[Nicodimas]

Just for conversation as it is not PC at all. I will work until the day I die, probably like my father/grandfather at a young age from a heart attack/stroke. Just the way it is.


"You cannot legislate the poor into freedom by legislating the wealthy out of freedom. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that my dear friend, is about the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it."
~~~~ Dr. Adrian Rogers, 1931


That's basically the premise to find a way to live off/away from the system. With this healthcare reform here and the way it looks this would be an excellent way to use it and drawing Social Security early. Call it really early retirement as we are in an age that has everything preety much. One way is if everyone just starts to seek goverment jobs. Buy secondhand items. Farm your items.The idea is to take more than you make. Go the Library for entertainment and learn everything. Anything to gain skills once society collapses when to many people engage in this activity. Potential why engage in it if someone else is going to make your decisions for you? This is clearly turning into a dystopia, so taking back your freedom by becoming a Leech. This funny enough does require a good portion of money to live nicely though. If I could get a bunch of people per house this would help out a ton. The idea is to destroy advancement of GDP, but increase it for yourself.
Not voting would be the only way this would work also. Saying no to advancement would be the other side of this coin..


Basically just looking for ways to propagate this philosophy and engage in a different kind of freedom. That of a Leechfuck..I was reading about it and found it to be very appealing.

Quote

Two Kinds of People

by Ella Wheeler Wilcox

There are two kinds of people on earth today,
Two kinds of people no more I say.
Not the good or the bad, for it's well understood,
The good are half bad, the bad are half good.

Not the happy or sad, for in the swift-flying years,
Bring each man his laughter, each man his tears.
Not the rich or the poor, for to count a man's wealth,
You must know the state of his conscience and health.

Not the humble and proud, for in life's busy span,
Who puts on vain airs is not counted a man.
No! the two kinds of people on earth I mean,
Are the people who lift, the people who lean.

Wherever you go you'll find the world's masses
Are ever divided into these two classes.
And, strangely enough, you will find, too, I mean,
There is only one lifter to twenty who lean.

In which class are you? Are you easing the load
Of the overtaxed lifters who toiled down the road?
Or are you a leaner who lets others bear,
Your portion of worry and labor and care?

This post has been edited by Nicodimas: 23 March 2010 - 07:25 AM

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

wat.

[Aptorian]

I'm wondering, Nicodemas, just out of curiosity, since you seem to display many of the die hard Republican ideas and ideals, are you a Christian? Or are the Christians perhaps too generous and foolish when it comes to their wealth and forgiveness? Or is it just that a Republican does not believe in humility and generosity?

I'm not a Christian, but I always find it interesting that the most extreme believers in America also seem to support a political idea that the weak need to fend for themselves.

Quote

The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else

Exchange the words give and take with "share with" and "recieve from", and you have the concept of the socialist governments of Scandinavia. I do not look upon it as though the Government is taking from me, I am giving a chunk of my money, nearly half of it actually, to the government who in turn makes sure that I am provided for. Free healthcare, free education and a host of other benefits. This is a system that is built to make sure that the people less fortunate than me do not have to stay uneducated, live in poor health, etc.

See this is a difference in perspective. I live in a society where you don't look with suspicion on the Government, we do not fear that people will take away our rights. I don't believe that I need a stash of weapons to protect me from the Russians. I don't have to worry about my social security if I am laid off and I know that society will take care of me. We share. And by pooling our wealth we are a happy and wealthy people.

You Nicodemas seem to view America as the wild west. You see evil schemes behind every government action. You believe that society as you know it is on the verge of collapse and your fellow man will fall upon you at any given point. To be honest, with the things I read in the media and with people like the Bush administration in your governments I can't blame you, but it is that paranoia, and that unwillingness to share, that makes a country fragile. You spend too much time fearing and planning for disaster. You should spend your time thinking of ways to strengthen your society and help the poor rather than living in fear and preparing for the worst.

EDIT: Of course, when Palin and Beck get to run the Government and the world ends in 2012, you get to say "I told you so".

This post has been edited by Aptorian: 23 March 2010 - 08:29 AM

[cerveza_fiesta]

I'm with RLY.

wat?

[Gothos]

yeah, wat?

on another note, Nico's fatalism and doomsayer syndrome is getting a bit annoying truth be told

[Cougar]

It's nothing to do with being PC, Social Democracy is about belief in a shared responsibility for society and a recognition that for those with the most to offer to flourish there must be an equality of opportunity. Asymetries of power always seek to reproduce themselves, so the poor and disadvantaged remain trapped, while the advantaged, yet mediocre seek to advance themselves and their offspring.

