[Vesper]

I don't remember, but did he manage to get it when he was possessing people in Darujhistan? I don't believe he did (hence why the Azath house in Darujhistan is called the Finnest house), and, knowing from how much this book emphasizes the amount of power stored in a Finnest, this begs a question:

Had Raest succeeded in getting his Finnest, could Rake have possibly beaten him?

A major point in this book comes when someone points out that the T'lann Imass serve to destroy ancient tyrants, but that purpose is somewhat superfluous as new players of incredible power have arisen. Yet, if Raest was fighting with such a tremendous handicap as only (let's say) 5% of his power, and was still able to obliterate several square miles of land and then take on Rake in his soletaken form, even an army of T'lann Imass wouldn't have been able to defeat him -- and that certainly was the case hundreds of thousands of years ago when it took an army of Jaghut and T'lann Imass to just bind him because they couldn't kill him.

So why would people think that all the potential allies in the world would be too much?




...also, on another note, why the hell didn't Raest ascend and become a god of some ancient hold? He obviously had the power, and:

Spoiler

other Jaghut, like Hood, seem to have done it

With the power of a hold at his command, he would have potentially been able to sway a vast majority of the pantheon with only a fraction of his weight.

[Shinrei]

Not bad speculation, although guessing at what % of his power he was at is difficult. The question begs to be reversed though - how many T'lan Imass and Jaghut would it take to bind Rake?

[MTS]

Raest never fought Rake, he got hacked up by Tool in the dreamtime then blowed up by QB and Hedge. If he did though, you could bet he'd be draggin' chain right now.

As for whether he would beat him...I don't want to turn this into a ho'd win ('cos we all know the answer , but I reckon it's a safe bet. We have evidence of how badass this guy is. Dragons and EGs live in fear of him. He commands the respect of everybody, and you can bet your sweet ass Gothos would share his ashcakes with him. But we're getting off topic. T'lan Imass armies aren't just walking skeletons with long bones and big ass swords. The strongest part of a TI army are the Bonecasters. They can go toe-to-toe with the best mage-wise, and could have handled him (in fact, they did). What they mean by too much I think is the politics behind it all. Get too many conniving, crafty Ascendants in on a plan and you can be sure someone will fuck shit up for their own advantage. Even Brood and Rake go behind each other's back, and those guys are tighter than Brokeback.

As for your second point, the guy was a god. To the T'lan Imass. And he sure as hell was/is an Ascendant.

[Aptorian]

Vesper, on 04 April 2010 - 08:26 AM, said:

I don't remember, but did he manage to get it when he was possessing people in Darujhistan? I don't believe he did (hence why the Azath house in Darujhistan is called the Finnest house), and, knowing from how much this book emphasizes the amount of power stored in a Finnest, this begs a question:

The Azath ate the Finnest, using the power to grow and become strong enough to hold Raest. Hence the name, Finnest House.

Vesper, on 04 April 2010 - 08:26 AM, said:

Had Raest succeeded in getting his Finnest, could Rake have possibly beaten him?

This is a ho'd win type question that is hard to guess the outcome off and will always end with the conclusion that Wolverine wins. If you do a search on the topic you should find plenty of old discussions on the topic.

One problem lies in the fact that GotM is a bit off in it's portrail of characters, their strengths and what is possible to do with magic compared with the rest of the series... or at least it seems that way. It's possible that Raest in GotM is portrayed as being stronger than he should be or that Rake looks weaker than he should.

But going by Rakes own assessment of such a clash, it sounds very likely that Raest could win.

Clashes between Ascendants/Gods often don't pan out like we expect in the books, very rarely do the power players actually use actual "destructive force" to take each other out, rather the clashes are quick and very physical or there's some trickery involved.

I personally think that if it was a fair fight with weapons, on a side street in Darujistan, Rake would slice and dice Raest, if it was a contest of magical strength, on a big plain, fair odds, then Raest would obliterate Rake.

