[Powder]

You are all wrong. America ends in 2012. You heard it here first XD.

-Powder

[Shinrei]

Cougar, on 23 March 2010 - 04:25 PM, said:

Shinrei, on 23 March 2010 - 02:53 PM, said:

-That's all. I've said it again and again on different threads. Carry on ignoring it. It's much easier to say "you're heartless and cruel and fearmongering. Socialism works great in (insert country here)."

Why say that Shin? it's "sigh/rollseyes" all over again.

I think in this case I'm personally saying it's selfish and it's you who is ignoring the more important ideas. As I have said before, but it bears repeating, the question is not whether it can be achieved perfectly, but whether it can be tried as a way to better ourselves. Nobody on here has ever claimed that their state works perfectly, but it's the aspiration to create something that benefits the population more, not whether it can be afforded in $$s and ££s

I'm frustrated because no one has bothered to comment on the video I posted, and therefore has never addressed what my argument is founded upon. I am not talking about health care being just a bigger tax burden that we should bear for the good of the country. It is an added weight to a benefits system that will eventually end in a complete catastrophe. Notice I didn't say "might", I said "will". The way the numbers work, you could eliminate the entire defense budget TODAY and the numbers barely change for future debt projections. You could collect all the money that the wealthy have and throw it at our benefits problem, and it wouldn't help. The miracle of compounding is going to bury the USA.

If I didn't truly believe that public healthcare piled atop the other benefits to be paid in the US would be ruinous and make our future nightmarish, I wouldn't disagree with you thinking it's "selfish". But the truth is, I believe I am the one thinking selflessly in this regard. I would rather give up the personal short term gains of access for friends/family/myself to public health care in order to save the country from falling into a ruin that will cause millions of people in the next generations suffering.

By analogy, I could go out and just keep on spendin' the money on SUV's and high octane gasoline, which is the short term gain and pleasure, or I could ride my bike everywhere and do my part to keep the water and air clean as well as prevent global climate change catastrophe later.


In all seriousness though, Cougar, if you could please watch the video and respond, I'd like to hear your thoughts. Our top accountant is serious, and there isn't anyone really debating what he's saying. It's just an inconvenient truth that is being ignored.

[Shinrei]

Actually, I was thinking that the following is a better analogy.

If we accept man-made global climate change as fact, and then pass legislation which would give free humvees and gas credits to people who can't afford them, that would seem pretty dumb.

If we accept the fiscal time-bomb numbers as fact (which I do), and then pass legislation for more benefit programs like public health care, that seems to me to be the same level of dumb.


Granted, the analogy fails in that healthcare is more important than humvees, but it is the general idea of piling more on top of what is already failing that I'm trying to get across.

[maro]

Shinrei, on 24 March 2010 - 01:41 AM, said:

. The way the numbers work, you could eliminate the entire defense budget TODAY and the numbers barely change for future debt projections. You could collect all the money that the wealthy have and throw it at our benefits problem, and it wouldn't help. The miracle of compounding is going to bury the USA.

Bullshit.

Are you including all the black projects that aren't in the official Military budget.

[Jusentantaka]

maro, on 24 March 2010 - 03:36 AM, said:

Shinrei, on 24 March 2010 - 01:41 AM, said:

. The way the numbers work, you could eliminate the entire defense budget TODAY and the numbers barely change for future debt projections. You could collect all the money that the wealthy have and throw it at our benefits problem, and it wouldn't help. The miracle of compounding is going to bury the USA.

Bullshit.

Are you including all the black projects that aren't in the official Military budget.

oh please. We. do. not. have. alien. spaceships. And the government does not have some expansive code up that siphons all of the under-one-cent rounding whatevers on all financial transactions worldwide to fund these programs either.

All these "black projects" are comparably minor annual expenses next to the full military budget. the B2 project cost something like 45 billion over the lifetime of the project (R&D, testing and production inclusive) and is one of the most expensive ever. I suppose its possible the keyhole 13 project (spy satellites) will cost a trillion dollars when all is said and done, or something, but its stupidly unlikely. The DoD's black budget is only around $50 bn annually. Maybe 60 on the upside, and while probably a waste, it is not any sort of stupendous amount next to the money thrown around with the rest of the budget.

