[D'rek]

Abalieno, on 24 July 2010 - 05:22 AM, said:

I was discussing this in the Tor re-read and there's some controversy.

My interpretation is here: http://www.tor.com/b...-4-and-5#117968

Basically I noticed that Kalam says that the other slaughter at Gerrom wasn't done by ST, but by the Claws, and Kalam, having been a Claw, could be reliable about this.

Why does this make more sense?

Because we know that Laseen/Lorn DO pick the trail and identify Sorry, so ST plan wasn't all that successful. There were good motivations for Laseen wanting to wipe the place after getting all possible clues, and it was specifically so that no one else ended on the same trail (and the Bridgeburners discover it).

But in the end it all lies in the "pigeons". They are the only sign that could reveal ST or the Claw (Topper most likely) fingerprint. Sadly it doesn't tell me much. (well, maybe the pigeons used their "claws"?)

Anyone knows what kind of warren Topper can use?

Can we get a reference to this QB/Kalam talking about it being a Claw job? I don't remember that at all.

[Abalieno]

Kalam's voice rumbled beside her, 'Something ugly happened there at around the same time. It's been buried pretty deep, but the Adjunct became involved, and a Claw came in her wake and silenced damn near everyone in the city guard who might have talked. I made use of old sources, scrounged up some odd details.'
'Odd,' Quick Ben said, 'and revealing, if you know what you're looking for.'

That's rather explicit, I think.

And my own theory seems to explain lots of things better.

[worry]

I'm not sure I like the phrase "claw job".

[ansible]

Abalieno, on 24 July 2010 - 06:08 PM, said:

Kalam's voice rumbled beside her, 'Something ugly happened there at around the same time. It's been buried pretty deep, but the Adjunct became involved, and a Claw came in her wake and silenced damn near everyone in the city guard who might have talked. I made use of old sources, scrounged up some odd details.'
'Odd,' Quick Ben said, 'and revealing, if you know what you're looking for.'

That's rather explicit, I think.

And my own theory seems to explain lots of things better.

I noticed this reference to the Claw's work as well, and I think you might be right.

Gardens of the Moon, Tor MMPB, p. 32 said:

Swollen faces with coin-dull eyes stared up from the shadows; the faces were blue, as of men suffocated. Paran looked down at one of the soldiers. "Not a healthy thing," he muttered, "wearing these uniforms these days."

A conjuring of birds to keep mocking vigil. Dark humor's not to my liking anymore, I think.

So it seems to me that they were suffocated somehow, and then the birds were summoned. "To keep mocking vigil" doesn't sound like they were the cause of death, but rather to keep "vigil" afterward.

[Furion]

I just reread this part in GoTM yesterday along with the rest of the first half of the book. I don't see how the murders in the village covers any tracks. In fact, I see this as a huge plot hole unless I'm severely misunderstanding something.

Think about it. The Empire must keep records of all its recruits, yes? Otherwise you can't even keep a functioning army.

If Cot/Shadowthrone kills these guys, the records of her enlistment still exist. The records can point Lorn/Paran directly to wherever Sorry is stationed. If Shadowthrone/Cot destroy the records, what is the point of telling this guy that she wants to be stationed under Dujek? More importantly, without records then Sorry isn't even a recruit, and will just be tossed out.

Most importantly, Lorn/Paran already know to look for a recruit who enlisted in Itko Kan, either an older man or a younger girl.

It seems to me there is no reason why it took 2 years to find her.

This post has been edited by Furion: 24 July 2010 - 11:53 PM

[D'rek]

Well, maybe. I can't see Gerrom even having city guards, but I suppose anything is possible. Then again it could just as easily be that the Claw silenced guards so they wouldn't talk about the strange magic-pigeon murders, even if those were committed by ST.

Furion - as you'll see in later books, a lot of old men and young girls enlist in the Malazan forces. Itko Kan is a big city overseeing a whole province and the recruiting drive there would've brought in recruits from across the province. The murders at Gerrom prevent Lorn/Paran from having a description beyond "Young girl/Old man", so they can't easily narrow it down. And lastly, Lorn said they would deliberately go slow to avoid arousing Cotillion's suspicions, not to mention going after Sorry once she's on another continent is a good idea for the Empress' safety...

