[maro]

Powder, do you actually believe in "Manifest Destiny"?

I still don't get how you think population differences are that much. One thing to consider is that as a member of the EU, if I'm in France or Germany etc, I get reciprocal Health Benefits and care.

As mentioned, the size of America is just reflected in Germany, France, UK as opposed to California, Massachusetts and Iowa.

Your point about ethnicity is also way off - Europe has as many different groups as the US does. "Can do" mentality is also a basic tenet of Conservatism and most European countries have had Conservative governments that were able to live with a nationalised Health System.

[councilor]

i find it vastly ironic that the Americans, who seems to fear their government taking away their freedoms, overwhelmingly supported legislation which did exactly that a mere few years ago.

[MTS]

Yes, but that was right after 9/11 and the mass hysteria that followed, so that they supported the bill is understandable.

[councilor]

On national, state supported healthcare, I don't see it as a matter conservatism or not. i see it as a sort of foundation for a nation, along with welfare. Isn't the whole points of a nation to provide and oversee the basic necessities of life for it's citizens? otherwise, why have the nation in the first place?

[Nicodimas]

Quote

Isn't the whole points of a nation to provide and oversee the basic necessities of life for it's citizens? otherwise, why have the nation in the first place?

Exactly why have nations in the first place at all. They just cause grief in the end as they will each have there own set of agendas that aren't truly in there citizens best interest. Our tech is still off from this though. Maybe, someday.. For now since I am stuck here not all pictures should be just looked at the short term. All pictures must be looked at in the longer term on top of this. If they can provide these qualities making sure the control is broken up then it is fine, but soon as these entitlements start transfering control up, then we got issues. Each time you provide a entitlement are you making the individual stronger or weaker in the long run should be the ultimate question. The belief should always be interdependence from the system. I don't have a problem helping people out just make the programs controlled at smaller level, then these massive seemingly uncontrol programs that nobody knows if the left is talking to the right type of stuff. They waste money, are able to stolen from like previous programs, and don't deliver the promissed results. Seems to me that I am just being taxed on S.S for instance at 12.4%, the money used elsewhere, and will probably never see how I paid into it.

It makes me question overall agenda of any "Social" Program...Whats the goals and why aren't you delievering on ones we got?

[Powder]

Im terribly sorry I thought THIS particular forum was for saying things like hey, here is my idea what do you think. Whats up with all of the hate? There is no reason to call a fellow poster lazy because they are ignorant of social political factors halfway round the world.

What do I know about Europe? Very little TBH. In HS we do not get European history outside of how it effects American history. In college I was no history major. Lastly in graduate school outside the history of the church, I have gotten no official European history. Pretty much everything you mentioned is new information to me. I still find it strange the Welsh or Scotts would hold onto national identities, as it would be like people from NY were a different nationality from people in PA. Seems kind of ridiculous to me, but I am not an expert in European sociology. Strangely enough I am partly Scottish, and English, and French, and German and Swedish, and Irish, and Cherokee Indian, and those are the ones that have a decent %! Yet I do not have the cultural experiences to distinguish any of these groupings, or make them meaningful.

The thrust of my previous post was simple, externally we may seem united, but internally we are driven apart by just about everything. Geographic locations and boundaries separate us, cultural boundaries, ethnic boundaries, political boundaries, and I would argue exponentially more so than anywhere else in the world, simply because the US has a more diverse population than anywhere else in the world.

I do think comparing the EU to the US is a much better comparison in some senses, and much worse in others. Geographically and Socially about the same, but Historically and Politically the EU is much more impressive than anything the US could muster. We fought ourselves once, Europe has been doing that for thousands of years--how you guys managed to get over that and unite is quite impressive. Or maybe my naivete is coming in again and the EU is not nearly as united as the US....

-powder

[Cougar]

Well apologies if you feel slighted Powder, but they were lazy comparisons/generalisation. If as you say, you don't know enough about Europe, then why make a series of assumptions and hope you are right? Of course the DB is for expression of your opinions, but we do allow some quite firm questioning and rebuttal and if you've just plain hung it out there in the hope that nobody has a better understanding than you do then I'm afraid you run the risk of being called.