Vesper, on 04 April 2010 - 08:26 AM, said:

A major point in this book comes when someone points out that the T'lann Imass serve to destroy ancient tyrants, but that purpose is somewhat superfluous as new players of incredible power have arisen. Yet, if Raest was fighting with such a tremendous handicap as only (let's say) 5% of his power, and was still able to obliterate several square miles of land and then take on Rake in his soletaken form, even an army of T'lann Imass wouldn't have been able to defeat him -- and that certainly was the case hundreds of thousands of years ago when it took an army of Jaghut and T'lann Imass to just bind him because they couldn't kill him.

Just a correction, Raest and the Galyan Lord are not the same. Raest did not turn into a big dragon that was the big guy from Aral Gamelon.

Fighting Raest and binding him would most likely mean two different approaches. A magical one to bind or negate his magical strength and a physical one to actually catch and tie him down for his burial.

An army of Imass couldn't do much about his sorcery, but it could occupy him on the physical plain, an army would be needed because Jaghut are quite ferocious when cornered. The bonecasters would handle his magic. As strong as one Jaghut Tyrant is, you can expect that a group of seasoned Imass Bonecasters, using Tellan, would be quite capable of matching the Jaghut sorcery.

Raest is not immortal, very few creatures in the Malazan worlds seem to be really immortal, like say the T'lan Imass. How ever, if you kill him, destroying his physical body, then his soul is released. The problem with strong Jaghut and Ascendants alike is that their souls may linger, or wander, and if they get the oppertunity they can find a new host and the problem starts a new. You see this when his physical body is discarted and he instead takes over Mammoth.

Vesper, on 04 April 2010 - 08:26 AM, said:

So why would people think that all the potential allies in the world would be too much?

I admit I don't understand what you mean her.

Vesper, on 04 April 2010 - 08:26 AM, said:

...also, on another note, why the hell didn't Raest ascend and become a god of some ancient hold? He obviously had the power, and:

Spoiler

other Jaghut, like Hood, seem to have done it

With the power of a hold at his command, he would have potentially been able to sway a vast majority of the pantheon with only a fraction of his weight.

It's a pretty safe bet to guess that Jaghut Tyrants in fact are Ascendants. Raest probably was a god in his time, worshipped by the lesser mortal races. That is part of why the T'lan Imass are so nasty, they attack any kind of tyrant or false god, because when they were children, Jaghut, Dragons and cruel Elder Gods toyed with them.

An ambitious, power hungry ascendant, no matter how strong, as a God of a Hold or any other kind of important power source would not be tolerated by the rest of the Pantheon. They would turn upon him and tear him to pieces.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

MTS, on 04 April 2010 - 01:00 PM, said:

Even Brood and Rake go behind each other's back, and those guys are tighter than Brokeback.

Wow. Just the image I needed to ruin Easter. Rake's not freaky enough with the whole Silanah and Envy thing? I mean honestly...what's this guys problem with the Andii?

[haroos]

ganoes paran absorbed it, didn't he ? and so he ascended.


and since hood was a jaghut, does that mean that paran is on an equal footing with hood ? with the finnest and all ?

This post has been edited by haroos: 04 April 2010 - 04:28 PM

[Aptorian]

Paran did not absorb it, he shifted into a shadow of a Hound and "distracted" it for a while, until the timing was right.

Paran became the Master of the Deck in the third book, but that doesn't have anything particular to do with Raests finnest.

This post has been edited by Aptorian: 04 April 2010 - 05:19 PM

[Vesper]

MTS, on 04 April 2010 - 01:00 PM, said:

Raest never fought Rake, he got hacked up by Tool in the dreamtime then blowed up by QB and Hedge. If he did though, you could bet he'd be draggin' chain right now.

Question mark?
Was the battle on the plains outside Darujhistan not between Rake, in his soletaken form, and the recently wakened Raest? It was my understanding that Tool and Lorne released Raest to create a situation of mutual destruction between Rake and Raest, removing the Tiste Andii lord from the picture so the Malazan army could conquer Darujhistan. I know that Raest went and possessed a bunch of people, but that was only after he had a running battle with Rake close enough to the free city. I know that the Galayn Lord fight came after, but I'm talking about the huge fight that made all the mages in Darujhistan sick from miles away.

