[haroos]

this may be a little complicated, so here are a few things first :

in the encycolpedia section, the page about k'rul mentions a discussion raest had with k'rul, where he said to k'rul :
"You passed into the Realms of Chaos – returned to the place of your birth".

also on the same page :
"... dragons. When such creatures broke loose from their long-standing servitude to K'rul".

and we know of dragons as the sources of magic, which is the by-product of their routs in the warrens (am i right here ?).

further at the end of TTH kruppe tells k'rul that he is the prize of this war, even though, k'rul at the begining of GOTM
tells krupe he is not in this war at all.

my theory therefor :
1) the universe is born out of chaos, chaos is the place that exists before life, before form, a power of unknown purpose or existence.
2) the crippled god wants to kill k'rul and go back through his death to the realms of chaos.
3) the death of k'rul, and the CG actions to make it will bring about the end of life on WU (if not the universe), into a primal existence within chaos.

the sole intention of the CG is to go to the realms of chaos and bring everyone there with him.

This post has been edited by haroos: 13 April 2010 - 12:31 PM

[Aptorian]

Some observations.

Dragons seem to both be chaotic and magical in nature, it's the essence of their being. But they are not "The Source" of magic. Not all of it. Rather they seem to be conduits of magic. There has been a lot of discussion on the connecting between dragons, K'rull and the (house) warrens. The most likely theory is that K'rul made a pact with a group of the dragons. These dragons somehow became aspects of one or more warrens, in exchange it is possible that they were spared from being sealed into Starvald Demelain, but that's not quite certain.

Chaos is an abstract term in the Malazan Universe, while there seems to be a structure to the "Warren of Chaos" and creatures are said to exist in there, it is not a regular realm like Kurald Galain or Omotose Phellack. When it is said that the Elder Gods came out of Chaos and that MD brought order to chaos, etc. It is probably more of a metaphorical/mythological understanding. The Elder Gods represent elements. These are what came out of chaos, or rather order was made out of what ever was there before order was asserted. Maybe this was just the Big Bang, who knows. Rules were made for things, they got names, they got form. Light, Dark, Shadow, Fire, Air, Earth, Water, Time, etc. K'rul, MD, Draconus, Osserc, etc., weren't just hanging out it in the Chaos living room sipping hot coco and watching television before the Tiste Worlds were made and they came to Wu. Rather they were probably active in some other realm, or sleeping, or maybe they just didn't exist before they were willed into existence by the elements themselves or superstitious worshippers.

The CG existed in a world separate from the Malazan one. Probably on a planet circling one of the stars in the Malazan sky. He didn't live in Chaos.

[haroos]

Aptorian, on 13 April 2010 - 12:53 PM, said:

Some observations.

Dragons seem to both be chaotic and magical in nature, it's the essence of their being. But they are not "The Source" of magic. Not all of it. Rather they seem to be conduits of magic. There has been a lot of discussion on the connecting between dragons, K'rull and the (house) warrens. The most likely theory is that K'rul made a pact with a group of the dragons. These dragons somehow became aspects of one or more warrens, in exchange it is possible that they were spared from being sealed into Starvald Demelain, but that's not quite certain.

Chaos is an abstract term in the Malazan Universe, while there seems to be a structure to the "Warren of Chaos" and creatures are said to exist in there, it is not a regular realm like Kurald Galain or Omotose Phellack. When it is said that the Elder Gods came out of Chaos and that MD brought order to chaos, etc. It is probably more of a metaphorical/mythological understanding. The Elder Gods represent elements. These are what came out of chaos, or rather order was made out of what ever was there before order was asserted. Maybe this was just the Big Bang, who knows. Rules were made for things, they got names, they got form. Light, Dark, Shadow, Fire, Air, Earth, Water, Time, etc. K'rul, MD, Draconus, Osserc, etc., weren't just hanging out it in the Chaos living room sipping hot coco and watching television before the Tiste Worlds were made and they came to Wu. Rather they were probably active in some other realm, or sleeping, or maybe they just didn't exist before they were willed into existence by the elements themselves or superstitious worshippers.

The CG existed in a world separate from the Malazan one. Probably on a planet circling one of the stars in the Malazan sky. He didn't live in Chaos.

my point about chaos is that it isn't part of the existing universe, or creation.
it is something else.
what it is exactly is unknown.

about the CG, it's mentioned (to my memory) in the prologue to MOI that he came from the realms of chaos.

furthere, we know that k'rul and draconus are not the oldest beings, togg/fanderay are older, probably mael (isn;t he the oldest ?) too, so k'rul
came after a form of existence WAS.
he came from chaos, from what i understand.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

haroos, on 13 April 2010 - 01:04 PM, said:

Aptorian, on 13 April 2010 - 12:53 PM, said:

Some observations.

