[Nicodimas]

Quote

To a degree, I actually oppose the increase of 'transparency' of government - primarily because the people are, by and large, petty, squabbling, ignorant whiners. Nitpicking is a waste of time. I care about the results, not the means

Does this concept apply to War's that the goverment engages in? I am all for letting soldiers do what needs to be done to make sure you all know.
Make it Effective and get the F out->>Total War anyone?

Just wondering.

This post has been edited by Nicodimas: 25 March 2010 - 01:20 AM

[MTS]

Nicodimas, on 25 March 2010 - 01:20 AM, said:

Quote

To a degree, I actually oppose the increase of 'transparency' of government - primarily because the people are, by and large, petty, squabbling, ignorant whiners. Nitpicking is a waste of time. I care about the results, not the means

Does this concept apply to War's that the goverment engages in? I am all for letting soldiers do what needs to be done to make sure you all know.
Make it Effective and get the F out->>Total War anyone?

Just wondering.

I would say no. Giving soldiers carte blanche to do whatever they want in order to 'get the job done' is merely a license for atrocity, not an effective military strategy. What do you think the soldiers 'need to do', anyway?

[maro]

Jusentantaka, on 24 March 2010 - 04:50 PM, said:

Ok ok ok. Can we -Please- stop the 'Scandinorsevegia' comparisons to the US? The populace of these countries just do not compare to any but a minority of Americans, in attitude, beliefs, perspective or governance. 'Why can't americans be like us/them' is just crap. A bit off the handle in light of the contents of this thread, but there you have it. Maybe its a bit of the straw-breaking-the-camel's-back.

The population makes no difference. It's exponential but the Taxation works the same for 10 people as it does for 200 million.

It's just the word "Socialism" that worries you

[MTS]

maro, on 25 March 2010 - 01:56 AM, said:

Jusentantaka, on 24 March 2010 - 04:50 PM, said:

Ok ok ok. Can we -Please- stop the 'Scandinorsevegia' comparisons to the US? The populace of these countries just do not compare to any but a minority of Americans, in attitude, beliefs, perspective or governance. 'Why can't americans be like us/them' is just crap. A bit off the handle in light of the contents of this thread, but there you have it. Maybe its a bit of the straw-breaking-the-camel's-back.

The population makes no difference. It's exponential but the Taxation works the same for 10 people as it does for 200 million.

It's just the word "Socialism" that worries you

The taxation may work the same, but the bureaucracy that uses those taxes becomes ever complicated the more people it has to service, so I don't think it's just the world socialism that worries Jusentantakalaka.

Pretty blatant assumption that all Americans are against any form of socialist institution, as well.

This post has been edited by MTS: 25 March 2010 - 02:17 AM

[HoosierDaddy]

I'm certainly not. It is a "boogeyman" word here though. Like "liberal." I'm so far to the left of most the Middle that I can see the Right from the otherside.

[maro]

MTS, on 25 March 2010 - 02:16 AM, said:

maro, on 25 March 2010 - 01:56 AM, said:

Jusentantaka, on 24 March 2010 - 04:50 PM, said:

Ok ok ok. Can we -Please- stop the 'Scandinorsevegia' comparisons to the US? The populace of these countries just do not compare to any but a minority of Americans, in attitude, beliefs, perspective or governance. 'Why can't americans be like us/them' is just crap. A bit off the handle in light of the contents of this thread, but there you have it. Maybe its a bit of the straw-breaking-the-camel's-back.

The population makes no difference. It's exponential but the Taxation works the same for 10 people as it does for 200 million.

It's just the word "Socialism" that worries you

The taxation may work the same, but the bureaucracy that uses those taxes becomes ever complicated the more people it has to service, so I don't think it's just the world socialism that worries Jusentantakalaka.

Pretty blatant assumption that all Americans are against any form of socialist institution, as well.

