[Verjigorm]

First off, I had a blast with MT. During the previous books, I had at least one, sometimes more, povs that didn't interest me so much. MT provided not a single pov that left me cold/uninterested and alone this achievement puts it on level with my favourite book (HoC) so far.

Apart from that, I was surprised about how real-world-political the novel was. The part about why wars are fought, the whole Lether economy based on debt and money and many more or less subtle comments are clearly related to/inspired by actual real world happenings around the time SE wrote the book.
I also liked the 2 brother groups. The Sengar brothers had a great dynamic that shifted a lot during the novel, whereas the Beddict brothers acted as our windows in Lether and -also apart from each other- in the end they got a bit closer in understanding each other.
Outstanding in all of this were clearly the great dialogues between Tehol and Bugg. The even outplayed my comic relief favourite so far, Iskaral Prust.
There are so many other great things, but I don't want to bore you and I fear that I have so many questions that my review part will come a bit short. So, let's get into it.

1. Seren Pedac

I don't know where to start. As far as I understood -by what the wraith encountered on the journey to the Hiroth village pointed out fe- she has a very important role to play. For the whole book, she felt like an ascendant, who forgot that she is one. On the other hand, there are very human parts of her, where I have the feeling that she is just that, a human. I'm really confused and intrigued by her.

The owl in her house: Is it the same owl that we see in the beginning of the book?
The chair in her house: Is this a throne of a hold/house? When she sits down, I was thinking that it was the throne of death, maybe related to the new Hold of Death.
The ritual with the crimson guard mage: Is it really a ritual or just a grief technique and the mage assumes that she is only able to really grief, when she is convinced that it is some kind of ritual?
Her ending: Does she (or Trull or Fear) really know what they are doing or are they just tools of destiny acting out purposses that were predetermined for them?

2. Menandore and her sisters

I saw them everywhere and in the end, none of them was mentioned. Shand, Rissarth and Hejun...a first guess of mine. Is Seren one of them? Is the woman who holds Silchas Ruin back underground one of them, maybe the sister that was dragged by the other two?

I have no clue, so the question would be like: Will we get a better understanding of the 3 sisters in a later book and will their current identities (if they have one) be revealed?

3. Shand, Rissarth and Hejun

Yay, them again. If they aren't related to the 3 sisters, who are they? SE wouldn't go through all the effort in introducing them, just to leave them on a ship without a real closure. So, I guess there is a RAFO related to them?

4. Kettle

??? There is a bit Fokrul Assail in her, apparently from the one that is shown Udinaas in the Ice -as I already read in another post here. Then there seems to be the child that was killed (her body) and another entity. The one, who watched her burial from the outside. All of them could be quite old. So, to get to a question:

Will there be more info about her or do I have to puzzle with the info I already have?

5. The child of Udinaas and Menandore

WTF? Is it just me, or was the child introduced with the surname Elalle? As in Shurq Elalle? Could this mean that Menandore and Shurq Elalle are related somehow?

6. Same dream world, different surname

The T'lan Imass inside the dream world bears the name of "Chole". Is he related to Pran Chole?

7. The Nerek

What actually happened to them? As I understood it, Mayen welcomed them, thus sanctifying the ground they occupied. This -somehow- brought back their goddess, who protected them from the Letherii mage attack on the Hiroth village. She also -somehow- managed to get some Nerek into Letheras to kill Hull. A lot of effort, just to kill one Letherii, who went from a path from their point of view.

Will there be more about the Nerek, their goddess and her motives in later books?

8. Mayen

Who slipped her the knife? Why did she run away - drugs or to get away from Rhulad?

9. Gerun Ebberict

Who killed Gerun Ebberict? I understood the description of some half Nerek, half Tharthenal, but what was he doing there, who is he and what was his motive?

10. The Rat catchers guild

I got this right? Most of them are not "people", but just rats with an illusonary spell on them, except for Ormly, Rucket and one other. By the way, is Rucket an illusonary cat?

11. Old Hunch forgothisname

There is only one scene with this guy, where he rambles things that I don't understand. Will he be explained later?

12. The white crow

How far is her involvement in all of the events? At the beginning I thought, she would get important, but I failed to understand the importance of her appearing in the beginning.

13. The female Tiste Andii for Withal

I don't get her purpose at all. A ring was thrown into the water. Her soul, close to release, mixed up with...yeah, with what? And in the end, she came up in the CG's realm without knowing why. Will she get a better purpose/role than curing Withal from lonlieness?

I think, these are the most important questions I had. I would be great, if some of you could find the time to shed a light on them or part of them. Thanks!

[HoosierDaddy]

Verjigorm, on 30 March 2010 - 04:30 AM, said:

First off, I had a blast with MT. During the previous books, I had at least one, sometimes more, povs that didn't interest me so much. MT provided not a single pov that left me cold/uninterested and alone this achievement puts it on level with my favourite book (HoC) so far.