It's all the more galling considering a previous history of well reasoned and patient posting in some of the far more inflammatory threads over in the Religion SF.

@Nico, for clarity I feel you are confusing State and Nation here. Perhaps 'Nation State' would be better. Politicians often invoke the idea of the nation as a sovereign geographical entity presumably to imply unity of sorts, but it's no more than a name for a grouping of people.

[Powder]

Cougar, on 27 March 2010 - 09:32 AM, said:

Well apologies if you feel slighted Powder, but they were lazy comparisons/generalisation. If as you say, you don't know enough about Europe, then why make a series of assumptions and hope you are right? Of course the DB is for expression of your opinions, but we do allow some quite firm questioning and rebuttal and if you've just plain hung it out there in the hope that nobody has a better understanding than you do then I'm afraid you run the risk of being called.

It's all the more galling considering a previous history of well reasoned and patient posting in some of the far more inflammatory threads over in the Religion SF.

@Nico, for clarity I feel you are confusing State and Nation here. Perhaps 'Nation State' would be better. Politicians often invoke the idea of the nation as a sovereign geographical entity presumably to imply unity of sorts, but it's no more than a name for a grouping of people.

I didn't know that I was so misinformed until you pointed it out. I was more pointing at the method as opposed to the content. I really was/am much more ignorant of EU than I had previously thought, I just did not expect to be 'called out' in that way on these forums. Perhaps something along the lines of, 'I see you do not fully grasp the dynamics of EU today' (insert your exact explanation), and then I could re-post with something along the lines of 'You know, you are right comments retracted' instead of digressing in this manner.

-Powder

[Nicodimas]

Multiple militias were raided by the FBI last night:

http://www.chicagobr...d-location.html
http://www.sanduskyr...13435821346.txt
http://www.wxyz.com/...OMUdtOLzvw.cspx




I guess these militia were actively calling out for a converage of sorts. Most Militia countywide took down there site and our having meetings today. The FBI have set up check points in these three states to reign these terrorist in.

http://deadlinelive....ultiple-states/
http://californiasta...a.yolasite.com/

[Lisheo]

To be honest, I sort of agree with the FBI right there. A bunch of people with guns meeting up tends to go badly.

[Nicodimas]

I am not going to repond to that at all. 2 million people are officially enrolled in militias across the country.

Intial reports are saying they were arrested with no-knock warrants* under the guise of looking for pipebombs and about 47 members over three states were taken. We will know tomorrow what they found. I'll reserve judgetment when I found out what they actually did. This* was able to happen under the patriot act as note.

Watch this for idea about a "militia". Since these guys were just moved into that category.


To Lisheo~ Good luck.

This post has been edited by Nicodimas: 28 March 2010 - 08:39 PM

[Lisheo]

While I don't agree with the Patriot Act, no flowery youtube video is going to convince me that an armed civilian militia is a good idea. I live in Ireland, and we've had troubles with so-called "armed civilian militias fighting for freedom before" (see: the IRA and UDF and such). There is a fine line between militias and terrorists, and it's a matter of opinion, really. In my opinion, anyone with a gun and ideals is dangerous.

EDIT: Also, the days of Hoover and a tyrannical FBI are over, really. What they do, is usually to protect the best interests of everyone. They are not a governmental organisation aimed towards "ending" freedom or anything similar to it.

[Jusentantaka]

Nicodimas, on 28 March 2010 - 08:23 PM, said:

Intial reports are saying they were arrested with no-knock warrants* ... able to happen under the patriot act as note.

Erm... you do know that this type of warrant has been issued since long before the patriot act, right? And this seems a completely bog-standard case of it too, not some 'becuz patriot act OMGZ!' bullshit. They're used in cases where the subjects of the warrant are likely to destroy evidence if the police alerted them. Drug dealers or militia, its the same law. **I do, however, know that the number of these warrants has increased in recent years, not sure if its due to the patriot act itself, or just the same absurd paranoia which saw that bill passed**

Of course, without knowing everything and seeing documents, and hopefully with more reputable sources than the wxyz comment page (I mean come on...), there's nothing to say to it. As much as I dislove militia, unless they have illegal weapons, or explosives, drugs, whatever, this won't get more than a little 'woo'.

