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#1 User is offline   D'rek 

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Posted 21 March 2010 - 08:55 PM

This is about the lizards.

The Che'malle refuge in the Wastelands has been sitting on its butt stagnating for eons, and then Matron Gynthwhatsherfaceacyl gets an inkling that the Nah'ruk are coming and starts seeking out mortals to be her Three, developing never-before-used shields and spawning more lizards than ever conceived before. Meanwhile, random remnants of Nah'ruk that are laying around interred and asleep wherever they may be all suddenly get up, evict the current owners of their old sky keeps and congregate in the IW to then strike into the wastelands.

The nagging question in my head is why are they doing this now? The Che'malle could have decided to revolutionize their society thousands of years ago, what spurred them to do so now? Likewise, the Nah'ruk were stuck in whatever places they were until very recently and then they just broke out. The example(s) we have are from tBH with chained Nah'ruk breaking out at Umryg and (potentially the same ones minus one) shortly thereafter showing up to take back their old encased skykeep in Ganath's ritual. Presumably they then took that skykeep and joined up with the other Nah'ruk in the IW who had just done the same thing all across the world(s). As is noted from the showdown in DoD, the Nah'ruk could not create new skykeeps, they were just using old ones. One would imagine then, that their entire fleet of skykeeps probably was scrounged entirely in similarish circumstances to the one in tBH.

But the question remains as to why they did this now, when it seems they could have gotten up, taken back their skykeeps and invaded wherever any time ago. So I'm interested in what people's (crazy) theories are on this and how they think the answer may influence the rest of the events.

---

For my own crazy theory, I think that perhaps the Nah'ruk are indeed being manipulated by the CG. That the CG has been using his other servants and powers to free the Nah'ruk and that the Nah'ruk legion was headed for Kolanse to protect him against the forces coming for him. It gives them a reason to be reviving now and a reason to be headed east across the Wastelands (with the Che'malle revival being a result of the Nah'ruk's coming). If Sorrit was crucified recently with the purpose of breaking Ganath's ritual on that skykeep, that would offer a link as to why blackwood was used for that and give us an inkling of who did the crucifying in the first place.

View Postworrywort, on 14 September 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I kinda love it when D'rek unleashes her nerd wrath, as I knew she would here. Sorry innocent bystanders, but someone's gotta be the kindling.
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#2 User is offline   chaosek 

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Posted 21 March 2010 - 09:37 PM

I have been wondering about this myself for quite a while, but I think it is the ice. Gothos' ritual froze everything and everyone so maybe they are freed by the melting ice. This doesn't reall explain the Naruk in the IW though, although one could wonder how long the ice has been melting. The references to melting and 'rotting' ice from all over Wu are numerous. Could be that since OP is dying all Jaghut rituals are melting. Freeing those trapped inside.

This post has been edited by chaosek: 21 March 2010 - 09:37 PM

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#3 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 22 March 2010 - 12:11 AM

I'm fairly sure the CG has his hands in everything, in what he believes to be his final stand. The Pannion Seer and the Whirlwind Goddess are also coinciding more or less (same decade) with what's going on in Lether. The CG is attempting to influence every broken being he can for some final confrontation. Essentially, it's a world(s)wide gambit, and one he has a fairly good chance of winning. He's an opportunist in the sense that he will use everything he can to reach his goal, but not in the sense that he just waits for the opportunities to come to him.
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#4 User is offline   Seras 

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Posted 22 March 2010 - 02:33 AM

"Steal one away and it's damn near mindless. Gather them in their thousands, and their will becomes one...and that will is...gods below...it is so very cold" - Quick Ben.
My theory is that there were probably too few Nah'ruk to take back the sky-keeps, and as such they had to find other Nah'ruk, ones that were still wandering around here and there, doing their mindless thing.
:lol: <--- Nah'ruk
It'd be pretty damn hard to dig out a keep that's buried under 200 feet of ice, not to mention repairing other damaged ones that they had found with only a few dozen lizards.

As for the Che'Malle, my guess is that there was no need for them to change their society, but with hundreds of thousands of Nah'ruk coming, they had to do something. Since everything else they'd tried before had failed epically, they used humans. I'm most likely wrong though, since there was plenty of time for other matrons to do the same thing, during the first few K'Chain wars.
Lives and loves, the gamut of existence was marked by such things. A breaking of paths, the ragged, uneven ever-forward stumble. Blood dried, eventually. Turned to dust. The corpses of kings were laid down and sealed in darkness and set away, to be forgotten. Graves were dug for fallen soldiers, vast pits like mouths in the earth, opened in hunger, and all the bodies were tumbled down, each exhaling a last gasp of lime dust. Survivors grieved, for a time, and looked upon empty rooms and empty beds, the scattering of possessions no-one possessed any longer, and wondered what was to come, what would be written anew on the wiped-clean slate. Wondering, how can I go on?
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#5 User is offline   Sinisdar Toste 

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Posted 22 March 2010 - 02:38 AM

also, procuring dragons to harness power off of is no mean feat. it may have taken the nah'ruk years and years to find and subdue the dragon whose blood creates their gate into the wastelands.