Apart from that, I was surprised about how real-world-political the novel was. The part about why wars are fought, the whole Lether economy based on debt and money and many more or less subtle comments are clearly related to/inspired by actual real world happenings around the time SE wrote the book.
I also liked the 2 brother groups. The Sengar brothers had a great dynamic that shifted a lot during the novel, whereas the Beddict brothers acted as our windows in Lether and -also apart from each other- in the end they got a bit closer in understanding each other.
Outstanding in all of this were clearly the great dialogues between Tehol and Bugg. The even outplayed my comic relief favourite so far, Iskaral Prust.
There are so many other great things, but I don't want to bore you and I fear that I have so many questions that my review part will come a bit short. So, let's get into it.

MT is my 2nd favorite in the series as well.

Quote

1. Seren Pedac

I don't know where to start. As far as I understood -by what the wraith encountered on the journey to the Hiroth village pointed out fe- she has a very important role to play. For the whole book, she felt like an ascendant, who forgot that she is one. On the other hand, there are very human parts of her, where I have the feeling that she is just that, a human. I'm really confused and intrigued by her.

The owl in her house: Is it the same owl that we see in the beginning of the book?
The chair in her house: Is this a throne of a hold/house? When she sits down, I was thinking that it was the throne of death, maybe related to the new Hold of Death.
The ritual with the crimson guard mage: Is it really a ritual or just a grief technique and the mage assumes that she is only able to really grief, when she is convinced that it is some kind of ritual?
Her ending: Does she (or Trull or Fear) really know what they are doing or are they just tools of destiny acting out purposses that were predetermined for them?

She is not an ascendant. She is just a regular woman.

The Owl is part of a symbol of her storyline, yes. More to come on that.

Corlo is a master of Mockra. Mockra is magic of the mind and illusion. What he does is purge her of all the grief, anger, and pain that was caused by her being raped in one great gushing period, rather than her having to slowly go through the emotional and physical turmoil a person recovering from rape has to.

That last question is a bit... off. I mean, that's a pretty damned philosophical question there, isn't it? One could argue that the Errant had a say so once things got to Lether (as that is his aspect), or that they all willingly chose their actions. I fall on the side of they all willingly chose what they would do.

Quote

2. Menandore and her sisters

I saw them everywhere and in the end, none of them was mentioned. Shand, Rissarth and Hejun...a first guess of mine. Is Seren one of them? Is the woman who holds Silchas Ruin back underground one of them, maybe the sister that was dragged by the other two?

I have no clue, so the question would be like: Will we get a better understanding of the 3 sisters in a later book and will their current identities (if they have one) be revealed?

Shand, Rissarth, and Hegun are not Menandore, Sukul Ankhada, and Sheltatha Lore. Seren is a regular woman. Your last attempt is right. The two buried one in the Azath shortly after Silchas is deposited there by Scabandari. She is trying to use him to get out.

Quote

3. Shand, Rissarth and Hejun

Yay, them again. If they aren't related to the 3 sisters, who are they? SE wouldn't go through all the effort in introducing them, just to leave them on a ship without a real closure. So, I guess there is a RAFO related to them?

Randoms used to get Tehol moving into his schemes. They are unimportant, and that's why Tehol doesn't give them anything to do. He's the mastermind, they were merely his motivators.

Quote

4. Kettle

??? There is a bit Fokrul Assail in her, apparently from the one that is shown Udinaas in the Ice -as I already read in another post here. Then there seems to be the child that was killed (her body) and another entity. The one, who watched her burial from the outside. All of them could be quite old. So, to get to a question:

Will there be more info about her or do I have to puzzle with the info I already have?

There will be more info, but this remains somewhat of a forum question.

Quote

5. The child of Udinaas and Menandore

WTF? Is it just me, or was the child introduced with the surname Elalle? As in Shurq Elalle? Could this mean that Menandore and Shurq Elalle are related somehow?

The child's name is Ruud (Rud, one of the two) Elalle, yes. I think the rest of this is a RAFO. There are connections to be drawn later.

Quote

6. Same dream world, different surname

The T'lan Imass inside the dream world bears the name of "Chole". Is he related to Pran Chole?

Possibly, and I don't remember this part in particular.

Quote

7. The Nerek

What actually happened to them? As I understood it, Mayen welcomed them, thus sanctifying the ground they occupied. This -somehow- brought back their goddess, who protected them from the Letherii mage attack on the Hiroth village. She also -somehow- managed to get some Nerek into Letheras to kill Hull. A lot of effort, just to kill one Letherii, who went from a path from their point of view.

Will there be more about the Nerek, their goddess and her motives in later books?

