[Jorram]

Apart from the usual Jaghut history discrepancies, one thing that always gets me is i totally dont get it at what points humans appear on Wu.
It used to be (almost) simple - they evolved from Imass populations who did not join the Ritual of Tellan.

There is the obscure reference in the Whirlwind's goddess thoughts about the humans having descended from Kilava's heritage but the consensus, afair, is that this is more of a poetry thing than fact since Kilava and Onrack can't really start the race by themselves and she wasnt the only one who did not participate in the ritual anyway.

Then a lot of references started appearing that the humans existed a lot of time ago. The particular problem are the Shake and the idea of Andii refugees from the Tiste-Kchain war joining a human population that already suffered Kchain inbreeding of sorts. Certainly at the time of the Tiste invasion the Ritual hadnt happened at all (prologue of MT and general timeline). The ritual happens (prologue of MOI) when even the Bonecasters barely remember the Kchain, which must be like milennia afterwards.

How is then possible that humans exist at this point? Are the proto-Shake Imass?

This post has been edited by Jorram: 20 March 2010 - 03:53 AM

[Sinisdar Toste]

i've chewed on this as well. the only thing i can think of is that there was a long intermediary period where people like the ones gruntle meets in his dream in TtH exist alongside the K'Chain, Assail and Jaghut, presumably after the t'lan ritual - the lady gruntle meets mentions that the jaghut are living in solitary towers, waiting to die. but then that raises the question of the k'chain civilizations implosion, when did it happen? i assume that this dream takes place on genebackis, the last refuge of the k'chain so it could be that they are just about to implode at this time. all very confusing

[Illuyankas]

The K'Chain breeding is from humans getting some of the Matron's nanomachines - er, I mean some of the Matron's released seeds in them from the sea, long after the Matron in question died and thousands of years before the present day. So humanity doesn't need to overlap with the KCCM.

[Jorram]

This is of course an option and the reason why witches STILL pop up amidst the Shake, but i am damn sure either in DoD or in RG someone muses that the Shake must have "lived in the shadow of KCCM" or something. And a pretty knowable character at that, so lets not go into the "just a point of view" territory. Alas I dont have the quotes ;/

Besides how about the Tiste Andii who reportedly found refuge and mixed up with those humans (as opposed to the humans somehow appearing on the same place milennia after and mixing with the Andii).

Oh and btw by all accounts the last hideout of the KCCM is the Wastelands granted that they are kind of.. still there
I'd forgotten about Gruntle's dream. I knew it there it was more than once mentions of humans and KCCM together! Thanks.

[borstalboy]

it might be that the shore andii were there for a long time n the kccm infestation had already occured n the humans arrived l8r n mixed with them.
the letherii colonists arrived from seven cities during the first empire, but the aboriginal humans might have been there for much longer...


RG n DoD seem to indicate that the KCCM used to live in the western letherii continent n gradually migrated east. it was during this that they encountered the awl, who were movin west...

the monkey folk gruntle encounters in his dream seem even more primitive than the imass.

another confusin bit is kallor's (a human born 200,000 yrs after the tellann ritual) claim that he was around when the imass were just children (GotM n MoI). most probably typical kallor b.s.

[worry]

You also have to take into account just how much KCCM sperm was preserved when Gothos froze the region.

[Illuyankas]

 borstalboy, on 20 March 2010 - 10:53 AM, said:

the monkey folk gruntle encounters in his dream seem even more primitive than the imass.

another confusin bit is kallor's (a human born 200,000 yrs after the tellann ritual) claim that he was around when the imass were just children (GotM n MoI). most probably typical kallor b.s.

The Eres.

The knowledge of a Second Ritual has turned that from Kallor boasting to plausible.

[borstalboy]

 Illuyankas, on 20 March 2010 - 04:45 PM, said:

 borstalboy, on 20 March 2010 - 10:53 AM, said:

the monkey folk gruntle encounters in his dream seem even more primitive than the imass.

another confusin bit is kallor's (a human born 200,000 yrs after the tellann ritual) claim that he was around when the imass were just children (GotM n MoI). most probably typical kallor b.s.

The Eres.

The knowledge of a Second Ritual has turned that from Kallor boasting to plausible.

really? they were eres? not somethin else? u think they were the same as the deragoth followers?

the second ritual was an attempt by the few remainin members of an ancient n once numerous people. kallor certainly knew of the the original ritual n the t'lan imass, so his claim doesn't make sense. unless of course he was around when the imass actually were "children", more than 300,000 yrs ago. i think vintage kallor b.s.

[Jorram]

This is the quote in question.

Quote

(Sandalath) ...Some Andii survived. And it seems there were more than just K'Chain Che'Malle dwelling in that region. There were humans.
(Withal) The Shake.
(Sandalath) People who would become the Shake, once they took in the surviving Andii.
...
[theory about all the Andii leaving the Shake to found Bluerose population]
...
(Sandalath)... The taint, Withal, of the KCCM. And so, before we Tiste even arrived, they lived in the shadow of the Che'Malle. And it was not in isolation. No, there was some form of contact, some kind of relationship. There must have been.

DoD, UK HC, p. 228/229

Admittedly, she is just guessing, but it never occurs to her that the Andii might have come FIRST on that shore. And it well should, if it was right out impossible that humans existed at that time (as we were supposed to think).

More:

Quote

(Bottle) .. [the Eres'al] conquered the entire world.
(Quick Ben) So what happened to them?
(Bottle) I don't know. I think, maybe, we happened to them.