This post has been edited by Sinisdar Toste: 22 March 2010 - 02:39 AM

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#6 User is offline   Hetan 

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Posted 22 March 2010 - 09:07 AM

Quote

If Sorrit was crucified recently with the purpose of breaking Ganath's ritual on that skykeep, that would offer a link as to why blackwood was used for that and give us an inkling of who did the crucifying in the first place.


Sorrit was not crucified recently. She was crucified within the warren of Shadow - and that event happened a long long time ago, The warren then shattered and the fragment wandered (as they do) eventually getting caught within the piece of the sky keep, which was frozen subsequently by Ganath's ritual - again an event which happened a long time ago. This is quite clearly laid out in the Bonehunters.

Who did the crucifying? The Edur clearly. What for? To gain eleint blood.
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#7 User is offline   Eispeis 

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Posted 22 March 2010 - 01:55 PM

 It may be a simple "convergence of power" explanation. It's kinda boring, but everything else is going FUBAR now, so the lizards wanted in. 

This post has been edited by Eispeis: 22 March 2010 - 01:55 PM

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#8 User is offline   D'rek 

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Posted 22 March 2010 - 04:53 PM

View PostHetan, on 22 March 2010 - 09:07 AM, said:

Quote

If Sorrit was crucified recently with the purpose of breaking Ganath's ritual on that skykeep, that would offer a link as to why blackwood was used for that and give us an inkling of who did the crucifying in the first place.


Sorrit was not crucified recently. She was crucified within the warren of Shadow - and that event happened a long long time ago, The warren then shattered and the fragment wandered (as they do) eventually getting caught within the piece of the sky keep, which was frozen subsequently by Ganath's ritual - again an event which happened a long time ago. This is quite clearly laid out in the Bonehunters.

Who did the crucifying? The Edur clearly. What for? To gain eleint blood.


They said the skykeep was frozen in place a long time ago and Sorrit wasn't in it. And they then said that Sorrit was crucified in Shadow and eventually came through into the keep and broke Ganath's ritual. However, I don't recall them saying directly that Sorrit was crucified long ago... could've been relatively recent. (Could be wrong on this, I'll try and look it up)

View Postworrywort, on 14 September 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I kinda love it when D'rek unleashes her nerd wrath, as I knew she would here. Sorry innocent bystanders, but someone's gotta be the kindling.
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#9 User is offline   Hetan 

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Posted 22 March 2010 - 05:54 PM

View PostD, on 22 March 2010 - 04:53 PM, said:

View PostHetan, on 22 March 2010 - 09:07 AM, said:

Quote

If Sorrit was crucified recently with the purpose of breaking Ganath's ritual on that skykeep, that would offer a link as to why blackwood was used for that and give us an inkling of who did the crucifying in the first place.


Sorrit was not crucified recently. She was crucified within the warren of Shadow - and that event happened a long long time ago, The warren then shattered and the fragment wandered (as they do) eventually getting caught within the piece of the sky keep, which was frozen subsequently by Ganath's ritual - again an event which happened a long time ago. This is quite clearly laid out in the Bonehunters.

Who did the crucifying? The Edur clearly. What for? To gain eleint blood.


They said the skykeep was frozen in place a long time ago and Sorrit wasn't in it. And they then said that Sorrit was crucified in Shadow and eventually came through into the keep and broke Ganath's ritual. However, I don't recall them saying directly that Sorrit was crucified long ago... could've been relatively recent. (Could be wrong on this, I'll try and look it up)


They say nothing of the sort - "that it eventually came through into the keep" - it was snared by Ganath's ritual.

Quote

“The K’Chain Che’Malle did not kill Sorrit,” Icarium said. “They knew nothing of it.”
“Yet this creature here was frozen, so it must have been encompassed in the Jaghut’s ritual of Omtose Phellack -- how could the K’Chain Che’Malle not have known of this? This must have, even if they themselves did not slay Sorrit.”
“No, they are innocent, Mappo. I am certain of it.”
“Then … how?”
“The cruciform, it is Blackwood. From the realm of the Tiste Edur. From the Shadow Realm, Mappo. In that realm, as you know, things can be in two places at once, or begin in but one yet find itself eventually manifesting in another. Shadow wanders, and respects no borders.”
“Ah, then … this … was trapped here, drawn from Shadow --”
“Snared by the Jaghut’s ice magic -- yet the spilled blood, and perhaps the Otataral, proved too fierce for Omtose Phellack, thus shattering the Jaghut’s enchantment.”
“Sorrit was murdered in the Shadow Realm. Yes. Now the pattern, Icarium, grows that much clearer.”