MTS, on 04 April 2010 - 01:00 PM, said:

As for whether he would beat him...I don't want to turn this into a ho'd win ('cos we all know the answer , but I reckon it's a safe bet. We have evidence of how badass this guy is. Dragons and EGs live in fear of him. He commands the respect of everybody, and you can bet your sweet ass Gothos would share his ashcakes with him. But we're getting off topic. T'lan Imass armies aren't just walking skeletons with long bones and big ass swords. The strongest part of a TI army are the Bonecasters. They can go toe-to-toe with the best mage-wise, and could have handled him (in fact, they did). What they mean by too much I think is the politics behind it all. Get too many conniving, crafty Ascendants in on a plan and you can be sure someone will fuck shit up for their own advantage. Even Brood and Rake go behind each other's back, and those guys are tighter than Brokeback.

I understand the power of the Bonecasters, but, if we go back to the start of MoI, we learn that it took a pragmatic alliance between the T'lan Imass and the Jaghut to bind Raest, meaning that the Bonecasters and the Jaghut separately were not enough. With the T'lan Imass armies now scattered around the world (including embroiled in Lether as of MoI) it seems more and more unlikely to me that, according to the point I was trying to make, the 'new players' that have risen are not a match for the old powers, unlike what is implied in MoI.

MTS, on 04 April 2010 - 01:00 PM, said:

As for your second point, the guy was a god. To the T'lan Imass. And he sure as hell was/is an Ascendant.

Being venerated as a god is not the same as being a god... not with thrones, houses, and holds to consider. Raest claimed dominion over nothing, he merely exerted his will wherever he desired and toyed with what he regarded as lower life forms. You can bet that any High Priests that may have existed would have not received anything from him, which even Shadowthrone would do (cue Iskaral Pust summoning Hounds of Shadow). No, I wouldn't call Raest a god. Maybe he was an ascendant, but I never saw it mentioned so I was curious.

Aptorian, on 04 April 2010 - 01:22 PM, said:

Vesper, on 04 April 2010 - 08:26 AM, said:

Had Raest succeeded in getting his Finnest, could Rake have possibly beaten him?

This is a ho'd win type question that is hard to guess the outcome off and will always end with the conclusion that Wolverine wins. If you do a search on the topic you should find plenty of old discussions on the topic.

One problem lies in the fact that GotM is a bit off in it's portrail of characters, their strengths and what is possible to do with magic compared with the rest of the series... or at least it seems that way. It's possible that Raest in GotM is portrayed as being stronger than he should be or that Rake looks weaker than he should.

But going by Rakes own assessment of such a clash, it sounds very likely that Raest could win.

Clashes between Ascendants/Gods often don't pan out like we expect in the books, very rarely do the power players actually use actual "destructive force" to take each other out, rather the clashes are quick and very physical or there's some trickery involved.

I personally think that if it was a fair fight with weapons, on a side street in Darujistan, Rake would slice and dice Raest, if it was a contest of magical strength, on a big plain, fair odds, then Raest would obliterate Rake.

Without trying to perpetuate a 'who'd win' discussion, I would bring up that Rake had blasted the hell out of Raest with his Kurald Galain sorcery/dragon breath to the point that Raest was only held together by his Omthose Phellak (spelling? hah) warren. Then he possessed a bunch of people in Darujhistan and Quick Ben and Hedge blasted him apart. Remember? Silanah and other Eleint soletaken took to fighting Raest first, then were relieved by Rake when he veered into his draconic form that dwarfed even Silanah.

MTS, on 04 April 2010 - 01:00 PM, said:

Vesper, on 04 April 2010 - 08:26 AM, said:

A major point in this book comes when someone points out that the T'lann Imass serve to destroy ancient tyrants, but that purpose is somewhat superfluous as new players of incredible power have arisen. Yet, if Raest was fighting with such a tremendous handicap as only (let's say) 5% of his power, and was still able to obliterate several square miles of land and then take on Rake in his soletaken form, even an army of T'lann Imass wouldn't have been able to defeat him -- and that certainly was the case hundreds of thousands of years ago when it took an army of Jaghut and T'lann Imass to just bind him because they couldn't kill him.