It's about recognising that capitalism allows our relatively unsophisticated society/culture the opportunity to fuck each other over, but by the same token an understanding that, in the long term, to allow the logic of the market to define your social policy is grossly stupid.

Freedom is misused in an inappropriate and baffling context in the quote by Rogers, you can multiply wealth by taking care of the most disadvantaged, you can increase productivity by giving people good healthcare and opportunities to 'better' themselves'.

The one overiding problem is that it's a totally 'I'm alright jack mentality' I've worked hard for 5 years, been fortunate, paid more tax than most people pay in 10 plus years, I know there are spongers who don't want to work, but I also know there are people who need the help. Moreover, when I'm stuck after I finish my PhD and it takes me 6 months or 12 months to find a job in a competitive market, I'd sure as fuck want to claim my state support and take advantage of medical care so that I can be solvent and healthy enough to get a new job, not be some sick, destitute wreck. When I've got my new job and I'm teaching at the Uni, how has it not benefitted the state to have supported me, how does it not benefit the state and everyone in it (admittedly in an abstract sense) for me to have been supported. I'm not stupid enough to believe that it works like that for all, or even most, but I'm sure as hell not going to condem anyone who is unlucky enough to be without work for a period of time to a pit from which they are unable to climb.

[Obdigore]

I would just quote Apt and Cougar, but it dosen't need to be said again.

To play devils advocate, however, Nic, am I wrong about you being say 35+?

I also do see people reaching that mark in the US that did not get free education or anything else and did 'fine', so anyone else can do 'fine' without it, and they don't want to pay for it now that they are coming into the money they feel they deserve.

I am not in any way endorsing or agreeing with that view, but that is the view I am seeing from a lot of (US) republicans, regardless of their religion.

[Shinrei]

Apt, the US is not scandinavia.

Our government has done little to nothing financially to inspire confidence in their ability to get anything right when it comes to handling the money we "share" with the Fed.

Republicans or Democrats, they are fiscally irresponsible. If they were a household (or a country that doesn't have a nuclear arsenal and a misplaced international confidence in their currency) they would be bankrupt and pathetic. What they've done and have brewing makes any sort of Wall Street shenanigans look like shady dealings with milk money in the elementary school lunchroom. I suppose in a bizarre mafia-esque way it makes sense to have crooks dealt with by even bigger crooks, so the government taking shares of the banks is really funny ha-ha when you think about it.

Regardless of your political leanings, the numbers when it comes to deficit and debt are not a lie or even very confusing. I don't see how people can believe the experts and science on global climate change, and not believe experts and the numbers on USA fiscal irresponsibility. Ignoring the reality of both of these things will bite us in the ass.






-That's all. I've said it again and again on different threads. Carry on ignoring it. It's much easier to say "you're heartless and cruel and fearmongering. Socialism works great in (insert country here)."

This post has been edited by Shinrei: 23 March 2010 - 03:09 PM

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

I'd like to point out that while it is true that both parties are fiscally irresponsible, there was a surplus at the end of Clinton's presidency.

If I were a biased man, I might suggest that America as a whole would be much more fiscally responsible if every 8 years or so we didn't have to deal with a borrow&spend, supply side, Reaganomics republican in office. Say what you want about democrats taxing&spending, at least the money is coming from somewhere.

[drinksinbars]

Cougar, on 23 March 2010 - 11:51 AM, said:

It's nothing to do with being PC, Social Democracy is about belief in a shared responsibility for society and a recognition that for those with the most to offer to flourish there must be an equality of opportunity. Asymetries of power always seek to reproduce themselves, so the poor and disadvantaged remain trapped, while the advantaged, yet mediocre seek to advance themselves and their offspring.

It's about recognising that capitalism allows our relatively unsophisticated society/culture the opportunity to fuck each other over, but by the same token an understanding that, in the long term, to allow the logic of the market to define your social policy is grossly stupid.

Freedom is misused in an inappropriate and baffling context in the quote by Rogers, you can multiply wealth by taking care of the most disadvantaged, you can increase productivity by giving people good healthcare and opportunities to 'better' themselves'.

