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In angels, we find our measure chapter excerpt, could use some help

#1 User is offline   SpectreofEschaton 

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Posted 19 April 2010 - 03:51 AM

This is what should end up being the fifth chapter in my novel, To Seers' Grief, but it's giving all kinds of headaches. First real character-development scene for this character, and the problem is...he's alone, so it's mostly (entirely at the moment) internal musings. He's also something of a god, which makes internal musings...difficult to write. Also trying to do some backstory here without coming off as overt exposition and...yeah if anyone could give me some help, that'd be utterly awesome. It's not terribly long.

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V


In angels, we find our measure.

Prophets would speak of shadowed paths, of ways dark with doubt, their ends an enigma reborn and redefined in every moment. They were fools. There was only one road, stretching from the first, yawning gasp of Time on to its last, silent sigh; silent because, when it came, there would be none left to bear witness.

Wandering was a conceit, a delusion as pervasive among Lords as it was among their mortal progeny. Playing out their pitiful dramas, they had sought defiance, to rise and hold against the crushing tide of inevitability, all the while unaware that the marches of their profligate wars had been nothing more than a resonance of their own unerring walk to doom.

And thus, they had prosecuted suffering for aeons without end; had invented warfare and love, faith and death, only to bind them all together in the greatest possible betrayal. The image of them standing tall around the shattered altar of their deepest hope, knives in hand, throats opened wide, lifeblood spilling out in the illusion of promise, spilling onto the cracked, indifferent stone – was a scene dangerously enamoring to Asinori. He could well understand the fey triumph they had sought: to make a crown of their suicide whose gleam would never fade, each extinguished life a monument, a litany in stone to dam the flow of certainty.

Of course, their end hadn't been quite so poetic as that. Nonetheless, the Sorrowfall had struck, laying the Highest Heaven to waste, and in utter vanity, the Lords had given up, turned one and all to sacrificial glory and abandoned all that they had served.

Forget Lordship and Sovereignty; forget the luster of stars and the bleakness of the voids between them. Age was the one and only god, and its doctrine was futility, its priests the life-lorn: the sick, the impoverished, the decrepit, all those who saw the world bereft of its glamorous grandeur.

Let them be blessed.

In the end, it was only his disgust at the world they'd left behind that kept Asinori from indulging in a similar end. Though he was the last of their line, the aloof apathy of Lordship was spared him. He was of this realm, witness to its multitudes and all their fleeting struggles – struggles no more or less meaningful than any the Lords had undertook. Witness, and participant in every small defeat.

That was where they had failed, he believed. Facing utter ruin, they had thought only of themselves, of their fall from might, while in truth, they had been born and ever remained as powerless as the children they would forsake. Sorrow fell in splendor's wake, and would continue to fall, piling atop the heaped carcasses of too many gods to name.

What did it take, to embrace such an end? Despair would have seen them live out their final days, watching the waters rise in hopeless fixation, refusing to give voice to their rage. No, it was hope, he believed, that had been their undoing. The glimmer of immortality through heedless valor had been the lure, drawing them with such fervor that it seemed a plague, infecting first the most warlike among them, then spreading to consume them all.

All but one. How many thousands of years had passed? The gates to heaven were barred, and with each passing age the kingdoms that remained descended further into decay, as they must. A golden sky was no proof against the ravaging that came, and only showed its scars the worse. How dark it must look, when all that it had lost was laid bare, with none left to dress up the desolation.

It served nothing to ponder what the Lords could have wrought in such time, had they lived. The end, by its very nature, would be little different, regardless. The longer he lived, and watched, and came to accept the course of things, the clearer it became to Asinori that the enemy was not inevitability, but rather ineffability. Ignorance was passed down from god to servant, from father to son to son like an inheritance. The wretched misapprehension that there existed such a thing as value, as merit.

If there was anything he had gleaned from these creatures, these mortals as they lived out in years what it took his kind endless epochs to endure, it was that true futility came from empowering that eventual end, in giving oneself to it. Life would come to death, every fruit to dust. To fight it, in ones mind or upon the field as had the Lords, was the ultimate deception. The eyes of the abyss were blind, and could feel no sting. Miracles were not granted, but made.

And that left doing all the could, giving his life to every moment, until the tide came crashing down.


