[Ulrik]

It was really only for a few dozens hearthbeats (iirc) and one thing is all-in defend with spear and other duel where you want something more than just survive anther seconds...

[Gothos]

Yeah that's why I said someone actually really badass would've been able to do more.

[Ulrik]

Gothos, on 26 March 2010 - 02:31 PM, said:

Yeah that's why I said someone actually really badass would've been able to do more.

Ans that IMO why was Trull able to survive, although someone more badass (damn, who? Silchas? Trull is badass himself...not top badass, but his badassisness is pretty highly badass) would go into attack...and die:) Beliveve ubercrappy swordsman like me ) (Im something like Trull from the opposite side...))

[Silencer]

No, Trull is mortal. That's the difference. He has no magic to back himself, no immortal vitality, no ETERNITY of practice - hell, prior to Icarium he hadn't even fought that many serious opponents (compare Rake, whose life has been spent duelling demons, dragons, ascendants, soletaken, gods, champions, no doubt also many members of the Elder Races such as Jaghut, FA, K'chain), and considering one of Rake's seconds fought his way across ASSAIL, I think Rake would take down a raging Icarium in matter of minutes.

Icarium is terrifying because he can destroy cities with Rage, and Azath and suchlike. That does not speak directly to his one-on-one prowess at all. Mortals stand little chance against him as they just get blown to pieces without the appropriate willpower/determination by his rage storm. Anyone who does get close enough has their weapon broken by his rage-fuelled strength and his own sword's general uber-ness, plus they probably are nowhere near comparable to Trull in terms of skill either, amounting more to the likes of, let's say, a standard city guard. And when Iccy does get hit, his rage and general ascendancy means that it doesn't do what it would to a normal person.

Now, let's compare this to fighting Rake. More than enough willpower. Magic up the wazoo, that probably walks all over QB's. Skill beyond comparison (Traveller aside, it's already been stated how that doesn't show anything about his abilities, other than perhaps speaking in favour of them - the only other person he's fought that's considered close to him is Draconus, and that was off-screen...and he won). And then there's this: Dragnipur. Now, a normal sword or quarrel or brick might not take Iccy out due to his rage. He can take the punishment. Dragnipur EATS YOUR SOUL.

Oh, and Rake fought his way through enough Seguleh to reach the rank of 7th. On their own island. Then he got tired and left.
>.>

[Ulrik]

 Oh yeah, he just chopped to pieces Tlan Imass, I heard thats some bony loser guys:) Surely no proof of fighting capabilities... Trull is Knight of Shadows in warren of shadow, supported by Shadowthrone, uberhigh mage and is spearwielder defeated only by Silchas Ruin. And if someone in MBoF says "he is only a mortal"...IMO its for diagnosis...




But damn, I hate this stupid fanboyish arguing bout fictional characters where noone can compare nothing...and still got involved, ssstupid Ulrik! IMO Kruppe owns Rake...he would have smash his dragni-ass and prove me that Im wrong:)  (joke, without offense -  just to be sure, I have tendency to insult people without wanting to) 

This post has been edited by Ulrik: 27 March 2010 - 10:42 AM

[SpectreofEschaton]

Just something to think about, a bit meandering but I think it's relevant.

Facts:

1. Iron bars took out Rhulad so fast he fast he didn't even realize he killed an emperor.
2. The 5 Sereghal were beyond Iron bars, fairly definitively.
3. Silchas Ruin cut the Sereghal doubt in a matter of seconds, with no effort whatsoever.
4. Trull...somehow...didn't get wtfpwned by Silchas.
5. Trull likewise lived through not one, but two brief bouts with Icarium.
6. Icarium breaks T'lan Imass like kindling.
7. Icarium destroyed an Azath House (or at least seriously wounded it).

Presumptions:

1. Anomander Rake is a better swordsman than his baby brother, and is the equal of Dassem Ultor, who is better than Skinner, who is better than Iron bars.
2. Dragnipur is well and truly indestructible by any other weapon than the Hammer of Burn.
3. Being Knight of Shadow is less...efficacious than being the Knight of Darkness, Son of Darkness, Knight of the Dragon Hold, First Son of Mother Dark, Arch-Mage of the Tiste Andii, and the Black-Winged Lord. In other words, Trull got a power up; Anomander Rake IS power, on an almost completely different scale, allowing him to engage full-rage-mode Icarium without being expldofied.
4. A single wound from Dragnipur is enough to defeat even Icarium.

I'm sure there's some holes in that, but that's my logic for why Rake wins. Most of Icarium's advantages don't seem like they'd be terribly effective against him, which isn't to say I think Rake would win 100% of the time, but I'd definitely favor him in a potential match-up. The real problem is that we never see Icarium really face a truly great swordsman; we have no way of knowing how skilled he is at defending himself against a weapon like Dragnipur in the hands of someone like Rake. That Trull, with a wooden spear, was able to stand against him at all is remarkable, but I for one can't possibly in good conscience put him in the same league as Rake, and I think that if the Son of Darkness had been defending the First Throne, things would have went quite differently.

