[Hood's Legacy]

Hello,

I have read all the books from 1-8 (currently re-reading to go through 3 and 9). I have come across several mentions of 'Avatars'. From what I have seen (okay read) Avatars could be anyone ranging from one possessed (Sorry/Apsalar) to one who is just a skilled practitioner of their warren (Iskaral). Sometimes, it could also be a charlatan. (I forgot Anomander's son's name, who keeps spinning 'em rings). What exactly is a definition of an Avatar in the Malazan world?
Note: I have also come across this somewhere: Is Kruppe an avatar or Krull or does Krull just use him for passing on divinations?

[MTS]

Looking through the books, I found a couple mentions of avatars.

Quote

'Could be the only dry underfoot we'll find,' Gesler said. 'As for the rest, think of the tale you'll spin in the next tavern, Stormy. You'll have them pissing their pants and rushing off to the nearest temple for a blessing. You could set it up to take a cut from the avatars.'

Quote

'Not Fener. But consider this. The god of war has been dethroned. And another has
risen in its place, as necessity demanded. The Tiger of Summer, who was once the First
Hero, Treach. A Soletaken of the First Empire… now a god. His need will be great,
Chosen One, for mortal champions and avatars, to aid him in establishing the role he
would assume. A Mortal Sword, a Shield Anvil, a Destriant - all of the ancient titles… and
the powers the god invests in them.'

Quote

'He's an avatar of Shadowthrone,' the sapper said, eyes narrowing. 'Or the Rope, Cotillion, the Patron of Assassins — there's little difference between the two.'

Quote

An alien god had usurped them, and had made of a young Edur warrior an avatar, a champion...

Quote

Nor did it seem likely that the Queen of Dreams would knowingly accept the presence of an avatar of
Hood within her realm.

I suppose from that you can take it to mean two things:
1) a priest of some particular god, as in the first, third and fifth quotes I posted.
or
2) an extra-special person invested with special powers by a god such as a MS, as in the second and fourth quotes I posted.

Sorry/Apsalar was possessed, Cotillion acting directly through her, and when he left it was all still there. Thus. Iskaral is the Magus of Shadow, and the Highest of High Priests I imagine. Clip is a trickier case, since Anomander doesn't actually recognise him, but he nevertheless worships Rake, and Kruppe is a complete mystery, so you won't get any answers there. Although I can say he isn't K'rul's servant. It's mentioned that their partnership is one of equals.

Quote

What Kruppe manipulates is circumstance. Somehow. I don't feel we are fated to dance as he wills. There is an Elder God behind the Daru, but even there, I think it's more an alliance of… mutual benefit, almost between equals. A partnership, if you will. Now, I'll grant you, all this is speculation on my part, but I'll tell you this: I have been manipulated before, as have you. But this time it feels different. Less inimical. Dujek, I sense compassion this time.'

This post has been edited by MTS: 05 April 2010 - 11:36 AM

[Sindriss]

I always took avatar to mean some minor part of the god which was controlled by the god in question. That merchant in MOI is an avatar of Krul for example.

[MTS]

Yeah, it obviously has multiple applications, but in common parlance the ones I listed seem the most used.

[rhulad]

I always took an avatar to be someone who is working in a Gods interest at a request from the god in question whether it was willingly or not (ie Sorry).

[Ulrik]

Avatar is impersonation - some power, god, anything. Usually posess some abilities of the "power", can be said avatar is "champion".
wiki solidly describes origin and meaning of word avatar http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avatar

[Hood's Legacy]

Ulrik, on 05 April 2010 - 04:55 PM, said:

Avatar is impersonation - some power, god, anything. Usually posess some abilities of the "power", can be said avatar is "champion".
wiki solidly describes origin and meaning of word avatar http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avatar

So the Destraints, First Swords, all mortal champions at the best of their respective cults, could they be called 'Avatars'?
Since these champions usually possess attributes that are associated with their gods. 'Clip' could open a portal to the Kurald Emrulahn warren from his rings(same as his father's mouth in his soletaken form).. This makes a lot of sense. Though, this could also mean that they could be the next in line in ascendancy as potential contenders... hmm.. could Dassem end up being the next hood...(I haven't read book 9) just musing, so please don't help me with the Dassem part.

Also, about the solteaken and d'ivers, I would like to know more, the books don't provide a lot of background info, just the beginnings of the madness that gripped the youngsters. But what caused the madness? Are there any gods for the soletaken and d'ivers race ? (Book 2 talks about the convergence, but not in much detail). From what I am able to infer, a soletaken or d'ivers form is more akin to 'totems'. A person's soul/body could morph into their respective totems. If it is a disease and the madness could be controlled (Dragnipurake can), then how awesome it would be to contract it?