Just a correction, Raest and the Galyan Lord are not the same. Raest did not turn into a big dragon that was the big guy from Aral Gamelon.

As I said above, I was never talking about the Galayn Lord.

MTS, on 04 April 2010 - 01:00 PM, said:

Fighting Raest and binding him would most likely mean two different approaches. A magical one to bind or negate his magical strength and a physical one to actually catch and tie him down for his burial.

An army of Imass couldn't do much about his sorcery, but it could occupy him on the physical plain, an army would be needed because Jaghut are quite ferocious when cornered. The bonecasters would handle his magic. As strong as one Jaghut Tyrant is, you can expect that a group of seasoned Imass Bonecasters, using Tellan, would be quite capable of matching the Jaghut sorcery.

Raest is not immortal, very few creatures in the Malazan worlds seem to be really immortal, like say the T'lan Imass. How ever, if you kill him, destroying his physical body, then his soul is released. The problem with strong Jaghut and Ascendants alike is that their souls may linger, or wander, and if they get the oppertunity they can find a new host and the problem starts a new. You see this when his physical body is discarted and he instead takes over Mammoth.

Which, my point is, came about when Rake fucked him up. I wonder, however, if it would have been Rake's ass being handed to him with Raest in possession of his Finnest, and what rammifications that would have on the notion that the 'new players' are a match for the 'old players', which is the issue that had confronted everyone when Silverfox's intention to release the Imass became apparent. This is the crux of my question, not a 'who would beat up who' competition, because we all know it would be Icarium destroying everything in a rage before Karsa Orlong rips his head off from behind.

MTS, on 04 April 2010 - 01:00 PM, said:

Vesper, on 04 April 2010 - 08:26 AM, said:

So why would people think that all the potential allies in the world would be too much?

I admit I don't understand what you mean her.

See above.

MTS, on 04 April 2010 - 01:00 PM, said:

Vesper, on 04 April 2010 - 08:26 AM, said:

...also, on another note, why the hell didn't Raest ascend and become a god of some ancient hold? He obviously had the power, and:

Spoiler

other Jaghut, like Hood, seem to have done it

With the power of a hold at his command, he would have potentially been able to sway a vast majority of the pantheon with only a fraction of his weight.

It's a pretty safe bet to guess that Jaghut Tyrants in fact are Ascendants. Raest probably was a god in his time, worshipped by the lesser mortal races. That is part of why the T'lan Imass are so nasty, they attack any kind of tyrant or false god, because when they were children, Jaghut, Dragons and cruel Elder Gods toyed with them.

An ambitious, power hungry ascendant, no matter how strong, as a God of a Hold or any other kind of important power source would not be tolerated by the rest of the Pantheon. They would turn upon him and tear him to pieces.

As I brought up earlier, Raest was not really a god, just venerated as such by the victims of his cruel games. In regards to the gods turning on Raest... why just him? Why not

Spoiler

Hood

or other powerful ascendants?

Raest wanted to exert his will over subjects, and the best way to have done that would have been to take command of a Hold... but he didn't, and I think that's really strange.

[worry]

I don't have info for all your points, but I agree fully with MTS. The Tyrants, Raest being supreme among them, were certainly ascendants and they were worshiped as gods. Thrones, houses, and holds are irrelevant. Well, not irrelevant, but not always pertinent.

[Aptorian]

Vesper, on 04 April 2010 - 08:11 PM, said:

Was the battle on the plains outside Darujhistan not between Rake, in his soletaken form, and the recently wakened Raest? It was my understanding that Tool and Lorne released Raest to create a situation of mutual destruction between Rake and Raest, removing the Tiste Andii lord from the picture so the Malazan army could conquer Darujhistan. I know that Raest went and possessed a bunch of people, but that was only after he had a running battle with Rake close enough to the free city. I know that the Galayn Lord fight came after, but I'm talking about the huge fight that made all the mages in Darujhistan sick from miles away.

No, that was Sillanah, a true elient, and 4(5?) soletaken Andii. They were sent in to soften up Raest before the big showdown.

Sillanah is probably somewhere around the equal of Rake in size and draconic strength, but Rake has much more up his sleeve than just being a big evil dragon.