It then goes on to talk about the K'Chain and Ganath....

Quote

The Jhag warrior said nothing. He walked along the pool’s edge, head down as if seeking signs from the battered floor. “I know this Jaghut. I recognise her work. The carelessness in the unleashing of Omtose Phellack. She was … distraught. Impatient, angry, weary of the endless paths the K’Chain Che’Malle employed in their efforts to invade, to establish colonies on every continent. She cared nothing for the civil war afflicting the K’Chain Che’Malle. These Short-Tails were fleeing their kin, seeking a refuge. I doubt she bothered asking questions.”
“Do you think,” Mappo asked, “that she knows of what has happened here?”
“No, else she would have returned. It may be that she is dead. So many are….”


The Short Tails were fleeing the K'Chain at the time the Edur and Andi came to this world, therefore if Sorrit's fragment of shadow was captured within the sky keep, it must have happened at the same time as Ganath's Ice ritual - therefore, a long long time ago.

Not recent, not connected, but coincidental.
"He was not a modest man. Contemplating suicide, he summoned a dragon". (Gothos' Folly)- Gothos
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#10 User is offline   amphibian 

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Posted 22 March 2010 - 06:31 PM

View PostHetan, on 22 March 2010 - 05:54 PM, said:

The Short Tails were fleeing the K'Chain at the time the Edur and Andi came to this world, therefore if Sorrit's fragment of shadow was captured within the sky keep, it must have happened at the same time as Ganath's Ice ritual - therefore, a long long time ago.

Not recent, not connected, but coincidental.

It may be that the shadow fragment appeared long after the ritual. As distraught as Ganath may have been, I doubt she'd overlook the immediate undermining of her ritual if the appearance and ritual were indeed concurrent.
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#11 User is offline   D'rek 

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Posted 22 March 2010 - 08:26 PM

View Postamphibian, on 22 March 2010 - 06:31 PM, said:

View PostHetan, on 22 March 2010 - 05:54 PM, said:

The Short Tails were fleeing the K'Chain at the time the Edur and Andi came to this world, therefore if Sorrit's fragment of shadow was captured within the sky keep, it must have happened at the same time as Ganath's Ice ritual - therefore, a long long time ago.

Not recent, not connected, but coincidental.

It may be that the shadow fragment appeared long after the ritual. As distraught as Ganath may have been, I doubt she'd overlook the immediate undermining of her ritual if the appearance and ritual were indeed concurrent.


I was thinking along simlar lines - Ganath easily broke out of her confinement, why couldn't she have done so earlier if her ritual had been destroyed long ago? That being said, Sorrit being crucified, then that bit of Shadow depositing Sorrit in the keep, and then Sorrit's blood/presence eroding the ice ritual, these 3 have to occur in that order but they don't have to necessarily be closely timed. Could take a while to erode the ice ritual, or could've taken a while since the crucifixtion before sorrit wound up in the keep. But it also could've been a short time between each or nearly concurrent, imo.

View Postworrywort, on 14 September 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I kinda love it when D'rek unleashes her nerd wrath, as I knew she would here. Sorry innocent bystanders, but someone's gotta be the kindling.
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#12 User is offline   Powder 

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Posted 22 March 2010 - 09:00 PM

Why now?

It makes a better story this way.

Theory crafting:
ST and CoTs let them loose. They are stacking their hands for whats to come. They needed the BH's to delay the KCNR long enough for two Old Guards to be conscripted by the KCCM. Thus putting a giant Lizzard army in the hands of 2 Malazans, which we all know is better than 1 beat up human army. You heard it here first, when in doubt and confused blame ST!

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#13 User is offline   HoosierDaddy 

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Posted 29 March 2010 - 02:44 AM

Menandore was doing something with "skykeeps" in Reaper's Gale. Perhaps the Nah'ruk were her plan to get to Kolanse in one piece, so that she could drain Kaminsod's power all for herself. Here's the quote:

Quote

'Sky keeps,' she said.

'Ah. I see. Has it begun then?'

'No, but soon.'


I'm assuming the second line is referring to the coming "Chaining"/Epic Convergence we have in DoD and presumably TCG.

This post has been edited by H.D.: 29 March 2010 - 05:40 AM

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#14 User is offline   Melnibonean Wanderer 

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Posted 31 December 2016 - 08:34 PM

Bamp because this is a topic of interest.




I wonder if the KcNR weren't biding their time to gather strength and the KCCM were loathe to execute any major plays for fear of leaving themselves vulnerable to an attack by the KcNR?
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#15 User is offline   PLUGO 

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Posted 10 February 2017 - 03:47 AM

Just finished a re-read and it struck me that maybe the KCNR are being used as pawns by the TL & FA and were perhaps helped by them in gathering forces and skykeeps.
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