That said, I'd love to see some numbers on how the Defense budget vanishing would have no effect on the debt all the same.

Also: I spent (re: wasted) a good half hour finding the link to this video you're talking about Mr. Shinrei, and it has been removed. so...

This post has been edited by Jusentantaka: 24 March 2010 - 04:01 AM

[Nicodimas]

I'll talk economics if your willing to really listen. There is zero probability that I can prove it a single post as it requires tons of research. There is litterally so many different areas to explore what is going on and you have to start reading. I will be all over the place. This is just my opionion and guess what yours hopefully differs as it may seem nuts to you.. You may come up with your own idea on what needs to happen. That's excellent! Everyone should be allowed to decide the best answer and fix it in there own way. Apathy is a poor solution.

Zerohedge <Top 10 economic site on the net Woot!>
Market ticker are my places to start.

The Crash has already happened. Soon it will take form on a higher level.

The economy already collapsed. Over thirty years of fiscal irresponsibility with no cops protecting people from the market led to this. I can't really pinpoint where it happened, but it did. We will say somewhere between 97 and 2008. People have actively trying to put together exactly what happened, but it started before I was alive. Somewhere after WW2 maybe when we adopted the idea of credit for everyone and a fiat money system. It has never panned out. Many presidents who were against the idea of a central bank<Control!> died for this lincoln,jfk. We have a warped money system basically...Somehow in the last seventy years we have had a transfer of wealth upward. Which to me means the division of power is all messed up and I have ideas on fixing it, but they are far from being implemented as they are a little to independent then people are ready for. Food for thought in the 40's, it was the bottom 80 percent owning 80 percent of wealth. However in 1929 it was the top 20 percent owning 80 percent. See the problem there? Now since then we switched back up to the top 20 percent owning 80+ yet again as of 2008. This of course doesn't really prove anything, but is a great place starting to figure out how it happened. I am going to try to place a single tenet of the political system out as it easy to the blame game, but neither side really fixed this in the last seventy years, so the point is moot imo. Both parties are guilty of so many things if you look at each action seperately. To me it seems like we are being duped as the system lacks any true balance.

Thats a snapshot of what I have been doing research on for fun^

When will the crash happen who knows I can't even figure out what type of ___flation we are about to undergo, they both are the same result is the main point, but you can prepare for the in different ways. Since 2001 they have tried everything to paper over the core truth. America is not only out of money, but exported it's industries and sold itself out for cheap stuff. This crash has really shown to those that these jobs that have been lost do not really have a chance of coming back. What is America going to produce that other countries cannot for cheaper. Now some argue this will in itself cause a war where a country to defend itself will whe protectionism kicks in. So this will one of the types of possible collapses of America. A switch to empire strategy where to win the game they annilate other countries method of production through destruction of human capital and industry. That's the thought behind war as my limited time on earth btw. It's very improbable, but has happened throughout history. Watch for nationlism and protectionism as this will be sold to people under something else of course. Think on the country in the last decade and mutiply. This could also happen from a reverse standpoint a country could feel threatened and they could attack the United States due to there actions they took to support the banks the way they did. If people aren't prosecuted I don't think many European countries will trust the U.S. if they figure out how the big US banks used the countries for instance. OF course there leaders are just a guilty. People see advancement in the last couple decades, I see a old worn path that we keep getting caught up with as humans. IT would really be terrible to risk all this advancement on a broken system that is very firmly entrenched.

Ok sorry, I am way off kilter now. When does the collapse happen? Soon is the best I can say as at this point we are decade into them forgoing the impossible. This will just cause more misery in the end. IT could very well be 100 years, but the worse the crash it becomes the longer we way. The more likely it will lead to a world war. On pyschological level that is we blame others for what happened like what happened during WW2.

Option 2)Internal Collapse is the other form of collapse. It would be where we blame the other side. It would be terrible and figure it out from the above what happenes. We lose. So now that you know this you can see why I would want to starve the beast.