This post has been edited by Jusentantaka: 28 March 2010 - 08:48 PM

[Nicodimas]

Quote

Also, the days of Hoover and a tyrannical FBI are over, really.

Only a decade and people forget about Waco,Ruby Ridge and Katrina incidents.It's cool, because these two things are remembered by a large portion of Americans. Especially ruby ridge:
http://reason.com/ar...h-at-ruby-ridge

Waco is much more controversial.

"The government maintains the fires were deliberately started by Davidians.[15][44] Davidian survivors maintain the fires were accidentally or deliberately started by the tank assault.[45][46] As the fire spread, Davidians were prevented from escaping; others refused to leave and eventually became trapped. In all, only nine people left the building during the fire.[15][44]

The remaining Davidians, including the children, were either buried alive by rubble, suffocated by the effects of the fire or shot. Many that suffocated from the fire were killed by smoke or carbon monoxide inhalation[44] and other causes[44] as fire engulfed the building. Footage of the incident was being broadcast worldwide via television. In all, 75 died (50 adults and 25 children under the age of 15) and nine survived the fire on Apr 19 (on Feb 28 five had been killed in the initial ATF raid and buried on the grounds, one killed by ATF after the raid while returning to Mt. Carmel and 35 had left during the FBI standoff).[44]"
-Source Wiki.

Quote

In my opinion, anyone with a gun and ideals is dangerous

Wow scariest comment I have read in a long time. Don't really know what to say on that one and don't really want to flame you as those are your beliefs:

Quote

Sociologist Jim Aho, author of The Politics of Righteousness: Idaho Christian Patriotism, recently told a Coeur d’Alene newspaper that "the big myth about these people is they are essentially evil." Through years of research and interviews, Aho found that members of "patriot" groups weren’t unusually inclined toward violence, nor were they particularly socially isolated. Contrary to stereotypes, they were about as well educated as their neighbors. Aho said his findings surprised him, but "on the whole, I found these people pretty indistinguishable," apart from their "bizarre and unique" beliefs.

This post has been edited by Nicodimas: 28 March 2010 - 09:45 PM

[maro]

Powder, on 28 March 2010 - 03:40 AM, said:

I didn't know that I was so misinformed until you pointed it out. I was more pointing at the method as opposed to the content. I really was/am much more ignorant of EU than I had previously thought, I just did not expect to be 'called out' in that way on these forums. Perhaps something along the lines of, 'I see you do not fully grasp the dynamics of EU today' (insert your exact explanation), and then I could re-post with something along the lines of 'You know, you are right comments retracted' instead of digressing in this manner.

-Powder

Not having knowledge of something is not a crime. I dropped History at 15. To be honest, the curriculum offered wasn't sufficient to keep me interested. I read the news every day and enjoy digging for information - I like to be well informed.



Nico, you are bordering on the nutter stakes with posts like that about Waco. Are you a conspiracy theorist?

[Nicodimas]

Nutter? That stuff actually happened and there has been books about it. I don't see how it's theory that people were shot trying to leave the fire. The FBI stopped the firefighters from getting in there. Waco was a tragedy. I don't see anyone could ever support the actions the goverment took at Waco, Katrina, and Ruby Ridge. Read one you would feel differently.

http://www.amazon.co...69825026&sr=8-2
http://www.amazon.co...9825026&sr=8-10

Quote

Hayes writes:


The FBI murdered everyone they could and destroyed as much evidence as possible. This was the issue that screamed for investigation. The Joint Committee spent its ten days spreading whitewash. Anyone who watched and/or listened to the hearings, as PFP did, clearly noted the Alice in Wonderland quality. The two Davidians and their two attorneys gave a clear and consistent story of ATF, FBI and military aggression and Davidian self-defense. However, every person on the imperial payroll told a story that was the exact opposite.

I don't see how the people must follow the law, but if there goverment doesn't it's okay, because after all they were "bad" people.