These glories we have raised... they shall not stand.
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#2 User is offline   Fist Gamet 

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 09:09 PM

It is always difficult to judge an exert out of context but I will give my thoughts, if I may. Firstly, you are right, it is too much exposition in one place, just makes it a chore to read. Again, going back to the point on context, if this were all the expo nestled into a scene seven or eight pages long then it might be fine (or you could spread it out).
You may be at risk of falling into the trap of trying to force the telling of a part of the story by making it fit into your idea of the scene. By this I mean that you have this idea that he is alone, thus musing and are now having difficulty putting across what you want to put across because it is all exposition. Thus, the character being alone is the problem. He could either be discussing these thoughts with a friend, or even having the thoughts during a talk with an enemy (allowing us to learn of his character in reading the differences between what he says and what he thinks - we all do it, after all). Mixing exposition and dialogue and thoughts will make it more interesting, imho. It could even be part of it written down like in a diary he has written and is reading over, with other parts the new thoughts he is having during the read? An idea, maybe.
PS - don't have him talk to himself or in prayers to a God or into a mirror, which would just come across as lazy writing :p

On one last point, which you may or may not agree with (which is cool) I do feel that you are over-writing. I had to work fairly hard to understand what you were saying throughout that piece, and that's not usually a good thing for your reader. There are a few old useage rules regarding English grammar and language (see Strunk and White) that I always find useful, and one of the primary lessons is that if there is a simple way to say something with plain, simple words and structure, then do it that way. I am paraphrasing but hopefully you get the idea. Writing should never be about the writer demonstrating their wonderful grasp of vocabulary and use of the thesaurus, but about telling a good story for the reader.
Just to give an example...

"...Wandering was a conceit, a delusion as pervasive among Lords as it was among their mortal progeny. Playing out their pitiful dramas, they had sought defiance, to rise and hold against the crushing tide of inevitability, all the while unaware that the marches of their profligate wars had been nothing more than a resonance of their own unerring walk to doom..."

Now, I have to be honest and say I still don't really know what this is all about. Sure it's quite cool and cryptic, but I don't want to have to work everything out and I really do not want to regularly have to read and reread lines to understand what you are trying to tell me. Is there really no simpler and more user-friendly way to say this?

Returning to the point of musings - presuumably all the information and insight you offer in the whole piece comes from the thoughts of the main character Asinori. Or are they? I ask because sometimes it seems that yes, they are, and then not (you do use Italics at one point for a direct thought) Perhaps it will help to make it clearer.
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#3 User is offline   SpectreofEschaton 

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Posted 22 April 2010 - 03:07 AM

Um...wow. First off, let me thank you. I find it incredibly difficult to get critiques for my work, and yours was excellent. Again, thanks.

Now, to actually get into it:

View PostFist Gamet, on 21 April 2010 - 09:09 PM, said:

It is always difficult to judge an exert out of context but I will give my thoughts, if I may. Firstly, you are right, it is too much exposition in one place, just makes it a chore to read. Again, going back to the point on context, if this were all the expo nestled into a scene seven or eight pages long then it might be fine (or you could spread it out).


Well, this is actually Asinori's second appearance in the book, the first scene with him had him speaking with another character, which I feel worked a lot better in getting information across to the reader while maintaining a story-telling flow (in that, things were actually happening, it wasn't just static exposition).


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You may be at risk of falling into the trap of trying to force the telling of a part of the story by making it fit into your idea of the scene. By this I mean that you have this idea that he is alone, thus musing and are now having difficulty putting across what you want to put across because it is all exposition. Thus, the character being alone is the problem. He could either be discussing these thoughts with a friend, or even having the thoughts during a talk with an enemy (allowing us to learn of his character in reading the differences between what he says and what he thinks - we all do it, after all). Mixing exposition and dialogue and thoughts will make it more interesting, imho. It could even be part of it written down like in a diary he has written and is reading over, with other parts the new thoughts he is having during the read? An idea, maybe.
PS - don't have him talk to himself or in prayers to a God or into a mirror, which would just come across as lazy writing :p


Ah, yes, his being along is precisely the problem, and will be rectified either in the next chapter or in the end of this one, so this is really the only place I have to deal with him being alone. As I said above, he already did the chatting-with-a-friend bit in the last section, and it does work a lot better, I'll freely admit. And that *is* an interesting idea, one that I'll consider, possibly build off of. He's somewhat aspected to memory, so he could possibly be recalling similar times in his life, contrasting them with what he's going through at the moment.