You'd find that if say an American version of the NHS was implemented, you'd have regional/state boards etc. There isn't one huge "boss" in Washington.

My generalisation is just a retort against us Europeans being soft and Nanny-stated.

[Jusentantaka]

Fox nanny-state-baby Mulder, on 25 March 2010 - 01:56 AM, said:

It's just the word "Socialism" that worries you

Yup. I stay up night after night wondering what it would be like if my money was spent in ways to help people. I swear, I'd like kills myself. God forbid I only get to buy forty new fur coats each year to wear when I'm flying around on my private jets instead of eighty.

[Nicodimas]

Dang people are really freaking out. It's going to get ugly when the market crashes, just the question on when it happens.

http://www.politico....0310/34953.html

I was really hoping a third party would be formed from the tea party and get well organized, even if they just got few seats it would be a amazing step foward. It is getting absorbed by the republican party. Bummer.


GRAPHS=>
http://www.swarmusa....-of-the-CENTURY

This post has been edited by Nicodimas: 25 March 2010 - 03:03 AM

[HoosierDaddy]

Nic, we can both agree that we'd like to see AT LEAST a viable 3rd party. The more choice we have the less polarization because of the Big Tent mentality.

[Nicodimas]

So how you all taking those graphs?

[maro]

Jusentantaka, on 25 March 2010 - 02:44 AM, said:

Fox nanny-state-baby Mulder, on 25 March 2010 - 01:56 AM, said:

It's just the word "Socialism" that worries you

Yup. I stay up night after night wondering what it would be like if my money was spent in ways to help people. I swear, I'd like kills myself. God forbid I only get to buy forty new fur coats each year to wear when I'm flying around on my private jets instead of eighty.

[Sinisdar Toste]

Nicodimas, on 25 March 2010 - 03:19 AM, said:

So how you all taking those graphs?

i could certainly get the impression that it might be time to start preparing for a shitstorm. i've been getting that impression for a couple years now actually. its just a matter of when things get 'end of society as we know it' real, of course

[Shinrei]

@Maro

36,961,664 is the population of California. Australia's population is 22,199,331. If you don't think that this creates some sort of difference in social medicine implementation, then you're a wee bit crazy. Not to mention entirely different relationships between State and Federal institutions, the different form of governance, in a way it boggles my mind that you think it could be similar.

It's like having a modest income and a small house with 2 cats. Or having an incredibly high income with a large house and 2,000 cats*. We've just multiplied things, but it's still the same right?









*this is my goal btw

[maro]

Shinrei - it's economies of scale that's all.

I'm English, not Aussie (like you I'm an expat).

The UK is 60 million and it works. Germany and France are bigger again. They don't collapse.

Is California the largest populated state?

Your Cat analogy, whilst cool, is false. The difference between Oz and California's population is not the same as that between 2 cats and 2000.

Gambatte!

[Powder]

@ US comparisons

I would argue that the reason these comparisons fail is because of several factors.

1. Geographical size and diversity of the US
2. Population
a. Many subcultures
b. Many different ethnic groups
c. Immigrants both illegal and legal
3. History/Dominant culture
a. Individualism
b. Frontiersmanship
c. If you work hard enough you can make it attitudes
d. ETC

Comparisons to European countries fail because Euro countries are relatively small, they have a dominant host population (IE French, German, Italian Etc), and their history is far removed from ideas such as manifest destiny. Given these ideas it should be much easier for Euro countries to work together because their 'group' is much smaller. Interesting thought, most Americans(myself included) when asked what nationality we are, do not answer 'American'. We answer well I'm Dutch, or Japanese, or Nigerian. Boundaries like this are multiplied 100 fold within the borders of the US, and thus make it harder for these competing groups to work together to do anything. It is really hard to get farmers from Nebraska to care about city life in NYC. For that matter it is hard to get people from upstate New York to care about NYC.