Ultimately, I would do what the forefathers did, learn what doesn't work and throw it out. Keep the constitution and steal the best elements in the last two hundred years from every society, socialist or capitalistic in nature as long as we can afford it. Usury is evil. Let's ban it and live in a simplier economic system. Flat tax and all that equally divided between the free states and central goverment. Rebalance the system completely. It would be something different a back to basics campaign where we take a look and fix everything by adding some new rights to the constitution, without modifing the old very important one. It gave us the kick in the right direction.
Oh well guess im just nuts. Fearful and all that.Lol I guess, but it makes complete sense to me.

Now explain to me why how the current progressivists theory pans out at the end of the day?

[maro]

A valid point:

[Sinisdar Toste]

Nicodimas, on 24 March 2010 - 04:01 AM, said:

I'll talk economics if your willing to really listen. There is zero probability that I can prove it a single post as it requires tons of research. There is litterally so many different areas to explore what is going on and you have to start reading. I will be all over the place. This is just my opionion and guess what yours hopefully differs as it may seem nuts to you.. You may come up with your own idea on what needs to happen. That's excellent! Everyone should be allowed to decide the best answer and fix it in there own way. Apathy is a poor solution.

Zerohedge <Top 10 economic site on the net Woot!>
Market ticker are my places to start.

The Crash has already happened. Soon it will take form on a higher level.

The economy already collapsed. Over thirty years of fiscal irresponsibility with no cops protecting people from the market led to this. I can't really pinpoint where it happened, but it did. We will say somewhere between 97 and 2008. People have actively trying to put together exactly what happened, but it started before I was alive. Somewhere after WW2 maybe when we adopted the idea of credit for everyone and a fiat money system. It has never panned out. Many presidents who were against the idea of a central bank<Control!> died for this lincoln,jfk. We have a warped money system basically...Somehow in the last seventy years we have had a transfer of wealth upward. Which to me means the division of power is all messed up and I have ideas on fixing it, but they are far from being implemented as they are a little to independent then people are ready for. Food for thought in the 40's, it was the bottom 80 percent owning 80 percent of wealth. However in 1929 it was the top 20 percent owning 80 percent. See the problem there? Now since then we switched back up to the top 20 percent owning 80+ yet again as of 2008. This of course doesn't really prove anything, but is a great place starting to figure out how it happened. I am going to try to place a single tenet of the political system out as it easy to the blame game, but neither side really fixed this in the last seventy years, so the point is moot imo. Both parties are guilty of so many things if you look at each action seperately. To me it seems like we are being duped as the system lacks any true balance.

Thats a snapshot of what I have been doing research on for fun^

When will the crash happen who knows I can't even figure out what type of ___flation we are about to undergo, they both are the same result is the main point, but you can prepare for the in different ways. Since 2001 they have tried everything to paper over the core truth. America is not only out of money, but exported it's industries and sold itself out for cheap stuff. This crash has really shown to those that these jobs that have been lost do not really have a chance of coming back. What is America going to produce that other countries cannot for cheaper. Now some argue this will in itself cause a war where a country to defend itself will whe protectionism kicks in. So this will one of the types of possible collapses of America. A switch to empire strategy where to win the game they annilate other countries method of production through destruction of human capital and industry. That's the thought behind war as my limited time on earth btw. It's very improbable, but has happened throughout history. Watch for nationlism and protectionism as this will be sold to people under something else of course. Think on the country in the last decade and mutiply. This could also happen from a reverse standpoint a country could feel threatened and they could attack the United States due to there actions they took to support the banks the way they did. If people aren't prosecuted I don't think many European countries will trust the U.S. if they figure out how the big US banks used the countries for instance. OF course there leaders are just a guilty. People see advancement in the last couple decades, I see a old worn path that we keep getting caught up with as humans. IT would really be terrible to risk all this advancement on a broken system that is very firmly entrenched.

Ok sorry, I am way off kilter now. When does the collapse happen? Soon is the best I can say as at this point we are decade into them forgoing the impossible. This will just cause more misery in the end. IT could very well be 100 years, but the worse the crash it becomes the longer we way. The more likely it will lead to a world war. On pyschological level that is we blame others for what happened like what happened during WW2.

Option 2)Internal Collapse is the other form of collapse. It would be where we blame the other side. It would be terrible and figure it out from the above what happenes. We lose. So now that you know this you can see why I would want to starve the beast.