[Lisheo]

Nicodimas, on 29 March 2010 - 01:14 AM, said:

Nutter? That stuff actually happened and there has been books about it. I don't see how it's theory that people were shot trying to leave the fire. The FBI stopped the firefighters from getting in there. Waco was a tragedy. I don't see anyone could ever support the actions the goverment took at Waco, Katrina, and Ruby Ridge. Read one you would feel differently.

http://www.amazon.co...69825026&sr=8-2
http://www.amazon.co...9825026&sr=8-10

Quote

Hayes writes:


The FBI murdered everyone they could and destroyed as much evidence as possible. This was the issue that screamed for investigation. The Joint Committee spent its ten days spreading whitewash. Anyone who watched and/or listened to the hearings, as PFP did, clearly noted the Alice in Wonderland quality. The two Davidians and their two attorneys gave a clear and consistent story of ATF, FBI and military aggression and Davidian self-defense. However, every person on the imperial payroll told a story that was the exact opposite.

I don't see how the people must follow the law, but if there goverment doesn't it's okay, because after all they were "bad" people.

Okay, firstly, there's a difference between criticising the FBI and making claims that they murdered a rather obscure religious cult headed by someone who was, to say the least, capable of VERY malicious influence. And it was really within the Davidian's own interests to defend their cult. After all, cults like that have a notable history of brainwashing (too tired to pull up examples right now, but Heaven's Gate would be one, among many), that have convinced normal people to do things they normally wouldn't do without hesitation. I suspect testifying against the FBI, a group known to have been trying to shut them down, would be less unlikely than mass suicide, after all.

Also, people generally follow the law because it's designed from preventing them getting harmed, and allowing the state to continue its existence. Now, I'm not saying that I disagree with you about the state in general, but the FBI for example are empowered above the law to a certain extent in order to combat criminals on more or less equal terms (here, the police mostly aren't armed, and thus generally end up in various spots of bother when facing armed criminals). I don't know about "bad" people, everyone is "bad" to an extent, but someone who has a weapon and is likely to harm or even kill you for whatever crazy ideals they hold? In my book, the FBI should stop them.

As for the books, I've also read a book called Mein Kampf. Fascinating read, but doesn't make it any less wrong. Sources can be biased.

[MTS]

Lisheo, on 29 March 2010 - 04:30 AM, said:

As for the books, I've also read a book called Mein Kampf. Fascinating read, but doesn't make it any less wrong. Sources can be biased.

Aaaand there it is. Hello, Godwin.

As for armed militias, I pretty much agree with the majority that armed civilian militias are a bad idea. While on an individual scale these people might not be any more prone to violence, that doesn't mean that violence will not occur due to their presence. Guns make people nervous, and if you have a big crowd of people all brandishing guns, and they are confronted by police say, well, I don't really think the guy with the .45 is going to make the best decision for all involved. And people impassioned by their beliefs in the heat of the moment can lose their better judgment.

Oh, why do some Americans believe they have the right to have/join/congregate in their own private armed civilian militias? Is it a combination of freedom of assembly and right to bear arms? Because to me, it seems more that people want them to exist merely because they can rather than any real utility. Why are they needed? What are you fighting? Are Homeland Security and the FBI on their own private crusade against freedom that needs to be defended against?

[maro]

MTS, on 29 March 2010 - 05:27 AM, said:

Oh, why do some Americans believe they have the right to have/join/congregate in their own private armed civilian militias? Is it a combination of freedom of assembly and right to bear arms?

I think it's not dissimilar to manic collectors.

Guns are interesting things in themselves. Add the collecting bug to it and 1+1 becomes 3.

[MTS]

maro, on 29 March 2010 - 05:38 AM, said:

MTS, on 29 March 2010 - 05:27 AM, said:

Oh, why do some Americans believe they have the right to have/join/congregate in their own private armed civilian militias? Is it a combination of freedom of assembly and right to bear arms?

I think it's not dissimilar to manic collectors.

Guns are interesting things in themselves. Add the collecting bug to it and 1+1 becomes 3.

That only explains gun proliferation, not the formation of militias.