Definitely more information. Rather immediately.

Quote

8. Mayen

Who slipped her the knife? Why did she run away - drugs or to get away from Rhulad?

Can't recall who slipped her the knife. Wouldn't be surprised if it was the Errant or the Warlock King, though. However, her reason for running away is debateable. Terrible withdrawals mixed with terrible grief and sorrow?

Quote

9. Gerun Ebberict

Who killed Gerun Ebberict? I understood the description of some half Nerek, half Tharthenal, but what was he doing there, who is he and what was his motive?

Earlier in the book, Bugg is approached by the family of the person you describe in his capacity of "The Waiting Man", who is a carer of the dead for the poor. Gerun had killed their mother, I believe, and this was payback for that.

Quote

10. The Rat catchers guild

I got this right? Most of them are not "people", but just rats with an illusonary spell on them, except for Ormly, Rucket and one other. By the way, is Rucket an illusonary cat?

3 members. Rucket, Ormly, and Bubyrd. The other members are illusions, and many of the rats probably are as well. Not all though.

Quote

11. Old Hunch forgothisname

There is only one scene with this guy, where he rambles things that I don't understand. Will he be explained later?

Most certainly. Old Hunch Abbot.

Quote

12. The white crow

How far is her involvement in all of the events? At the beginning I thought, she would get important, but I failed to understand the importance of her appearing in the beginning.

She? The White Crow is a symbol for Silchas Ruin.

Quote

13. The female Tiste Andii for Withal

I don't get her purpose at all. A ring was thrown into the water. Her soul, close to release, mixed up with...yeah, with what? And in the end, she came up in the CG's realm without knowing why. Will she get a better purpose/role than curing Withal from lonlieness?

She is seeking oblivion, like a T'lan would. She's been in a quasi-dead state for a very, very long time. She isn't yet totally dead, so as she is being dissolved (and in a state of crippled being), the CG catches her soul and builds her a body. And yes, there is much to come from Sandalath Drukorlat.

[Verjigorm]

Wow, those were really fast and really satisfying answers. Thank you very much!

Damn, I totally missed that Silchas was symbolized by the white crow.

And now I'm very intrigued by Sandalath Drukorlat. If I would subtract a Sandalath Dru from her, wouldn't she sound familiar...but that's just me, isn't it.^^

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Re: Sandalath. If you recall she mentions how her daughter left her to drink Tiam's blood in the wake of Anomander Rake. Yes, the daughter is Korlat.

As for Rud Elalle having the same surname as Shurq, Shurq mentions having a Meckros uncle. If you remeber Rud was grown by a man in a Meckros city, before it drowned and Menandore gave him to the Imass. 2+2=4

[Ozymandiac]

I'd like to hijack this thread for a small question of mine regarding MT. I had forgotten about it until I saw this topic.

Somewhere in MT, Seren Pedac acquires a spear (she found it somewhere I believe) and the others are all quite impressed by the spear, and seem to know it or its kind. If someone recalls this despite my vague and quote-less introduction, could you eleborate? I've never understood its origins.

[Ulrik]

To Hull - killing him was...reasonable. They welcomed him, respected and then he used his position and informations to enslave them. Yes, it was Ezgara and his petty merchants, armies, mages, but without Hull, it wouldnt be so easy. He betrayed them and with new power came revenge. I really disliked his changing extreme sides from "I serve Ezgara" to "I want to destroy Lether".

[Aptorian]

Hmm. A spear is found in RG, that she carries, don't remember one being found by her in MT.

But you might be confusing it with when Featherwitch and Udinass encounter those sleeping Imass?

[Ozymandiac]

Sleeping Imass? Damn, I need a reread.. But yes, you are correct, I mean the spear in RG.

[Aptorian]

Udinass and FW are on some kind of trip, I think they seperated from the main column of Edur or something. On a path they stumble upon a place where a lot of T'lan Imass are lying in the ground. FW uses her Tile magic and whisks them in to their dream warren. It's some kind of fragile memory fragment of Telan/the elder times in which the T'lan are still mortal and they guard some "gates of fire".

The meaning of it all becomes clearer in Reapers Gale.

[Ozymandiac]

Thanks for clearing that up, but I still don't know what the spear is 8)

[foolio]

Quote

8. Mayen

Who slipped her the knife? Why did she run away - drugs or to get away from Rhulad?

I think Feather Witch has POV where she recalls giving Mayen the knife, and she is quite pleassed at the results. It is Udinaas' knife but I think FW gives it to Mayen.

Another thing about the Tlan Imass, at one point someone comments that there are around 400,000 of them gathering quietly around Lether...strange...