The one overiding problem is that it's a totally 'I'm alright jack mentality' I've worked hard for 5 years, been fortunate, paid more tax than most people pay in 10 plus years, I know there are spongers who don't want to work, but I also know there are people who need the help. Moreover, when I'm stuck after I finish my PhD and it takes me 6 months or 12 months to find a job in a competitive market, I'd sure as fuck want to claim my state support and take advantage of medical care so that I can be solvent and healthy enough to get a new job, not be some sick, destitute wreck. When I've got my new job and I'm teaching at the Uni, how has it not benefitted the state to have supported me, how does it not benefit the state and everyone in it (admittedly in an abstract sense) for me to have been supported. I'm not stupid enough to believe that it works like that for all, or even most, but I'm sure as hell not going to condem anyone who is unlucky enough to be without work for a period of time to a pit from which they are unable to climb.

agree to a large extent but there is of course a growing number of people in the uk, who have never worked and never intend to work who living off benefits is more lucrative than getting a job and its a growing underclass which is seeing no measure of attention from governement that is adequate or appropriate to counter was in effect a lifestyle choice. unless central governemtn policy toward the benefits sytem changes fundamentally this isnt going to change and filling that blackhole by taking away from those that work might have been ok when we were making money but it isnt a long term solution. most especially now we are deep in the finincial shit.

[Shinrei]

RLY, actually that's a fair statement. But it is still saying one set of crooks steals openly while the other does so covertly. I'll grant that the covert ones (the republicans) were funneling more money/debt during the reign of the worst president the US has ever had (George W. Bush).

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

Shinrei, on 23 March 2010 - 03:12 PM, said:

RLY, actually that's a fair statement. But it is still saying one set of crooks steals openly while the other does so covertly. I'll grant that the covert ones (the republicans) were funneling more money/debt during the reign of the worst president the US has ever had (George W. Bush).

Well, fair enough then.

[Nicodimas]

"....words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there?..." quote from V for Vendetta

People fear something else far more and why you are descending onto my, that maybe your wrong that follow the leader isn't a good thing actually. One must just look at history to see where this has gotten us. Maybe you all are afraid of the path you are taking... Don't come into my thread gothos if you don't want to partpicate. This should be a really fun thread exploring ways to become a leechfuck. It's not fear to know something for truth, but a decision that this is the way society is and it took awhile to get here.


Interesting. Oh yeah as a side note I'm 26 y/o, was a boy scout and been volunteering every since. I have been volunteering at a local homeless shelter, a few other places that catch my eye <weekly to monthly>, so believe me when I have heard the stories about how some got there.

[teholbeddict]

First of all Nicodimas, this is a public board so while you may have started the thread and consider it yours, all members have a right to post in here. Secondly there's no need to be this abrasive. There is a huge difference between something not being PC and just being outright ridiculous not to mention rude.

I really agree with what Cougar and Apt have had to say here. It expresses my opinion perfectly, I don't want to just parrot what they've already said, so I'll leave it at that.

[cerveza_fiesta]

Quote

That's basically the premise to find a way to live off/away from the system. With this healthcare reform here and the way it looks this would be an excellent way to use it and drawing Social Security early. Call it really early retirement as we are in an age that has everything preety much. One way is if everyone just starts to seek goverment jobs. Buy secondhand items. Farm your items.The idea is to take more than you make. Go the Library for entertainment and learn everything. Anything to gain skills once society collapses when to many people engage in this activity. Potential why engage in it if someone else is going to make your decisions for you? This is clearly turning into a dystopia, so taking back your freedom by becoming a Leech. This funny enough does require a good portion of money to live nicely though. If I could get a bunch of people per house this would help out a ton. The idea is to destroy advancement of GDP, but increase it for yourself.
Not voting would be the only way this would work also. Saying no to advancement would be the other side of this coin..

I understand what you're saying I think.

Screw over the "establishment" which I assume means the government by becoming a dependent of the state and ensuring that you contribute as little as possible to the economy through purchase of goods. Further, become a government employee so that you take as much as possible out without putting anything back in.

Given your other thread was about conservation of the constitution, an idea which you claim to support, I'm confused by this thread. The preamble, or "mission statement" of the constitution reads:

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

This statement is contrary to the whole leechfuck idea. Bankrupting the federal government by leeching off it damages the integrity of the Union, would surely cause severe domestic turmoil, reduce funding to the armed forces that provide common defence, reduce available social program monies for people that actually need it, AND would surely damage the quality of life for America's posterity.

Given that leechfucking goes against every element of the constitution's raison-d'etre, I wonder why you think that it is a good idea.

Just wondering if you could explain the discrepancy..