Ultimately, I would do what the forefathers did, learn what doesn't work and throw it out. Keep the constitution and steal the best elements in the last two hundred years from every society, socialist or capitalistic in nature as long as we can afford it. Usury is evil. Let's ban it and live in a simplier economic system. Flat tax and all that equally divided between the free states and central goverment. Rebalance the system completely. It would be something different a back to basics campaign where we take a look and fix everything by adding some new rights to the constitution, without modifing the old very important one. It gave us the kick in the right direction.
Oh well guess im just nuts. Fearful and all that.Lol I guess, but it makes complete sense to me.

Now explain to me why how the current progressivists theory pans out at the end of the day?

Gotta say, i mostly agree with everything you say about economics. A central bank like the Fed is part of the reason for this mess, and its helped that divide between the top 20 and the bottom 80 grow. and usury is evil, in fact it used to be banned by the church, hows that for irony?

i think you actually propose a pretty progressive solution to the problem at hand. eliminating usury, simplifying the economic system and stealing from other ideologies. all the best civilizations steal their neighbours good ideas. it just makes sense. its funny that simplifying something could be seen as progressive but cripes there's a lot to learn from the past as well.

but you know, i think Obama might have looked at the economy, looked at healthcare, and decided it would be easier to attack the root problems of healthcare. a public option would be easier to get than a real fix of the economic system. hell healthcare is just one root of the economic problem

This post has been edited by Sinisdar Toste: 24 March 2010 - 06:16 AM

[Shinrei]

Maro, infrastructure and other such projects are well suited to the government taking care of them. No one here is arguing that roads and police forces should be privately maintained. Entitlement programs are another kettle of fish entirely.

Jusen, here's another linky:

[Cougar]

Shin, honestly I can't comment, because I can't verify the figures nor do I have the time to spend gathering the data that would be necessary. Yeah it looks grim, but there are ways and means and I just can not for the life of me see how major cuts in the money pit that is the defence budget wouldn't help, when a single bombing raid costs as much as a hospital wing.

The thing that strikes me is that the US pays very little tax compared to the average, or indeed any country of comparable wealth other than I guess Japan. Yet we don't see Norweigans or Danes protesting in the same manner. Sure they are a little richer, but Scandanavia is bloody expensive. What I'd be interested to know is what the effects of paying a comparable level of tax to say the UK would be. Because for me tax is essentially a cultural thing, it's not everyone's God given right not to be taxed, and people accept it in Britain, yeah sure they grumble - everyone wants more money in their pocket - but they get a good deal by my estimation.

Is the problem that the US has too vast an underclass that makes the burden on the rich disproportionate to other countries, is it that defence spending etc is far too high in comparison?

Also I think if we are going to discuss this seriously calling things 'entitlement' programs is rather redundant. Everything and anything provided by the government is an entitlement, weather forecasting is hardly a human right neither are roads. I'm sure there were protesters about government housing programs in the 1930s and I'm sure a glance at history will tell us that the same period saw outrage at FDR's 'socialist' policies. Shin seems to be using it in a perjorative sense.

I suppose my point is: it's an outlook that the US populace seems to have, the British don't think the same, we pay more tax, we get more back, the Danes pay more, arguably they get more. The problem I have is that I genuinely feel that by putting more into the communal pot, we actually get more back. I wish I could engage a little more in the hard figures, but it just isn't something I have the time or the inclination to do. In some respects I actually think were talking a little at cross purposes, I'm approaching it from an ideological standpoint, I've seen arguments like Shin's before, they were made in the 1945 election by the Conservative party in response to the creation of the welfare state, but despite a period of austerity in the post-war period, we had a good go at it and now it's pretty central to our state. I can't say how the US can make this work, but a look outside the US will show that the prophets of disaster have chimed this in every country where universal healthcare and extended welfare provision have been implemented.

[Nicodimas]

Good linkage Shin...At the current rate we will hit the new 14 trillion dollar debt cap in Octomber of this year. 300 billion a month of deficit spending a month. It's much closer than 2040, its 2017 technically that the interest is more than the taxes we bring in. Of course they are going to push that off a bit with this current inflation tactic.

Quote

I suppose my point is: it's an outlook that the US populace seems to have, the British don't think the same, we pay more tax, we get more back, the Danes pay more, arguably they get more. The problem I have is that I genuinely feel that by putting more into the communal pot, we actually get more back.