Vesper, on 04 April 2010 - 08:11 PM, said:

I understand the power of the Bonecasters, but, if we go back to the start of MoI, we learn that it took a pragmatic alliance between the T'lan Imass and the Jaghut to bind Raest, meaning that the Bonecasters and the Jaghut separately were not enough. With the T'lan Imass armies now scattered around the world (including embroiled in Lether as of MoI) it seems more and more unlikely to me that, according to the point I was trying to make, the 'new players' that have risen are not a match for the old powers, unlike what is implied in MoI.

You have to remember that the world of Wu is big place and various powerplayers and races don't have phoneline connected to a red telephone they can use to warn each other with.

The Imass and the Jaghut who thought Raest were most likely those who were closest and aware of the danger/had finally had enough with his continuing cruelty and growing ambitions. It's not like it took 10 million Imass and 100,000 thousand Jaghut to pacify Raest. More likely we're talking a couple of big clans of Imass and a handful of Jaghut.

What happened when Raest was bound was probably your typical convergence. Power drew power and a mix of players and races converged, an alliance was formed and Raest was bound. I have no doubt that the two parties on their own could have done the same thing, it would just have taken many more of them, and it would have been more difficult.

Vesper, on 04 April 2010 - 08:11 PM, said:

Being venerated as a god is not the same as being a god... not with thrones, houses, and holds to consider. Raest claimed dominion over nothing, he merely exerted his will wherever he desired and toyed with what he regarded as lower life forms. You can bet that any High Priests that may have existed would have not received anything from him, which even Shadowthrone would do (cue Iskaral Pust summoning Hounds of Shadow). No, I wouldn't call Raest a god. Maybe he was an ascendant, but I never saw it mentioned so I was curious.

My memory is faulty. Is it actually mentioned that he "claimed dominion over nothing"? I would imagine that a Jaghut Tyrant like Raest would have claimed dominion over everything.

Being "venerated as a god" is being a god, no buts, it's a power source. The Elder Gods as far as we understand it, did not control any of the bigger holds directly. They used them as a power source, and they had some kind of personal warrens, but they gained a lot of strength from the worship and sacrifice. Even if forced to do it by Raest, could have gained strength from forcing Imass, Barghast, Trell, etc worshipping him.

Even if this was not the case, just look at his power displays in GotM, most likely Raest didn't even need worshippers, he was himself so strong that he was like a god in his potential.

Personally I don't think the god status thing matters. He's a Jaghut Tyrant.

EDIT: I think Raest may very well have been capable of lending out power to a worshipper. Think the Crippled God as an example of the type of God he could have been.

Vesper, on 04 April 2010 - 08:11 PM, said:

Without trying to perpetuate a 'who'd win' discussion, I would bring up that Rake had blasted the hell out of Raest with his Kurald Galain sorcery/dragon breath to the point that Raest was only held together by his Omthose Phellak (spelling? hah) warren. Then he possessed a bunch of people in Darujhistan and Quick Ben and Hedge blasted him apart. Remember? Silanah and other Eleint soletaken took to fighting Raest first, then were relieved by Rake when he veered into his draconic form that dwarfed even Silanah.

Like mentioned above. Rake and Raest never met.

The damage Raest took, and his soulshifting, is not a sign of weakness rather it displays just how scary Raest was/is. His physical body was wrecked and he still kept on moving. When his body was destroyed he simply took a new body. His strength did not diminish. He was not hampered or hurt by it. He was unstoppable.

I sincerely doubt that Rake could have taken the same kind of punishment as Raest did.

Vesper, on 04 April 2010 - 08:11 PM, said:

Which, my point is, came about when Rake fucked him up. I wonder, however, if it would have been Rake's ass being handed to him with Raest in possession of his Finnest, and what rammifications that would have on the notion that the 'new players' are a match for the 'old players', which is the issue that had confronted everyone when Silverfox's intention to release the Imass became apparent. This is the crux of my question, not a 'who would beat up who' competition, because we all know it would be Icarium destroying everything in a rage before Karsa Orlong rips his head off from behind.

