, a kind of conglomeration of humanity's worst inclinations. At least in what we see of some of them, briefly, in DoD. It could even be said that they were at fault in their own demise. But I don't understand the satisfaction in condemning them, any more than in the condemnation of Hetan. Their ends were horrific, regardless of how much or little I approved of their behaviors.

And that's not to say it wasn't also thrilling and awesome. Draconus is gonna be a pretty badass player in the finale, I'd wager.

This post has been edited by worrywort: 03 June 2010 - 01:37 AM

[cerveza_fiesta]

Sweet!

Speaking of Barghast Pwnage...I just got through the final Barghast scene in the last chapter of DoD.

Perfect ending to their existence. I half thought they were just going to be left at "starving mess" by SE...but then Tool comes along....and some sweet POV deaths....and

No more Barghast.

Fuck those guys anyway.

[foolio]

Quote

Fuck those guys anyway.

amen

[The Seguleh 46th]

worrywort, on 03 June 2010 - 01:36 AM, said:

I know her status, and it doesn't translate to power. Obviously. Since she was hobbled and raped by those she had "power" over. And that assumption is not a logical conclusion, let alone the only one. It's a non sequitur if/then fallacy. Which doesn't mean I don't like the quote you ended with, it's a nice sentiment. But evil can certainly triumph in the face of opposition, even good opposition.. There's another version that goes: "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." And I think that's a bit closer to the truth, as it never guarantees the triumph of good.

Like I said, I understand how the Barghast could be deemed a cautionary tale, a kind of conglomeration of humanity's worst inclinations. At least in what we see of some of them, briefly, in DoD. It could even be said that they were at fault in their own demise. But I don't understand the satisfaction in condemning them, any more than in the condemnation of Hetan. Their ends were horrific, regardless of how much or little I approved of their behaviors.

And that's not to say it wasn't also thrilling and awesome. Draconus is gonna be a pretty badass player in the finale, I'd wager.

Im with ya on your overall assessment, especially your last sentence in the second paragraph. I viewed them kinda like what someone said about being parasitic to the earth, yet at the same time there was some goodness there. The "killer" of Tool being a prime example of maybe a coming of age type thing, i don't know. They were a wild culture that lived and breathed war, more often amongst themselves than any common enemy, which never bodes well. Also their culture had grown quite stagnant, or stubborn might be a better term, which seems to me to be a recurring theme of the author IMO, that if you can't adapt or evolve (at least culturally) you're pretty much headed for disaster (KCCM pre-DOD, 7 Cities pre-Kellenvad from the way i read into it, etc.)

[foolio]

now having stated my hatred for the Barghast I did really start to like the Ak'ryn warleader and his people. And just wanted to verify, it was the KCNR that killed his daughter right?

[D'rek]

The Seguleh 46th, on 17 June 2010 - 02:19 AM, said:

7 Cities pre-Kellenvad from the way i read into it, etc.)

Except for that city Febryl was from that had a giant library which pissed of Dassem when they burned it. The cities of 7C overall were probably developing just like Quon Tali would, but the tribes I would definitely concur with you on.

foolio, on 17 June 2010 - 12:45 PM, said:

now having stated my hatred for the Barghast I did really start to like the Ak'ryn warleader and his people. And just wanted to verify, it was the KCNR that killed his daughter right?

That or Draconus. Whichever one was last was Drac and the rest were KCNR...

[The Seguleh 46th]

D, on 17 June 2010 - 08:51 PM, said:

The Seguleh 46th, on 17 June 2010 - 02:19 AM, said:

7 Cities pre-Kellenvad from the way i read into it, etc.)

Except for that city Febryl was from that had a giant library which pissed of Dassem when they burned it. The cities of 7C overall were probably developing just like Quon Tali would, but the tribes I would definitely concur with you on.

Yep, pretty much meant the continent's overall culture. Remembering something about Kel getting them to embrace family more or something along those lines, and other various things they did that seemed to stall their growth as a culture. I took it to mean that human life itself was pretty much an afterthought in their culture, more along the lines of "survival of the fittest" or "baptisim by fire" sort of living for their young. I do agree that the priests and others cut from similar cloth most likely had a thriving intellectual community, but the overall 7C population seemed a train wreck, IMO.

