[Tatterdemalion]

I have to say, I'm not a fan of Sky-Keeps.

Look, I like that KCCM have machinery-type constructs. It's a nice thing to set them apart from the other elder races. I enjoyed in Taxilian's story how they describe all the gears and coils and oil. In Kalyths at the beginning too. I liked Rooted and the other KCCM dens throughout that were grounded - they're crazy lairs of genius that any mortal stumbling upon it would have trouble accepting. That they're filled with weird lizards, even cooler.

But I don't like the idea of giant flying war land masses.

I am OKAY at best with steam and gunpowder in fantasy, preferring the middle ages to the enlightenment. It is all right. If used well, it can make the world more unique and hip. If used poorly it detracts from the magic of the fantasy realm. I love the use of munitions in Malazan and like how few other things use mechanical advancement throughout the story. It's there, but not prominent.

Pale was cool, but Moonspawn seemed very separate from the rest of the world. Out of place, even.

Black Coral was even cooler, with Rake letting Moonspawn crash into the heart of the cult. At least then it was the last of its kind - cooler by proxy to the fact that better tech existed in the past and it was now all gone.

The end of Dust of Dreams was good stuff, for sure - but did no one else feel like flying mountains firing *cough* lasers at each other was more out of an episode of Babylon 5 or Stargate SG-1 than Malazan? Sure, they involved characters we love: Icarium, mainly. Others. But where books 7 and 8 had the most awesome one on one finishes and dramatic character-driven scenes, DoD almost tried to do too much. Almost over-epic. It reminded me of how the LOTR: Return of the King movie suffered because the big battles were just heartless CGI mash-ups - whereas the battles in LOTR: Fellowship of the Ring were tight and tense scraps between main characters and immediate foes. Did anyone else find the Sky-Keeps battle... cheesy?

I like their lore, I'll admit their importance to the plot, sure, but flying mountains blasting at each other - though more epic in scope - has nothing on the tent-to-tent fighting at the end of House of Chains or Karsa versus Rhulad versus Icarium in Reaper's Gale.

I loved almost everything else about the book.

This post has been edited by Tatterdemalion: 06 April 2010 - 04:50 AM

[Sinisdar Toste]

you mean, gath'ran citadels?

honestly i have no problem with em. from as far back as we've been hearing about kccm we (or at least i) have been getting the impression that they are a sci-fi element of the world. they create machines and have super-advanced technology. compared to some other elements of the series the kccm and their sky-keeps aren't that big a deal. i mean, the jade statues are interstellar soul containers...

[Aptorian]

I thought the ending of DOD felt rushed, so yeah, the sky keep duel felt a bit off.

But I don't have any problem with flying mountains spewing death. Would it have been more tolerable for you if they had strapped KCCM sorcerers to the bow of the ship and they had been firing magic at each other instead?

The only problem I have with the KCCM supposedly having very, very advanced technology is the fact that none of it seems to have rubbed off on the other Elder Races or the younger ones. There has never been any mention of the gods suppressing knowledge of the KCCM technology or people other than Icarium knowing anything about it.

[Kettle's Crisp]

I don't mind a little sci-fi in my fantasy mix. I think SE has done a pretty cool job of introducing a slight sci-fi element throughout the series. I agree that the sky keep dual at the end felt a little rushed. But, I'd rather read about K Nah'ruk and their use of lasers/lightning/thingy than endless pages of travel by horse and where to camp for the night.

[Gothos]

The K'Chain machinery seems to utilize magic as well as technology. Possibly in the manner of imbued artifacts.

As a side note, I think the best combo of tech and fantasy was in Theif's steampunk setting. But I'm a hopeless fanboy of those games. wru looking glass?

[Abyss]

Moranth munitions are basically pure chemistry, no magic required (Blue Moranth munitions exempted). Samar Dev invented a pedal car. And elsewhere in DoD, the KC have what could easily be described as nanotech. So hey, why NOT sky keeps and flying cities?

I had no problem with the sky keep battle. The KN invasion force had been mustering for who knows how long, so why shouldn't they have their air support ready to go?

All of that to say i enjoyed what SE did with the 'tech' elements of the story. 'Magic' in genre literature doesn't need to be limited to fireballs, sheild spells and flying carpets. The whole 'sufficiently advances magic/science is indistinguishable from science/magic' concept revolves around the point that magic is just another way of doing things.

- Abyss, could use another way of making coffee without leaving his office.

[Hellian's Keg Lid]

 Aptorian, on 06 April 2010 - 06:21 AM, said:

Would it have been more tolerable for you if they had strapped KCCM sorcerers to the bow of the ship

That made me giggle.