Raest fully powered, or any top level god for that matter worth his salt, is as scary as Icarium is. The difference is that the gods are not insane and they don't wander the earth. The gods are capable of being every bit as destructive as Icarium (in NoK it is mentioned that Tyrants could crush continents) but they stay in their realms because stepping foot on Wu is an invitation for disaster.

Why Icarium was never bound or killed is anyones guess, most likely it is just too difficult and dangerous, so the gods just lets him wander around destroying cities rather than risk their own hide.

Vesper, on 04 April 2010 - 08:11 PM, said:

Aptorian, on 04 April 2010 - 08:11 PM, said:

Vesper, on 04 April 2010 - 08:11 PM, said:

So why would people think that all the potential allies in the world would be too much?

I admit I don't understand what you mean here.

See above.

What?

Vesper, on 04 April 2010 - 08:11 PM, said:

Raest wanted to exert his will over subjects, and the best way to have done that would have been to take command of a Hold... but he didn't, and I think that's really strange.

What makes you think that he didn't? There are lesser, not so well known houses in the Deck of Dragons, it would figure that is also lesser known tiles in the old deck. Maybe Raest has an inactive one in the Ice Hold or an unaligned one.

EDIT: Have to be careful with references to later books than MoI I notice.

This post has been edited by Aptorian: 04 April 2010 - 09:05 PM

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Aptorian, on 04 April 2010 - 08:53 PM, said:

Sillanah is probably somewhere around the equal of Rake in size and draconic strength, but Rake has much more up his sleeve than just being a big evil dragon.

No, Rake is bigger than Silanah. Its stated in GotM when he first veered that he dwarfed even her. And she was about twice the size of the other Andii soletaken.

[MTS]

Vesper, on 04 April 2010 - 08:11 PM, said:

MTS, on 04 April 2010 - 01:00 PM, said:

Raest never fought Rake, he got hacked up by Tool in the dreamtime then blowed up by QB and Hedge. If he did though, you could bet he'd be draggin' chain right now.

Question mark?
Was the battle on the plains outside Darujhistan not between Rake, in his soletaken form, and the recently wakened Raest? It was my understanding that Tool and Lorne released Raest to create a situation of mutual destruction between Rake and Raest, removing the Tiste Andii lord from the picture so the Malazan army could conquer Darujhistan. I know that Raest went and possessed a bunch of people, but that was only after he had a running battle with Rake close enough to the free city. I know that the Galayn Lord fight came after, but I'm talking about the huge fight that made all the mages in Darujhistan sick from miles away.

As has been mentioned, that was Silanah (the red one) and 4 Tiste Andii Soletaken black dragons. Rake only veers to fight the Galayn Lord after talking to K'rul on the belfry.

Quote

MTS, on 04 April 2010 - 01:00 PM, said:

As for whether he would beat him...I don't want to turn this into a ho'd win ('cos we all know the answer , but I reckon it's a safe bet. We have evidence of how badass this guy is. Dragons and EGs live in fear of him. He commands the respect of everybody, and you can bet your sweet ass Gothos would share his ashcakes with him. But we're getting off topic. T'lan Imass armies aren't just walking skeletons with long bones and big ass swords. The strongest part of a TI army are the Bonecasters. They can go toe-to-toe with the best mage-wise, and could have handled him (in fact, they did). What they mean by too much I think is the politics behind it all. Get too many conniving, crafty Ascendants in on a plan and you can be sure someone will fuck shit up for their own advantage. Even Brood and Rake go behind each other's back, and those guys are tighter than Brokeback.

I understand the power of the Bonecasters, but, if we go back to the start of MoI, we learn that it took a pragmatic alliance between the T'lan Imass and the Jaghut to bind Raest, meaning that the Bonecasters and the Jaghut separately were not enough. With the T'lan Imass armies now scattered around the world (including embroiled in Lether as of MoI) it seems more and more unlikely to me that, according to the point I was trying to make, the 'new players' that have risen are not a match for the old powers, unlike what is implied in MoI.