Dragons seem to both be chaotic and magical in nature, it's the essence of their being. But they are not "The Source" of magic. Not all of it. Rather they seem to be conduits of magic. There has been a lot of discussion on the connecting between dragons, K'rull and the (house) warrens. The most likely theory is that K'rul made a pact with a group of the dragons. These dragons somehow became aspects of one or more warrens, in exchange it is possible that they were spared from being sealed into Starvald Demelain, but that's not quite certain.

Chaos is an abstract term in the Malazan Universe, while there seems to be a structure to the "Warren of Chaos" and creatures are said to exist in there, it is not a regular realm like Kurald Galain or Omotose Phellack. When it is said that the Elder Gods came out of Chaos and that MD brought order to chaos, etc. It is probably more of a metaphorical/mythological understanding. The Elder Gods represent elements. These are what came out of chaos, or rather order was made out of what ever was there before order was asserted. Maybe this was just the Big Bang, who knows. Rules were made for things, they got names, they got form. Light, Dark, Shadow, Fire, Air, Earth, Water, Time, etc. K'rul, MD, Draconus, Osserc, etc., weren't just hanging out it in the Chaos living room sipping hot coco and watching television before the Tiste Worlds were made and they came to Wu. Rather they were probably active in some other realm, or sleeping, or maybe they just didn't exist before they were willed into existence by the elements themselves or superstitious worshippers.

The CG existed in a world separate from the Malazan one. Probably on a planet circling one of the stars in the Malazan sky. He didn't live in Chaos.

my point about chaos is that it isn't part of the existing universe, or creation.
it is something else.
what it is exactly is unknown.

about the CG, it's mentioned (to my memory) in the prologue to MOI that he came from the realms of chaos.

furthere, we know that k'rul and draconus are not the oldest beings, togg/fanderay are older, probably mael (isn;t he the oldest ?) too, so k'rul
came after a form of existence WAS.
he came from chaos, from what i understand.

I don't think it's ever mentioned that he came from chaos. It's just mentioned that he was brought down from an alien realm. And now he USES chaos power because it is the only type available to him.

[Soulessdreamer]

Wasn't chaos what Draconus sealed inside the sword draginpur?

Spoiler

You know te thing the cart was fleeing and what the armies of the dead came to hold back long enough for Draconis to escape?

TTFN

This post has been edited by Soulessdreamer: 14 April 2010 - 04:59 AM

[Eispeis]

Soulessdreamer, on 14 April 2010 - 04:53 AM, said:

Wasn't chaos what Draconus sealed inside the sword draginpur?

Spoiler

You know te thing the cart was fleeing and what the armies of the dead came to hold back long enough for Draconis to escape?

TTFN

Technically, no...

Draconus sealed the Gate of Darkness *ominous thunder*, or the gate to MD, inside Dragnipur to keep it safe from Chaos.

Technically not a spoiler as this happens in TTH, but I'll follow your example:

Spoiler

Rake and Hood's gambit to save the gate from the ever gaining Chaos caused the destruction of Dragnipur which in turn led to the release of the surviving souls held within it. Draconus never intended to escape Dragnipur as far as I can understand, but simply made use of the opportunity which presented itself when Brood(?) shattered Dragnipur

Chaos isn't necessarily a place, but rather a force in opposition to all of existence (i.e. Order). The magic/warrens system created order out of chaos, as did the naming of everything (i.e. separation into Light, Dark, Shadow etc.) as another poster mentioned. I see Chaos as basically the same as the Abyss. Chaos = entropy = nothing is ordered = nothing exists = the Abyss.

This post has been edited by Eispeis: 14 April 2010 - 06:51 AM

[haroos]

haroos, on 13 April 2010 - 12:30 PM, said:

this may be a little complicated, so here are a few things first :

in the encycolpedia section, the page about k'rul mentions a discussion raest had with k'rul, where he said to k'rul :
"You passed into the Realms of Chaos – returned to the place of your birth".

also on the same page :
"... dragons. When such creatures broke loose from their long-standing servitude to K'rul".

and we know of dragons as the sources of magic, which is the by-product of their routs in the warrens (am i right here ?).

further at the end of TTH kruppe tells k'rul that he is the prize of this war, even though, k'rul at the begining of GOTM
tells krupe he is not in this war at all.

my theory therefor :
1) the universe is born out of chaos, chaos is the place that exists before life, before form, a power of unknown purpose or existence.
2) the crippled god wants to kill k'rul and go back through his death to the realms of chaos.
3) the death of k'rul, and the CG actions to make it will bring about the end of life on WU (if not the universe), into a primal existence within chaos.

the sole intention of the CG is to go to the realms of chaos and bring everyone there with him.

after a reread of moi, i am actually more convinced than i am right.
korlat reminds rake that the chaining of the CG destroyed his nascent (meaning new, or renewed) warren, thus in effect chaining him to the world, burn.

since he now carries his realm in a tent, then he is hiding it from others, who before destroyed it.
it's also mentioned in a conversation between k'rul and lady envy that he wishes to bring pain on all, and from that i gathered that
the chaining was a way to reduce his ability to bring power to bear.

the rest of the theory is above.