DoD, UK HC, p. 225

Again, he is guessing, but again QB and Bottle have both shown an extensive knowledge about everything.

Quote

(Toc to Tool) After the Ritual, well, you chose the wrong enemy for your endless war of vengeance. It would have been more just, don't you think, to proclaim a war against us humans.

DoD, UK HC, p. 486

This is not even guessing. It clearly states that humans existed of the time of the Ritual and Tool doesnt deny it.

So my understanding is that SE drifted from the original idea of humans evolving from the last remnants of the Imass after the ritual (as it was implied in the earlier books) and all that "Founding races" thing (which was compromised as far back as putting TTT into the story and then even further with the Eres) and settled for something more closely resembling our own history. As has been discussed before, the Imass resemble Neandthertals, while humans resemble Cromagnons (Homo Sapiens) with the Eres the common link before them (Homo Erectus or whatever). On Earth Neanderthals had strong populations for a time and for a time they shared the world with Cromagnons but eventually died out and probably SE has used this very same analogy for the Imass and humans on Wu but indeed I am still a bit surprised he would go as long back with placing humans as the dying out of the Eres and the KCCM.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

About the last bit with Toc and Tool, I thought of it as "after you made the Ritual and wiped most Jaghut instead of cotinuing searching for them, you should have killed humans".
But, yeah, we can agree that SE left the original humans-are-derived from-Imass-theory behind at some point, probaly when he introduced the Eres.

[borstalboy]

yup. does seem SE altered his view... iirc doesn't ereko say somethin to the tune of the humans spreadin all over from jacuruku?

[Sinisdar Toste]

None of this has to mean that there isn't imass blood in human ancestry, though it strongly suggests it. They could have interbred at any point in the millenias long time frame were talking about here.

The NOs who released dejim did omit humanity when recounting those races who bear threads of imass blood and dryhjna, the only being to link kilava and humans, iirc, is insane and her memories untrustworthy. Kilavas son is ulshun pral who lives in the refugium so how could he spawn humankind?

Its possible that humans are simply the descendants of the eres who spread across the globe, making it possible for humanity to emerge in different times, places and with slightly different ancestries. Nicely solving all these timeline issues

[Garet Jax]

I definitely believe that true humans are supposed to be the descendants of the Eres. I seem to remember Bottle quoting something to the effect that the Eres'al was somehow the last of the pure humans, before we evolved as a species that viewed extermination of competitors as vital to survival.

Again, it's only a quote (and I don't have it handy now) but Bottle does seem to have a direct link to the Eres'al and her knowledge.

[Jorram]

In the earlier books there is a fair share of quotes linking humans to Imass. I can't quote them unfortunately, but it was the status quo that they descended from the Imass.

Even in the later books i remember a human being called "child of the Imass" from an ancient being (somebody recall that?)
There is Raest in GotM, noting that the language of humans is a twist of the Imass' one

I like the current theory better anyway.
And yeah, they could have interbreeded. Also, it could be said that Imass gave humans civilization (the whole First Empire, fire, life, yadda yadda thing).

[Hellian's Keg Lid]

In DoD Tool calls them children as inheritors rather than blood kin, and in the scenes Olar Ethil inflicts on him there is a long talk about blood on the tongue i.e. human extermination of Imass elsewhere, other worlds.

I never quite got the Kilava rant by Dryjhna, but then she was also batshit insane so take her belief with a pinch of salt?

[Freestride]

To what I have followed the descendents of the tellan imass were always the barghast(please ignore spelling). Humans were around with the imass but in different areas of the world the imass left the world for us when they performed the ritual and declared war on at the time the only other known race to still exist the jaghut.

[HoosierDaddy]

Quote

The K'Chain breeding is from humans getting some of the Matron's nanomachines - er, I mean some of the Matron's released seeds in them from the sea, long after the Matron in question died and thousands of years before the present day. So humanity doesn't need to overlap with the KCCM.

I can't remember if this is during the civil war, during the Tiste invasion, or whether they are running concurrently at some points in the globe.

We also have a scene of the Deragoth and those who would become humans (eres from the description) stopping K'Chain invasions into Seven Cities in a House of Chains dream "flashback"with Osserc and L'oric. Considering this is probably during "pre-K'chain civil war" because of the expansion, I think it's a safe bet that humans came from the eres.

Quote

To what I have followed the descendents of the tellan imass were always the barghast(please ignore spelling). Humans were around with the imass but in different areas of the world the imass left the world for us when they performed the ritual and declared war on at the time the only other known race to still exist the jaghut.

Barghast, trell, etc. We know humans existed at the same time and place as Imass because humans are hunting Imass down in DoD flashbacks. Also, TTT and FA are still present in the world at the same time as the Jaghut and Imass.

Edit: Welcome to the forum Freestride!

This post has been edited by H.D.: 28 March 2010 - 04:34 AM

[worry]

 Freestride, on 28 March 2010 - 03:51 AM, said:

To what I have followed the descendents of the tellan imass were always the barghast(please ignore spelling). Humans were around with the imass but in different areas of the world the imass left the world for us when they performed the ritual and declared war on at the time the only other known race to still exist the jaghut.

left the world for "us" eh?

[cleantoe]

I always thought that humans were descendants of the Eres, those furry human-like/ape-like predecessors.

It makes sense with evolution and is the most plausible explanation. Humans evolved from the Eres. Either that, or humans are, in fact, from another realm that time has forgotten.

[Jorram]

It's just that the former books seemed to imply that Imass evolved from Eres and humans evolved from the Imass ("child of the Imass" etc).