Though I suppose the real answer is that everyone else loses if this contest were ever to come about. Rake is stated to be able to throw around continent-vaporizing blasts of Kurald Galain in MoI, isn't he? Couple that with the KEEEEEEEEEEN and...bye-bye Malazan World.

[End of Disc One]

SpectreofEschaton, on 27 March 2010 - 12:07 PM, said:

Being Knight of Shadow is less...efficacious than being the Knight of Darkness

I've read that word countless times throughout the series and I still don't even know what it means.

[Ulrik]

End of Disc One, on 27 March 2010 - 12:57 PM, said:

SpectreofEschaton, on 27 March 2010 - 12:07 PM, said:

Being Knight of Shadow is less...efficacious than being the Knight of Darkness

I've read that word countless times throughout the series and I still don't even know what it means.

It means that when your "kings" clashes, you are collateral damage (but OK, Rake is little bit exception of this rule...well, he had his own Mortal Sword...pretty crappy,but had:))

[Sinisdar Toste]

Quote

ef·fi·ca·cious [ef-i-key-shuhs] –adjective
capable of having the desired result or effect; effective as a means, measure, remedy, etc.: The medicine is efficacious in stopping a cough.

of course the efficacy erikson usually talks about is not medicinal efficacy

[The Seguleh 46th]

Loving the debate here! Good points on the Rake beats Iccy scenario, but i gotta stick with my guns here. Trull DID hold Iccy back, but he also had a crapton of help, at least in versions of distractions for Iccy, as his rage does not center him on one person to destroy at a time. Maybe using my own point here, could be the way for Rake to win? It'd be a great battle either way.

Also, are we ABSOLUTELY sure that Rake actually let Dassem win? I got the impression that it was a fair fight....other than maybe the sword's weight/soulbattle hindering him a bit. I know Iccy even says in RG (could be wrong here, maybe BH) that Traveler/Dassem would be an even match for himself.....

[Sinisdar Toste]

im absolutely sure rake let dassem win. if rake won he would have fucked up his whole plan. and why would he do that? no, rake basically killed himself using dassem. poor dassem.

[The Seguleh 46th]

Sinisdar Toste, on 28 March 2010 - 09:30 PM, said:

im absolutely sure rake let dassem win. if rake won he would have fucked up his whole plan. and why would he do that? no, rake basically killed himself using dassem. poor dassem.

I'm probably wrong here (not any surprise...i'm used to it!), but wasn't Rake surprised to find himself in chains? I think his original intent was to free up Hood and the uber-badass BB to fight the Chaos. Otherwise, why not let Dassem just kill him right away? Also, maybe i did downplay Rake's abilities/swordsmanship a little vs. Dassem, as the weight and pressure of Dragnipur's souls was siad to be dragging him down, both pyshically and mentally.....i don't know. Don't really care much either way, as that wholy storyline still kicked a whole lotta ass in TTH!

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

The Seguleh 46th, on 28 March 2010 - 09:22 PM, said:

I know Iccy even says in RG (could be wrong here, maybe BH) that Traveler/Dassem would be an even match for himself.....

It's in BH, and its not that Traveller could have been an even match, but that he might win. Icarium senses Traveller's former presence on Drift Avalii and Veed asks if the person he sensed was "Skilled enough to unleash you?" to which Icarium replies: "Skilled enough, perhaps, to kill me"

So yea, Traveller's a badass lol.

[The Seguleh 46th]

WhiskeyJackDaniels, on 28 March 2010 - 10:34 PM, said:

The Seguleh 46th, on 28 March 2010 - 09:22 PM, said:

I know Iccy even says in RG (could be wrong here, maybe BH) that Traveler/Dassem would be an even match for himself.....

It's in BH, and its not that Traveller could have been an even match, but that he might win. Icarium senses Traveller's former presence on Drift Avalii and Veed asks if the person he sensed was "Skilled enough to unleash you?" to which Icarium replies: "Skilled enough, perhaps, to kill me"

So yea, Traveller's a badass lol.

I get that impression very much so myself!

[Sinisdar Toste]

The Seguleh 46th, on 28 March 2010 - 09:41 PM, said:

Sinisdar Toste, on 28 March 2010 - 09:30 PM, said:

im absolutely sure rake let dassem win. if rake won he would have fucked up his whole plan. and why would he do that? no, rake basically killed himself using dassem. poor dassem.