Or are we working on the same logical model that allows Obama to be called a Nazi, stalinist and communist at the same time? If so, forget I asked.

[Cougar]

Shinrei, on 23 March 2010 - 02:53 PM, said:

-That's all. I've said it again and again on different threads. Carry on ignoring it. It's much easier to say "you're heartless and cruel and fearmongering. Socialism works great in (insert country here)."

Why say that Shin? it's "sigh/rollseyes" all over again.

I think in this case I'm personally saying it's selfish and it's you who is ignoring the more important ideas. As I have said before, but it bears repeating, the question is not whether it can be achieved perfectly, but whether it can be tried as a way to better ourselves. Nobody on here has ever claimed that their state works perfectly, but it's the aspiration to create something that benefits the population more, not whether it can be afforded in $$s and ££s

Nico:

"Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth"

I'll delve into the old German a bit here. Words are almost never the truth, there is no single representational condition and no access to an abstract truth that we all understand. Words have no inherent meanings, and they certainly do not offer the means to meaning, they are shells of metaphors that strip the world of individuality, but at their heart truth is the one thing that can never be extracted from words. Even in a thread that started in such a fashion, to take such a meaningless set of platitudes, from a fantasy film and believe that it adds weight to the argument is astonishing.

I'd love to comment on the rest of that, but I have to admit to struggling a little with your prose.

And don't tell members not to come into your thread, it's not your house.

[Aptorian]

I understand Nico and Shins arguments about the danger of trusting in leadership if that leadership (government) is broken, but I would target that suspicion and anger at the ones responsible. Those reponsible in my opinion being "The Bush Administration" and not Obama and certainly not "the System". The system has been sorely abused by bad people, but that doesn't make the system bad, mere flawed in that it is open for manipulation. Like Ray pointed out, during the Clinton Administration the budget was well into the black, America was working on lowering the debt and everything looked rosy. And then came Bush...

What irks me about American politics and the general impression of American culture is that there is this divide. Either you're republican or you're democrat, if you pick a side you hate the other side and suddenly lose the ability to rationalise whether or not the politician in red or in blue is the bad guy. The Media is full of lies and hate, blaming the other side for this and that, false statistics, paid off "experts", etc.

I seriously can not see how this is healthy for a country.

I've watched some documentaries on the spin-doctors in American politics that began a tradition of aggressive propaganda and slander against the political opponents in the 90s. And I think that strategy is not just disgusting but extremely scary. How can you build up a healthy cultural society if you have the country split in two every 4 years and kept separated in between with lots of mud throwing and scare tactics?

Obviously there was a bond made between all Americans on 9/11 bringing the nation together but that was based on fear and anger wrapped in patriotism.

I would be much more impressed with American politics if the politicians were capable of agreeing on things and not just make shit up at random to ruin the other sides ideas whether or not it benefits the American people. My impression of the Healthcare debate has been that the democrats were all voting for because that would be good for Obama and it would annoy the Republicans, and the Republicans were voting against the bill because they didn't want the a democrat in office actually achieving anything popular and they disliked the idea of having to pay money to the poor or god forbid some illegal immigrant working in their backyard with out social security. Rarely did I get the impression that the debate was actually about the people and what they needed.

American politics is just one big grudge match. This is not the point of democracy.

[Nicodimas]

Sorry about trying to keep people out..just always irritates me. Got to remember to ignore things that bug me..

Aptorian..Amazing post. I clearly care to much about where we are heading. I guess I am a bit pessimstic, but that is exactly my sentiment. I detest lately when talking to either side that this is the way republicans are and this is the way democrats are. A divide has formed, a unhealthy divide and neither side is talking to another. Just a big gap. I have always believed you should take a step back and re-evaluate what, why and how you came to your conclusion of what you believe in..versus going in blinders on in Life.

The big thing that I detest with "my" party lately is that dissention is not allowed for instance.

Back to work..quick post..couldn't extrapolate on some of these really well laid out posts. Thank you all.

[RodeoRanch]

Hey Nic. You've mentioned in a few posts your certainty that American society will collapse. What's your idea of when that may occur? In your lifetime? Further ahead?

I'm genuinely curious.

[Aptorian]

RodeoRanch, on 23 March 2010 - 06:14 PM, said:

Hey Nic. You've mentioned in a few posts your certainty that American society will collapse. What's your idea of when that may occur? In your lifetime? Further ahead?

I'm genuinely curious.

I refer you to this awesome article I posted.

http://forum.malazan...showtopic=16388

I'm still waiting.