In summary: US society is fragmented on many levels, and we lack things which unify our country and draw us together. The true potential and might of the US comes out only when we are forced to work together and do soemthing which clearly benefits all of us. Pertinent examples: WWI, WWII, and though not on the same scale 9/11. Without such a huge unifying factor we are unable to unify as 'Americans' because we do not yet feel at home identifying ourselves as purely 'American', but rather as whatever nationality we hail from.

-Powder

[HoosierDaddy]

"What nationality they are...."

I disagree. Ancestry, yes. And perhaps first generation immigrants as well, but I disagree that most Americans would say anything other than "American" when asked what nationality they are.

[Jusentantaka]

H.D., on 25 March 2010 - 10:44 PM, said:

"What nationality they are...."

I disagree. Ancestry, yes. And perhaps first generation immigrants as well, but I disagree that most Americans would say anything other than "American" when asked what nationality they are.

Definitely* agree with the Diddy. Also strange to me that Powder is in NYC and saying so. (yeah, this sounds clunky to me too, but I'm too lazy to quote) I don't think it is absolutely inaccurate from my experiences there, but more so than not. However, it has been a couple years since I've lived there, and I was only really kickin' it in the mid to late 90s, but can it really have changed that much?

(and for why upstate NY people don't care about the city is a matter of hundreds of different things coming together over decades and becoming ingrained in the local politics)

*though people love to misinterpret questions like this. I mean, if some guy came up to me and asked "Where are you from?" I'd probably, while flicking the safety off, say 'vietnam', since I'd presume the question to seek that answer. He could mean what state, sure, but... y'know?

[Shinrei]

Well, it depends on the context. If someone asks me what nationality I am while I'm in the US, I would answer with my ancestry. If I'm outside the US, I'll say I'm from the US.

I'm afraid I've probably lost perspective on what Powder is saying though, because living abroad seems to automatically make everyone else from the US a potential drinking buddy. Also, I would say that any strong nationalistic tendencies I may have had have been largely disolved by my experience of being an immigrant and from living most of my adult life outside the US.


Nationality is very overrated IMO. I remember having an argument a long time ago with Fool who was arguing that Nationalism was a tired and stupid concept. I find myself agreeing with him much more than I did back then.

[Cougar]

Powder: most of those comparisons are terribly ill thought out, sure the US is different, but you're really showing a lack of insight into European countries with some of those. More importantly, you are actually saying nothing - what is the essential feature of US diversity, or population size - think that while the population might be c.4 times the size of Germany, Germany is vastly larger than Lichtenstein, Latvia or Hungary. Immigrants/divrsity etc,? Most European countries have vast dissident populations , the Scots and Welsh in the UK, The Catalans and Basques in Spain (the same in France), Germany is Federal and the Bavarians hardly think of themselves as similar to the rest, Switzerland and Belgium are riven by internal language disputes - I could go on. Many of the countries have large first and second generation immigrants 10% in Germany for example and many of the Eastern and central states are a mass of competing cultural identities.

You could hardly compare the broadly socialist communitarianism (with a heavy does of xenophobia) of the French, LEF etc to the slow burn of British constitutional progress as ideologically similar.

Most welfare states I can think of and I can by no means think of even half of them, stemmed from Labour/social democratic acendancy, but not all - the German effort was kicked off by that most conservative of old tyrants, Otto von Bismark.

I definitely think the USA's general attitude or dominant culture is a perfectly good reason - there always seems to be a streak of can do individualism that is present on ME so that seems reasonable.

This of course is not to say that the USA is directly comparable to anywhere else, but I'm not going to let something as lazy as what Powder says go.

[Nicodimas]

I know for the Census people on some other forums I visit were saying to enter: American as Race. I know I got many people to do this same thing. People were offended by this question. We are Americans at this point <And damn proud of it>.

We are doing a astounding job from my limited group<20-25> of Americans in mixing it up. I think it's cool as we all have different political thought also...I love other peoples opinions, just to argue my own.