I like the sky keeps, and really didn't mind them coming out of nowhere after Seren and others reffing how every battle ended in complete and utter conflagration so there wasn't much left around to figure out. Besides we have inventors like Samar Dev getting there on her own

[Sinisdar Toste]

yes, the other species have been coming along. its just that the kccm have the advantage of being a sort of 'collective consciousness' of their entire species. gunth mach knows the entire history of the kccm. she can speak in any che'malles mind and they can answer her. with such a system of communication, the flow of knowledge and coordination of resources would proceed on a level of efficiency that no other species can match. nothing would ever be forgotten by any generation. if one k'chain has a good idea, they all simultaneously have that idea and know how to most effectively enact it.

this of course also seems to lead them to being set in their ways, which resulted in them being pushed to the brink of extinction.

This post has been edited by Sinisdar Toste: 06 April 2010 - 06:54 PM

[foolio]

yeah, I agree, I didnt like them either.

[Illuyankas]

Having skykeeps opens up the opportunity for Caladan Brood to fly on Silannah's back, jump off and hit a skykeep with his hammer. This is, of course, FUCKING AWESOME.

The ending of DoD was a sign, that things are about to get absolutely crazy. I'm rather looking forward to it.

[Aptorian]

I reckon the last battle will include Fener arriving as a gigantic boar trampling everyone.

Fiddler then uses his munitions cross bow to fire Broods Hammer into Feners eye, making the giant pigs head explode. Fener tumbles to the ground crushing the CG and the capital city of Kolanse and breaking Limps leg.

[worry]

Certainly preferable to the flying, laser-shooting Sky-Peeps.

[Gothos]

I think Tavore will carry an [i]amber[/b] ring to a volcano just near Kolanse and the biggest CG fragmet and throw it into the lava. Afterwards she'll fly home with Ganoes on the Enkaral possesed by a demon...

[Aptorian]

 worrywort, on 07 April 2010 - 05:23 AM, said:

Certainly preferable to the flying, laser-shooting Sky-Peeps.

Reminds me of this, I think it was CF who made it:

I guess you could call them Kell Peeps.

 roflbot-GHIJ.jpg (60.45K)
Number of downloads: 3

This post has been edited by Aptorian: 07 April 2010 - 03:02 PM

[worry]

haha that's awesome.

[amphibian]

 Abyss, on 06 April 2010 - 02:43 PM, said:

Moranth munitions are basically pure chemistry, no magic required (Blue Moranth munitions exempted). Samar Dev invented a pedal car. And elsewhere in DoD, the KC have what could easily be described as nanotech. So hey, why NOT sky keeps and flying cities?

There's probably a Malcom Gladwell (or Gladwell-style) article about the "catchiness" of certain inventions and technologies. Some inventions like the light bulb catch on immediately while others like the water-powered car don't. The reasons for success and failure aren't always easily understood. On Wu, weapons, clothing, household items and the saddle seem to be nearly universally utilized, while the nano-tech and the skykeeps remain the province of the extinct lizards. One reason why these technologies may not have caught on - besides the prevalence of magic - is that the inventors keep getting wiped out by atechnological beings like the Deragoth/Tenescowri or the inventors have no PR agents to publicize their inventions (like Samar Dev and the inventin' stanky-leg T'lan).

Darujhistan may be the single most tecmologicaly oriented modern populace we've seen thus far and they appear to be still celebrating the achievement of city-wide gas lighting.

[Aptorian]

But this is Wu, it's filled with hundred thousand year old creatures and gods. If just one Ascendant or God of technology had emerged, you'd think that science and mechanics could flourish.

Your 250,000 canabal Tenescowri aren't going to be much use against Capustan if the Greyswords has put machine gun nests on the walls.

[worry]

Hmm, I suppose any show of that kind of weaponry would be exploded in the users' faces by enemy mages. Moranth munitions are basically kept in bags until they're needed, but I don't think any prominent display of gunpowder or such would be useful. I am a bit fearful for Darujhistan since it has the natural gas piped everywhere, and some bad stuff is set to go down there.

[Sinisdar Toste]

yeah and no anomander rake to snuff out the fires this time.

[amphibian]

 Aptorian, on 08 April 2010 - 06:01 AM, said:

But this is Wu, it's filled with hundred thousand year old creatures and gods. If just one Ascendant or God of technology had emerged, you'd think that science and mechanics could flourish.

Your 250,000 canabal Tenescowri aren't going to be much use against Capustan if the Greyswords has put machine gun nests on the walls.

For whatever reasons, metal hasn't been used as a material much on Wu for anything beyond edged weapons. Alloys haven't been widespread either. This isn't something that Erikson has directly written about, but it seems that scavenging/mining in the books is devoted to more valuable items than simple metal - otataral and Imass artifacts have been the primary examples thus far. The gods seem to be actively slowing down change (for the most part); rapid change allows the most nimble to gain advantages and the response by the less nimble is to slow the game down (just like in football/basketball/Sport X). I would think that a god of technology would be driven out rather quickly or pressured to play a very minor role. We do have corporations and group endeavors that could be devoted to working with metals, as well as widespread weapons productions, but in the post-Lizard Age, we don't have metal being used as a building structure yet or perhaps the education system required to churn out true engineers able to use the metals for buildings.

Only the lizards have done these things and now they're back - at a time where lots of people are ready or almost ready to start working on that kind of stuff.