This is one of my zany ideas, but what about splitting up the balance between state and national. Making for a flat sales tax and voluntary yearly taxes that would be split up. Each taxpayer would be able to send to there representive how they want there taxes actually spent. This representive would then use that data to see what area need to be worked on. Educate people that if you give % percent of taxes bsaed on the laffer curve what they would get in return. Education would be divided up equally. All other areas would depend on the state and representives choice to spend it.These would be the only two taxes. If people are believed to be adults and responsible, I think the results would be amazing. Maybe to idealistic..

This post has been edited by Nicodimas: 24 March 2010 - 03:22 PM

[Cougar]

How about the government and anyone who cares to oppose them put forward proposals for the economy and how they want to run it and you vote for the one you want to run the country/state?

[Jusentantaka]

Ok ok ok. Can we -Please- stop the 'Scandinorsevegia' comparisons to the US? The populace of these countries just do not compare to any but a minority of Americans, in attitude, beliefs, perspective or governance. 'Why can't americans be like us/them' is just crap. A bit off the handle in light of the contents of this thread, but there you have it. Maybe its a bit of the straw-breaking-the-camel's-back.

Nicodimas, on 24 March 2010 - 03:22 PM, said:

This is one of my zany ideas, but what about splitting up the balance between state and national. Making for a flat sales tax and voluntary yearly taxes that would be split up. Each taxpayer would be able to send to there representive how they want there taxes actually spent. This representive would then use that data to see what area need to be worked on. Educate people that if you give % percent of taxes bsaed on the laffer curve what they would get in return. Education would be divided up equally. All other areas would depend on the state and representives choice to spend it.These would be the only two taxes. If people are believed to be adults and responsible, I think the results would be amazing. Maybe to idealistic..

Way too idealistic. You seem to be supposing that the average American people (whatever that means anymore) care enough and are educated enough through the present system to come up with reasonable, viable proposals to fix the current problems, rather than 'me me me me me!'. You have every right and ability presently, to send your representatives your thoughts and concerns about how monies should be spent, that only the middle upper class and above get their ideas put into action*, instead of every idea, from rich to poor being given equal weight, is a failing of the representatives alone.

*As we have the education, time, financial resources and -as a whole- connections to deliver reasoned proposals with a commensurate donation to the 'cause', the size of which determines how close to the top of the pile your ideas go.


As to the video: Yeah, the numbers are scaryish, and I always kinda liked Perot. Still, all he's doing is 'its bad, we need to fix it.' he's all smart and stuff and says we can fix it over twenty years. How does he want it fixed? Kill medicare and social security?

This post has been edited by Jusentantaka: 24 March 2010 - 05:30 PM

[Morgoth]

hold on, isn't it true that the two wars the US is embroiled in at this point are held outside of the military budget?

[Nicodimas]

Quote

Way too idealistic

Yea I thought so, but let me see if this logic works for you. If you balance the money coming right it would be very effectively and would end the debate of limited slavery in our country. Most people hear this argument presented as why should I pay my earned wages for someone else's entitlement. It is a completely justifible argument IMO as it forces a type of limited slavery on the person paying the wages. This is what bugs these people. It would take a leap of faith like switching to a all volunteer military did. Granted that example may be a fallacy..

We will do this process of volunteering taxes with a 5% rate. For every five percent you put in your vote would be mulitplied on where the money is spent. Everyone gets at least one. Remember these numbers are crunched and then the representative would effective budget the money accordingly.
So someone who puts 50% would get ten times the amount of pull that someone who puts in none. Now would this count for something or nothing is the question I would be intrigued to see.

This person that put in zero percent would theortically need to buy products and have more money to do so. If you hit this number correct you could still bring in the same amount on taxes. Except it is still volutary to that individual. It would also make sure we got everyone to pay taxes versus those that do not.

On a corporate level VAT would be institued and the taxes on the corporation would already hit before the buyers side. It would be something that wouldn't drive business from America by any means, by provide stable income. Certain industries like food would be exempt from

It's a semi clever way of getting people to pay taxes and for them to have more buy-in to the taxes. People would be represented by where the money is actually going...versus this feeling of nothing..