This post has been edited by foolio: 30 March 2010 - 04:54 PM

[Sinisdar Toste]

Ozymandiac, on 30 March 2010 - 02:09 PM, said:

Thanks for clearing that up, but I still don't know what the spear is 8)

since this is the MT forum i will spoil this

Spoiler

the spear is an imass spear that is found in the ice of a jaghut ritual. there is some ambiguous hints to link it to the heart of gothos ritual, and that in removing it, seren dealt the death blow to the ice. this is mostly my impressions from the talk around it

foolio, on 30 March 2010 - 02:32 PM, said:

Another thing about the Tlan Imass, at one point someone comments that there are around 400,000 of them gathering quietly around Lether...strange...

do you have a quote? i can't believe i would have missed such a huge gathering.

[foolio]

[/quote]

do you have a quote? i can't believe i would have missed such a huge gathering.
[/quote]


I do not have one handy. But will look tonight. I want to say it is towards the beginning. I am guessing maybe it is Silchas talking to Seren but will have to verify. edit start here.....just checked that part, not there. Will keep looking.

Also,

Spoiler

the spear part happen in MT? I dont recall that...

This post has been edited by foolio: 30 March 2010 - 06:34 PM

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Quote

11. Old Hunch forgothisname

There is only one scene with this guy, where he rambles things that I don't understand. Will he be explained later?

Quote

Most certainly. Old Hunch Abbot.

I believe it is Old Hunch Arbat.

[D'rek]

[quote name='H.D.' date='30 March 2010 - 12:53 AM' timestamp='1269924838' post='744773']
[quote name='Verjigorm' date='30 March 2010 - 12:30 AM' timestamp='1269923437' post='744772']
[quote]
9. Gerun Ebberict

Who killed Gerun Ebberict? I understood the description of some half Nerek, half Tharthenal, but what was he doing there, who is he and what was his motive?[/quote]
Earlier in the book, Bugg is approached by the family of the person you describe in his capacity of "The Waiting Man", who is a carer of the dead for the poor. Gerun had killed their mother, I believe, and this was payback for that.

I don't recall Bugg acting as 'the Waiting Man' at that part, but yeah, Bugg meets an impoverished Nerek family at one end of the alley outside of Tehol's place. The grandmother of the family was killed by an angry Gerun Eberict. Among the family is a giant half-Nerek-half-Tarthenal (or something like that), named Unn. He kills Gerun Eberict when Gerun runs past their squalid hut at the end of the book. There's a tiny little bit more on this in RG.

[quote]
10. The Rat catchers guild

I got this right? Most of them are not "people", but just rats with an illusonary spell on them, except for Ormly, Rucket and one other. By the way, is Rucket an illusonary cat?[/quote]

3 members. Rucket, Ormly, and Bubyrd. The other members are illusions, and many of the rats probably are as well. Not all though.

Rucket's the chief investigator, Ormly's the chief catcher and Bubyrd's the guild's mage who creates all the illusions. They probably have more 'real' staff in lesser roles, but those are the top 3.
[/quote]




re: 400 000 t'lan imass -> I don't think it was that many. Maybe 40 000 or 4000... anyways it's Wither talking to Udinaas about the drifting dust and then FW comes up to Udinaas and demands that he take her back to the place they visited in his dreams (not the same as the Imass place - they haven't been there yet). She shoves a tile in his hand and they appear in the Imass place. Remember there's a destroyed Meckors city in there - that'd be the same one Shurq Elalle's uncle lived on and raised Rud Elalle for a couple weeks. Not the same as Withal's, though (unless you wanna ignore the timeline).

If you want to find the keep, try about 1/3 of the way in - while the TE are just newly on the move, before any major battle I think.

[foolio]

Quote

If you want to find the keep, try about 1/3 of the way in - while the TE are just newly on the move, before any major battle I think.

Thanks. I will look tonight.

[foolio]

Gentlemen, I have made a misstake. D'rek pointed me in the right direction, I found the passage, and it was 4,000 TImas. Whither is telling Udinaas about them. He also said they have NO Bonecasters...they are leaderless and do not respond to the wraiths.

Something I found interesting from the same page is that when the first empire started exploring they found the Jeck already on Letheran continent. I thought the Jeck were part of the first Empire ritual and thereby not antives to the continent. Maybe I am wrong, or heck, maybe Whither is wrong.

[Sinisdar Toste]

that could be the case, but (TtH spoiler)

Spoiler

Kallor recalls a battlefield strewn with the bodies of FA, humans, TTT (i think) and... Jheck! so they've been around at least as long as the FE, maybe longer

[Aptorian]

You're assuming that the battle didn't take place after the fall of FE, or at least during its later period, which it could have.

[Sinisdar Toste]

ah, i suppose your right. kallors empire does start out around the same time as the FE. maybe the jheck represent a succesful mass escape from the t'lan imass