'Raest grunted. 'In this age there are none who can defeat me.'
The figure laughed, a low rumble. 'You are a fool, Raest. In this age even a mortal can kill you. The tide of enslavement has reversed itself. It is now we gods who are the slaves, and the mortals our masters - though they know it not.''
In GotM it's stated that the new powers are indeed enough.

Quote

Aptorian, on 04 April 2010 - 01:22 PM, said:

Vesper, on 04 April 2010 - 08:26 AM, said:

Had Raest succeeded in getting his Finnest, could Rake have possibly beaten him?

This is a ho'd win type question that is hard to guess the outcome off and will always end with the conclusion that Wolverine wins. If you do a search on the topic you should find plenty of old discussions on the topic.

One problem lies in the fact that GotM is a bit off in it's portrail of characters, their strengths and what is possible to do with magic compared with the rest of the series... or at least it seems that way. It's possible that Raest in GotM is portrayed as being stronger than he should be or that Rake looks weaker than he should.

But going by Rakes own assessment of such a clash, it sounds very likely that Raest could win.

Clashes between Ascendants/Gods often don't pan out like we expect in the books, very rarely do the power players actually use actual "destructive force" to take each other out, rather the clashes are quick and very physical or there's some trickery involved.

I personally think that if it was a fair fight with weapons, on a side street in Darujistan, Rake would slice and dice Raest, if it was a contest of magical strength, on a big plain, fair odds, then Raest would obliterate Rake.

Without trying to perpetuate a 'who'd win' discussion, I would bring up that Rake had blasted the hell out of Raest with his Kurald Galain sorcery/dragon breath to the point that Raest was only held together by his Omthose Phellak (spelling? hah) warren. Then he possessed a bunch of people in Darujhistan and Quick Ben and Hedge blasted him apart. Remember? Silanah and other Eleint soletaken took to fighting Raest first, then were relieved by Rake when he veered into his draconic form that dwarfed even Silanah.

'Her [Silanah's] master awaits your arrival, Jaghut, but he waits in vain and for this you should thank us. He would deliver a kind of death from which there is no escape, even by such a creature as you.'
Nowhere did Rake fight Raest.

Quote

MTS, on 04 April 2010 - 01:00 PM, said:

Vesper, on 04 April 2010 - 08:26 AM, said:

...also, on another note, why the hell didn't Raest ascend and become a god of some ancient hold? He obviously had the power, and:

Spoiler

other Jaghut, like Hood, seem to have done it

With the power of a hold at his command, he would have potentially been able to sway a vast majority of the pantheon with only a fraction of his weight.

It's a pretty safe bet to guess that Jaghut Tyrants in fact are Ascendants. Raest probably was a god in his time, worshipped by the lesser mortal races. That is part of why the T'lan Imass are so nasty, they attack any kind of tyrant or false god, because when they were children, Jaghut, Dragons and cruel Elder Gods toyed with them.

An ambitious, power hungry ascendant, no matter how strong, as a God of a Hold or any other kind of important power source would not be tolerated by the rest of the Pantheon. They would turn upon him and tear him to pieces.

As I brought up earlier, Raest was not really a god, just venerated as such by the victims of his cruel games. In regards to the gods turning on Raest... why just him? Why not

Spoiler

Hood

or other powerful ascendants?

Raest wanted to exert his will over subjects, and the best way to have done that would have been to take command of a Hold... but he didn't, and I think that's really strange.

'He [Raest] fashioned an empire of sorts, bereft of cities yet plagued with the endless dramas of society, its pathetic victories and inevitable failures. The community of enslaved Imass thrived in this quagmire of pettiness. They even managed to convince themselves that they possessed freedom, a will of their own that could shape destiny. They elected champions. They tore down their champions once failure draped its shroud over them. They ran in endless circles and called it growth, emergence, knowledge. While over them all, a presence invisible to their eyes, Raest flexed his will. His greatest joy came when his slaves proclaimed him god - though they knew him not - and constructed temples to serve him and organized priesthoods whose activities mimicked Raest's tyranny with such cosmic irony that the Jaghut could only shake his head.
It should have been an empire to last for millennia, and its day of dying should have been by his own hand, when he at last tired of it.'