And yes, that is much harder to do without resorting to some cheap device like the mentioned. :p

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On one last point, which you may or may not agree with (which is cool) I do feel that you are over-writing. I had to work fairly hard to understand what you were saying throughout that piece, and that's not usually a good thing for your reader. There are a few old useage rules regarding English grammar and language (see Strunk and White) that I always find useful, and one of the primary lessons is that if there is a simple way to say something with plain, simple words and structure, then do it that way. I am paraphrasing but hopefully you get the idea. Writing should never be about the writer demonstrating their wonderful grasp of vocabulary and use of the thesaurus, but about telling a good story for the reader.
Just to give an example...

"...Wandering was a conceit, a delusion as pervasive among Lords as it was among their mortal progeny. Playing out their pitiful dramas, they had sought defiance, to rise and hold against the crushing tide of inevitability, all the while unaware that the marches of their profligate wars had been nothing more than a resonance of their own unerring walk to doom..."

Now, I have to be honest and say I still don't really know what this is all about. Sure it's quite cool and cryptic, but I don't want to have to work everything out and I really do not want to regularly have to read and reread lines to understand what you are trying to tell me. Is there really no simpler and more user-friendly way to say this?


That is something I struggle with, though I like to think, with other characters, it doesn't come off quite as obnoxiously. Asinori just presents something of a quandary for me as he sees the world in a very abstract, dissociated way and in trying to articulate that in the narrative, I tend to get fairly verbose, usually to my detriment.

I think another part of the issue is that armed with the right information, the reader would likely have a better chance of understanding what I'm saying, it's in *getting* said info to the reader that I face my biggest obstacle. I mean, that's kind of what this chapter is supposed to do, and look how well that's working for me...

Quote


Returning to the point of musings - presuumably all the information and insight you offer in the whole piece comes from the thoughts of the main character Asinori. Or are they? I ask because sometimes it seems that yes, they are, and then not (you do use Italics at one point for a direct thought) Perhaps it will help to make it clearer.


Yes, most definitely. I can see how the italics would stand out, as the whole narrative here is more or less supposed to reflect his thoughts. Those should probably be removed.

Also, what's worse is that I have a fair bit more information I wanted to get into this scene, though it would make more sense to the reader, as it's tied more directly to the world and the story that's unfolded so far, not pseudo-philosophical musings about gods and futility (which, really, to me are more about setting up Asinori's perspective and world-view than giving the reader info, in that the stuff revealed here isn't terribly relevant outside the scope of how Asinori interprets things around him. If...that makes any sense at all.)

In closing, let me for the third time offer you my gratitude. There's a lot there to think about and some damned good advice. Thanks a lot.
These glories we have raised... they shall not stand.
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#4 User is offline   Fist Gamet 

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Posted 22 April 2010 - 09:02 PM

Ok, cool, if the style and choice of words is consistent with Asinori as a character, rather than being prevelant throughout the entire story then it will work just fine, and well done to you.
I think you may be heading towards the point I was hovering around, which was to be more selective in the information you give. Consider that it will be more involving for the reader if they actually have to use their imagination to fill in a few blanks on their own. Less is often more, and there are many authors who use the "clued in" approach (the one that springs to mind for me is Richard Morgan's sci-fi, or Charles Stross) whereby they write with the assumption that the world they create is known to you already and they use much more subtle ways to drip feed the information to the reader without interrupting the flow of the story with much exposition. Besides, you don't really want to tell us too much anyway, because leaving all the little bits here and there unanswered is what makes us return to the book again and again. Tease.
For me, I try to recall that story background can be told in so many ways. I use dialogue and a little directly relevant exposition, being careful to make sure the dialogue is relevant and not blatant (where two character just pointlessly discuss history and philosophy etc) In such cases the "clued in" approach usually works really well. I use flashback scenes to flesh out characters, and, relating to another thread here on the forum where someone pointed out the power of using alternative character points of view to create drama (using the WJ v Kallor scene from NEITHER man's PoV) you can show a lot about a character from how other people perceive them.
Glad to help.
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