This would require a trust of the goverment to be placed in the people. If goverment started acting wrong they would feel it in there pocketbooks. If they are doing good they would get more money and support from the people.

[Obdigore]

And what kind of administration, and how expensive would it be, would need to be setup for this system to come into place?

The government would end up seeing what, 50-60 cents for every dollar brought in after the IRS (which is who I assume would run this?) removes their cut to provide money to their staff and to organize and double-check, and then respond to all the complaints, this sytem.

Then you also assume that Congress spends only the money they have to spend, which is sort of why we have this deficit in the first place.

How would you assure someone that their 10 votes because they put in 50% of their salary compared to the person who put in 5% and received only 1 actually worked? You would either A) have to make votes and salary contributions to taxes public, or assume those in power are not lying. Haven't you been campaigning for transparency in your government? Or was that Gem? You two run together sometimes.

How would this end the 'limited slavery' concept you brought up? Your 'slavemaster' has 10 times the amount of votes you do, while still making 10 times the amount of money you do, even after he 'voluntarily' gives up 50% of it.

@Morgoth - do you have a link or something?

[Jusentantaka]

@ Nico:

except this system would force people to either reduce the quality of life in some areas or be partly disenfranchised (if you can be partly, anyway) since the cost of living skews so wildly across the country. There are areas I (or husband) could obtain a job which pays exactly the same as we earn now, but would leave us able to maintain an identical quality of life even if we threw fifty percent of it in the fire. And if we lived in new york city, twenty five percent would pinch. Additionally, the wealthier can afford to pay a greater percentage in taxes than the poorer can without suffering for it, so they'd be getting more representation this way. If these disparities were corrected (how I'll be fucked if I know) it isn't an entirely bad idea.

As the country stands though, I am against Colonel Saunders, CEO of Plantation Inc. getting more of a say than I have.

Also, if you pay nothing, you still get the same say as someone who puts in 5%? errwha?

Quote

hold on, isn't it true that the two wars the US is embroiled in at this point are held outside of the military budget?

This is true (in part at least, some expenses are still drawn from the regular Defense budget). If this is in reply to 'black projects' they're very different, this money, at least barring fraud and fuckups, can be accounted for by the public, where a black project's finances are well classified until public release. (stealth project, spy satellites, spy planes, ect)

This post has been edited by Jusentantaka: 24 March 2010 - 07:41 PM

[Nicodimas]

Yup you guys gave me definitely something to consider. I really like the idea of this system though as it really strikes me as it could be fair if we got everyone involved. Obviously going the wrong way with certain parts.

Cost/Quality of life is the problem we are going to face with bailouts, when we have to bailout the states. People are going to be in uproar when they find out they are bailing out California and live in the midwest, etc..5-30 states are bankrupt as it stands now at this moment.

On transparency: If they got rid of usury, companies had one set of books it would make it easier. Having multiple sets of books is something this adminstration should curb. Getting rid of the credit system is the far harder than anything I have stated in this thread though. This would require people on all sides of the table to work together, versus taking it the same old grudge match. We are getting to point our country we gotta admit it isn't working like it should.

On budgets..transparency is needed, obviously if it doesn't endanger something like OPSEC. The goverment had been playing this game really poorly since World War 2. We just can't do everything and will have to decide with a limited budget <from the year before tax revnues-%percentage> as responsible adults we have to demand our country act the same. If we got rid of usury, credit system there would be less disparity a larger middle class. There will always be rich and poor. Finding a way to get the quality of life of the poor up should be sought of course, or at least give them a chance by restructuring the education system completely in America.

Sorry Jusen. I like Sweden's education system with a blend of capitalism and it could work well here. It would take some elements from a few different areas also. Ill go more into this later.

[Obdigore]

So is the health care reform that has been passed not made to increase the quality of life of the 'poor'?

Wait, which thread is this?

[Adjutant Stormy~]

To a degree, I actually oppose the increase of 'transparency' of government - primarily because the people are, by and large, petty, squabbling, ignorant whiners. Nitpicking is a waste of time. I care about the results, not the means.

Can we use a different term than usury? I mean, we're not sinning here.

Also - if you make no income, you can pay 50% of zero, and get 10 votes. Fail.