[Furion]

D, on 26 July 2010 - 03:57 PM, said:

Well, maybe. I can't see Gerrom even having city guards, but I suppose anything is possible. Then again it could just as easily be that the Claw silenced guards so they wouldn't talk about the strange magic-pigeon murders, even if those were committed by ST.

Furion - as you'll see in later books, a lot of old men and young girls enlist in the Malazan forces. Itko Kan is a big city overseeing a whole province and the recruiting drive there would've brought in recruits from across the province. The murders at Gerrom prevent Lorn/Paran from having a description beyond "Young girl/Old man", so they can't easily narrow it down. And lastly, Lorn said they would deliberately go slow to avoid arousing Cotillion's suspicions, not to mention going after Sorry once she's on another continent is a good idea for the Empress' safety...

If the records of the enlistment exist, they know exactly where she's going. If they don't exist, she's not even a recruit and can't even be part of the army. There's still the plot hole there.

[D'rek]

Furion, on 26 July 2010 - 04:13 PM, said:

D, on 26 July 2010 - 03:57 PM, said:

Well, maybe. I can't see Gerrom even having city guards, but I suppose anything is possible. Then again it could just as easily be that the Claw silenced guards so they wouldn't talk about the strange magic-pigeon murders, even if those were committed by ST.

Furion - as you'll see in later books, a lot of old men and young girls enlist in the Malazan forces. Itko Kan is a big city overseeing a whole province and the recruiting drive there would've brought in recruits from across the province. The murders at Gerrom prevent Lorn/Paran from having a description beyond "Young girl/Old man", so they can't easily narrow it down. And lastly, Lorn said they would deliberately go slow to avoid arousing Cotillion's suspicions, not to mention going after Sorry once she's on another continent is a good idea for the Empress' safety...

If the records of the enlistment exist, they know exactly where she's going. If they don't exist, she's not even a recruit and can't even be part of the army. There's still the plot hole there.

Yes, they do know where teenage-fisher-girl #92 is going. Too bad they researched each one in numerical order.

[Furion]

D, on 26 July 2010 - 04:21 PM, said:

Furion, on 26 July 2010 - 04:13 PM, said:

D, on 26 July 2010 - 03:57 PM, said:

Well, maybe. I can't see Gerrom even having city guards, but I suppose anything is possible. Then again it could just as easily be that the Claw silenced guards so they wouldn't talk about the strange magic-pigeon murders, even if those were committed by ST.

Furion - as you'll see in later books, a lot of old men and young girls enlist in the Malazan forces. Itko Kan is a big city overseeing a whole province and the recruiting drive there would've brought in recruits from across the province. The murders at Gerrom prevent Lorn/Paran from having a description beyond "Young girl/Old man", so they can't easily narrow it down. And lastly, Lorn said they would deliberately go slow to avoid arousing Cotillion's suspicions, not to mention going after Sorry once she's on another continent is a good idea for the Empress' safety...

If the records of the enlistment exist, they know exactly where she's going. If they don't exist, she's not even a recruit and can't even be part of the army. There's still the plot hole there.

Yes, they do know where teenage-fisher-girl #92 is going. Too bad they researched each one in numerical order.

Fair enough.

[HiddenOne]

D, on 26 July 2010 - 04:21 PM, said:

Yes, they do know where teenage-fisher-girl #92 is going. Too bad they researched each one in numerical order.

Furion, on 26 July 2010 - 04:28 PM, said:

Fair enough.

Don't you hate it when that happens?

[Furion]

HiddenOne, on 26 July 2010 - 07:57 PM, said:

D, on 26 July 2010 - 04:21 PM, said:

Yes, they do know where teenage-fisher-girl #92 is going. Too bad they researched each one in numerical order.

Furion, on 26 July 2010 - 04:28 PM, said:

Fair enough.

Don't you hate it when that happens?

Hatred with a passion.

[Captain Awesome]

I thought it was basically stated that Topper did it in his 'doing a favor for Lorn' statement when he meets Paran outside the town and then again when Paran is arguing with Topper on the ship at sea about it again too. It needed to be hushed because the Empress doesn't want the slaughter, especially by anyone who could connect it with the Hounds of Shadow, to get out to the public its - why Lorn tells Paran that nothing unusual happened here before it gets repopulated by others.