From the American Heritage Dictionary:

God:
2. A being of supernatural powers or attributes, believed in and worshiped by a people, especially a male deity thought to control some part of nature or reality.
4. One that is worshiped, idealized, or followed: Money was their god.
6. A powerful ruler or despot.

That's three definitions right there that show Raest was in fact a god. And in this world being venerated does in fact make you a god. See

Spoiler

Iskar Jarak, Dassem Ultor and T'riss, among others

As for your Ascendants comment, they don't just turn on anyone. Hood is a relatively benign Ascendant without the pathological need to dominate and swing his dick around like Raest. He's not upsetting the balance of power, he plays by the 'rules' as it were. It's the same with virtually everyone else. For an example of when they have done it...

Spoiler

Scabandari Bloodeye, and more recently, the Crippled God.

This post has been edited by MTS: 05 April 2010 - 03:49 AM

[Sinisdar Toste]

just want to interject on the point of rake and raest never meeting. did you notice vesper, that the entire time raest was marching on the city, rake was dressed up in a black dragon mask, attending a fete at lady simtals estate with baruk? just wondering if your forgetting or actually missed this

[The Seguleh 46th]

Maybe a bit off topic, but are the Azaths themselves entities of a sort? I know they have been woven in with the Holds/Houses/Wandering Realms throughout the series, but to think that Raest's Finnest held that much power to create its own Azath......wow! Powerful muthafucka there!

Getting back to my question, i was just wondering, since they are worshipped (maybe not worship so much as semse of duty) by the Nameless Ones, are they entities serving as prisons/justice versions of gods? I don't know, too much cough syrup is making me ramble here.....

[Aptorian]

If you've read up until around TTH and further, I recommend going searching for some discussions in later book forums regarding the Azath.

The Azath seem to have some kind of sentience, but not the kind that wants to hold a conversation with you. They seem to be a kind of semi-organic magical constructs, capable of birth and death, meant to bring order where too much power is active. Beyond that there probably a lot we don't know and understand about them except for the fact that they seem to have very direct connection with the warrens.

[Vaine]

This might sound really noobish, but could someone explain to me just what a finnest really is? Is it just some random object in which a persons/creatures power is stored, or prisoned?

[MTS]

In a word, yes.

[haroos]

Aptorian, on 04 April 2010 - 05:17 PM, said:

Paran did not absorb it, he shifted into a shadow of a Hound and "distracted" it for a while, until the timing was right.

Paran became the Master of the Deck in the third book, but that doesn't have anything particular to do with Raests finnest.

well, in that case, why did he become the master of the deck ?
remember that MOI is in direct continuity with the first book.
so what happened next to make him so ?

[Aptorian]

To be honest I can't recall if this is first revealed after MoI, but it's a case of being the right person in the wrong place.

Somehow the Empire was setting Tattersail up to become the next "natural choice" for Master of the Deck. How on earth they were manipulating the House system into choosing her I don't know, it's not like the system seems sentient, but this was the plan.

When Tattersail "died" Paran somehow became next in line. I believe the probability of that happening was discussed by Dujek or Tay or someone. Basically because he was "connected" with her and because he had become a part of "the game" during the events of GotM, the Deck picked him as the new Master.

[haroos]

Aptorian, on 05 April 2010 - 06:14 PM, said:

To be honest I can't recall if this is first revealed after MoI, but it's a case of being the right person in the wrong place.

Somehow the Empire was setting Tattersail up to become the next "natural choice" for Master of the Deck. How on earth they were manipulating the House system into choosing her I don't know, it's not like the system seems sentient, but this was the plan.

When Tattersail "died" Paran somehow became next in line. I believe the probability of that happening was discussed by Dujek or Tay or someone. Basically because he was "connected" with her and because he had become a part of "the game" during the events of GotM, the Deck picked him as the new Master.

you make it seem as if ascendency is a mechanic response of "nature".
but it was his actions of holding oppon in thrall, and taking in shadow blood (influence) and his opposition to omtok phelack (the raest affair),
and traveling with in the sword's darkness.
it made me think that his involvement with all those warrens gave him some influence over them.

This post has been edited by haroos: 05 April 2010 - 06:37 PM