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Re : shapeshifters.

The Soletaken were born after the First Empire ritual. Basically the entire population became Soletaken and the T'lann Imass had to come and slaughter most of them. It seems that later some of the soletaken managed to become D'ivers(see Treach's comments on Ryllandaras). The entire Path of Hands thingy meant that one shapeshifter could have become the God of Shapeshifters and control the others but thanks to Pust nothing happened. However it was hinted in HoC that now that the Wolwes sit on the Beast Throne they can control them.

Rake and the other Eleint Soletaken have nothing to do with this. They became Soletaken by drinking Tiam's blood(or by having sex with her) or by descending from someone who did so. As to the madness it seems just a question of willpower.(More in DoD)

Also, Clip isn't Rake's son. That is Nimander. Clip claims to be Rake's MS, but I sincerely doubt it.

[Abyss]

More or less agreeing with the upthread posts, as with 'ascendent', 'champion', 'god', 'elder god', 'aspect' and any position within a House, 'avatar' can have a lot of different meanings.


- Abyss, ...means 'abyss'.

[Ulrik]

Hood, on 06 April 2010 - 10:13 AM, said:

Ulrik, on 05 April 2010 - 04:55 PM, said:

Avatar is impersonation - some power, god, anything. Usually posess some abilities of the "power", can be said avatar is "champion".
wiki solidly describes origin and meaning of word avatar http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avatar

So the Destraints, First Swords, all mortal champions at the best of their respective cults, could they be called 'Avatars'?
Since these champions usually possess attributes that are associated with their gods. 'Clip' could open a portal to the Kurald Emrulahn warren from his rings(same as his father's mouth in his soletaken form).. This makes a lot of sense. Though, this could also mean that they could be the next in line in ascendancy as potential contenders... hmm.. could Dassem end up being the next hood...(I haven't read book 9) just musing, so please don't help me with the Dassem part.

Also, about the solteaken and d'ivers, I would like to know more, the books don't provide a lot of background info, just the beginnings of the madness that gripped the youngsters. But what caused the madness? Are there any gods for the soletaken and d'ivers race ? (Book 2 talks about the convergence, but not in much detail). From what I am able to infer, a soletaken or d'ivers form is more akin to 'totems'. A person's soul/body could morph into their respective totems. If it is a disease and the madness could be controlled (Dragnipurake can), then how awesome it would be to contract it?

IMHO you are taking it too literally. Sorry can be Cotillion´s Avatar. For me, avatar is more personally connected to his "god". Traveller is maybe avatar of Dessembrae. IMO its in MBoF connected to mortal "world" version of god (like Hood at the end of TtH.

[Hood's Legacy]

Ulrik, on 06 April 2010 - 05:40 PM, said:

Hood, on 06 April 2010 - 10:13 AM, said:

Ulrik, on 05 April 2010 - 04:55 PM, said:

Avatar is impersonation - some power, god, anything. Usually posess some abilities of the "power", can be said avatar is "champion".
wiki solidly describes origin and meaning of word avatar http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avatar

So the Destraints, First Swords, all mortal champions at the best of their respective cults, could they be called 'Avatars'?
Since these champions usually possess attributes that are associated with their gods. 'Clip' could open a portal to the Kurald Emrulahn warren from his rings(same as his father's mouth in his soletaken form).. This makes a lot of sense. Though, this could also mean that they could be the next in line in ascendancy as potential contenders... hmm.. could Dassem end up being the next hood...(I haven't read book 9) just musing, so please don't help me with the Dassem part.

Also, about the solteaken and d'ivers, I would like to know more, the books don't provide a lot of background info, just the beginnings of the madness that gripped the youngsters. But what caused the madness? Are there any gods for the soletaken and d'ivers race ? (Book 2 talks about the convergence, but not in much detail). From what I am able to infer, a soletaken or d'ivers form is more akin to 'totems'. A person's soul/body could morph into their respective totems. If it is a disease and the madness could be controlled (Dragnipurake can), then how awesome it would be to contract it?

IMHO you are taking it too literally. Sorry can be Cotillion´s Avatar. For me, avatar is more personally connected to his "god". Traveller is maybe avatar of Dessembrae. IMO its in MBoF connected to mortal "world" version of god (like Hood at the end of TtH.

Hood's Breath.., did not ever see that. All the avatars keep speaking to their gods all the while. That is why they seem to be ahead of their peers.