[Sarkaukar]

The Seguleh 46th, on 17 June 2010 - 02:19 AM, said:

<br />

worrywort, on 03 June 2010 - 01:36 AM, said:

<br />I know her status, and it doesn't translate to power. Obviously. Since she was hobbled and raped by those she had &quot;power&quot; over. And that assumption is not a logical conclusion, let alone the only one. It's a non sequitur if/then fallacy. Which doesn't mean I don't like the quote you ended with, it's a nice sentiment. But evil can certainly triumph in the face of opposition, even <i>good</i> opposition.. There's another version that goes: &quot;All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.&quot; And I think that's a bit closer to the truth, as it never guarantees the triumph of good.<br /><br />Like I said, I understand how the Barghast could be deemed a cautionary tale, a kind of conglomeration of humanity's worst inclinations. At least in what we see of some of them, briefly, in DoD. It could even be said that they were at fault in their own demise. But I don't understand the satisfaction in condemning them, any more than in the condemnation of Hetan. Their ends were horrific, regardless of how much or little I approved of their behaviors.<br /><br />And that's not to say it wasn't also thrilling and awesome. Draconus is gonna be a pretty badass player in the finale, I'd wager.<br />

<br /><br />Im with ya on your overall assessment, especially your last sentence in the second paragraph. I viewed them kinda like what someone said about being parasitic to the earth, yet at the same time there was some goodness there. The &quot;killer&quot; of Tool being a prime example of maybe a coming of age type thing, i don't know. They were a wild culture that lived and breathed war, more often amongst themselves than any common enemy, which never bodes well. Also their culture had grown quite stagnant, or stubborn might be a better term, which seems to me to be a recurring theme of the author IMO, that if you can't adapt or evolve (at least culturally) you're pretty much headed for disaster (KCCM pre-DOD, 7 Cities pre-Kellenvad from the way i read into it, etc.)<br />

<br /><br /><br />

Another thing to consider is that the Barghast/Moranth can count Imass as part of their ancestry. Then take into considering how the majority of the Imass ended up as T'lan Imass, one of the reoccurring themes would be that other species/races are more one sided, there's no gray area, more of just one flavor whereas humans can have multiple flavors. Those races need to have another race of opposite qualities to balance them out. Look at humans, every god/ascendant has used them, as their flavor can change from one moment to another, thus why the M'Chain Che'Malle has hope with Stormy and Geslar.

As for Hetan's hobbling, it does make one wonder what the series would be like if SE had NOT been an archaeologist or anthropologist, and how short the books would have been if he did not include the little details he has throughout the series.

[Rath Orlong]

Quote

one of the reoccurring themes would be that other species/races are more one sided, there's no gray area, more of just one flavor whereas humans can have multiple flavors. Those races need to have another race of opposite qualities to balance them out. Look at humans, every god/ascendant has used them, as their flavor can change from one moment to another

That's a thought I've had several times reading this series. Well said.

I also think that Erikson was making a comment about the romantic illusion of the noble savage. They're really not noble except when viewed through the lense of history or from a distance. Their simplicity and nearness to nature makes them seem admirable and courageous, but their offhanded brutality makes us recoil in horror.

[cerveza_fiesta]

aha...nice comments Rud and Sar

Never really thought about it that way. Not so much hobbling being another reason to hate the Barghast as much as hobbling being a means of dispeling the noble savage thing and portraying the Barghast as a ritual-driven bunch of ignorant fucks, way out of their league in a world that's essentially abandoned their mode of living and their style of government. It's all fine and dandy to live by the sword and maintain power by brute strength when you have no outside influences and the alternative for your populace is living alone...but when you're under extinction pressure from all sides, it requires a bit more intra-species cooperation to survive at all.

In later thoughts RE hobbling I realized it really serves an important function in a govern-by-strength society. In much the same way public exectutions were used long ago to mitigate serious crimes, hobbling and associated children-icide practices make the price of failure to attain (and maintain) power so outrageously high and visible to the populace that only the strongest and most powerful adversaries will challenge the leader on a regular basis. That way every random jerkoff youth isn't challenging you to a swordfight every 5 minutes. It also strongly motivates the sitting leader to do everything to maintain power and (by extension) stability of government, since he and his line are subject to the same punishment if they fail to maintain power.

I mean, a lot of barghast (or anyone really) could stomach the idea of death in battle. As an adversary of the sitting leader in a barghast tribe though, you're not only facing your own death but the death of your genetic line and the raping-to-insanity and crippling injury to your beloved wife. It's a pretty smart control scheme for the sitting leader actually...since it plays on basic human instincts of genetic propagation, need for mate protection and it generally threatens the entire purpose of your existence. It also ensures that only the most motivated individuals with the most cunning and unscrupulous minds will even contemplate a power grab under normal circumstances, which is exactly the type of person you want in charge of a brutal war-driven society.

I realize I've had that thought before, but my mind never really articulated it until I read your posts. In that light, I'm much more OK with the hobbling scene.

[Soulessdreamer]

Given that it is the women doing the hobling of other women I'm not sure how much of a control this would/could be.
And given the insights into the female perspective shown in later chapters about the butallity of the men I am also not convinced by your protect the loving wife argument in the case of the Barghast.

I think you may be attributing behavourial and socialogical responses onto Barghast males that are just not there.

TTFN