I'm probably wrong here (not any surprise...i'm used to it!), but wasn't Rake surprised to find himself in chains? I think his original intent was to free up Hood and the uber-badass BB to fight the Chaos. Otherwise, why not let Dassem just kill him right away? Also, maybe i did downplay Rake's abilities/swordsmanship a little vs. Dassem, as the weight and pressure of Dragnipur's souls was siad to be dragging him down, both pyshically and mentally.....i don't know. Don't really care much either way, as that wholy storyline still kicked a whole lotta ass in TTH!

i don't think so. as soon as rake enters dragnipur he starts the ritual. the only actual reaction we get from him is when he smiles at apsal'ara and catches the eye of the child-god. and he couldn't just let dassem kill him right away, he had to get dassem to kill him with dragnipur somehow. [/nitpick]

but your right, it was generally an amazing story. im just quibblering

This post has been edited by Sinisdar Toste: 29 March 2010 - 02:10 AM

[The Seguleh 46th]

Sinisdar Toste, on 29 March 2010 - 02:08 AM, said:

The Seguleh 46th, on 28 March 2010 - 09:41 PM, said:

Sinisdar Toste, on 28 March 2010 - 09:30 PM, said:

im absolutely sure rake let dassem win. if rake won he would have fucked up his whole plan. and why would he do that? no, rake basically killed himself using dassem. poor dassem.

I'm probably wrong here (not any surprise...i'm used to it!), but wasn't Rake surprised to find himself in chains? I think his original intent was to free up Hood and the uber-badass BB to fight the Chaos. Otherwise, why not let Dassem just kill him right away? Also, maybe i did downplay Rake's abilities/swordsmanship a little vs. Dassem, as the weight and pressure of Dragnipur's souls was siad to be dragging him down, both pyshically and mentally.....i don't know. Don't really care much either way, as that wholy storyline still kicked a whole lotta ass in TTH!

i don't think so. as soon as rake enters dragnipur he starts the ritual. the only actual reaction we get from him is when he smiles at apsal'ara and catches the eye of the child-god. and he couldn't just let dassem kill him right away, he had to get dassem to kill him with dragnipur somehow. [/nitpick]

but your right, it was generally an amazing story. im just quibblering

Alright, i'll buy it! So basically we got ourselves a stalemate then in the Rake/Dassem fight.....lol. I was just thinking why would Rake just leave a weapon as potent and world-shattering as Dragnipur behind (as inevitable via his death) for just anyone to claim? Are the seers/mages/prognosticators that spot-on in this series? What if Kallor or someone else of that nature got their hands on that weapon (i understand the Spinnock duel was to keep him delayed, but still)? Confidence abounds it seems! Also seemed a little careless on Rake's part.....tsk, tsk! Sigh.......

This post has been edited by The Seguleh 46th: 29 March 2010 - 06:24 AM

[Silencer]

That's the point. Rake is not careless. Baruk, Brood, Traveller, the Seguleh 2nd, the Hounds, Shadowthrone and Cotillion, Spinnock, hell, even Cutter...the man essentially made sure there would be more than enough protectors for the sword when he fell. A gamble, but remember that half of the scenes with Rake in that book are akin to: this guy is so far ahead of everyone else in mental capacity he's practically prescient, and is the one person I'd trust with everything. So you have to consider that, to his mind, due to his faith in his friends/followers, there was a 0 chance of the sword not getting whacked by Brood.

[Ulrik]

Yep, In this part I agree with Silencer - totally. He was master planmaker... Covergence of his power was so strong that it was pretty...not 0% chance of failure, but under 5%

But I still think that Dassem could kill Rake even without his need to sacrifice (or be slain...IMO they were equals). (wohooo, next round! Rather not:))

[Silencer]

Well, the thing is, arguing Rake vs Dassem is pointless. Rake obviously threw the match. He needed to die by Dragnipur, so he set that much up. The level of skill that demonstrates is debatable. So, short of Rake returning (and then could we say that it's the same matchup? Don't think so) and them having a proper duel to the death with unbreakable swords (whether Dassem gets Vengeance or not would be another variable), it's impossible to say who would *actually* win.

So, no more rounds there, I think.

[The Seguleh 46th]

Silencer, on 29 March 2010 - 07:12 AM, said:

That's the point. Rake is not careless. Baruk, Brood, Traveller, the Seguleh 2nd, the Hounds, Shadowthrone and Cotillion, Spinnock, hell, even Cutter...the man essentially made sure there would be more than enough protectors for the sword when he fell. A gamble, but remember that half of the scenes with Rake in that book are akin to: this guy is so far ahead of everyone else in mental capacity he's practically prescient, and is the one person I'd trust with everything. So you have to consider that, to his mind, due to his faith in his friends/followers, there was a 0 chance of the sword not getting whacked by Brood.

A pretty big gamble in my book, especially with the ST and COT angle. Plus he had to know the Sisters Envy and Spite were in town, and the Hounds of Light, etc....not exactly small potatoes to deal with there. And Brood wasn't there til the day after IIRC. Still, i do agree with you in that he had at least something worked out in advance, that does seem apparent after reading your post, but it just seemed a big risk to take IMO, if he in fact did throw the fight (i am also leaning towards belief in that regard now as well, albeit begrudgingly....lol) That and ALOT of faith in the people present that "defended" his sword.

This post has been edited by The Seguleh 46th: 29 March 2010 - 09:29 AM