[worry]

He's the Malazan equivalent of a Jehovah's Witness.

[Lousy]

Agree with Mastodon about Karsa and Cotillian. I still don't like Crokus, not since he began his transformation into Cutter(what a stupid name) ... he may however be able to redeem himself in this reader's eyes depending on how he handles that new task...

[ansible]

Moby, on 09 July 2010 - 06:29 AM, said:

Abyss, on 14 June 2010 - 06:09 PM, said:

Two possibilities i've never quite decided between on the 'what did Lostara pick up' q...

1) Nothing at all. it was just a fakeout so she could headsmack Pearl; or,

2) it was one of those talon pieces, and Cotillion's signal to Lostara to ditch Pearl.

Could be wrong on both, but there they are.

- Abyss, ...because wherever you are, there you are.

Cotillion states that it's not his, but keeps it, which makes me think it's not a "fakeout" and I don't think he would lie here, which makes me think it was a talon or a shadow diamond or quick's acorn.

I have to agree with Moby. It was obviously something, because she gives it to Cotillion, who says he knows whose it is and then keeps it. Cotillion is actually surprised that Lostara knocked Pearl out, so it was not a signal from him to do anything. Cotillion also mentions that Pearl will be useful on the night of the convergence, so he doesn't want Pearl "ditched," so to speak.

My initial reaction is also that it is Quick Ben's acorn, but this doesn't totally work for a number of reasons. 1) Lostara recognizes it. She's met QB before, but recognizing his acorns? Unless this is some known tactic of the Shadow Cult, she shouldn't understand what it is. 2) QB is not on great terms with Cotillion/ST, even though Kalam sort of is, so giving some of his power to the rulers of Shadow doesn't seem like a smart idea. 3) The way that Kalam receives it. It drops mysteriously from a tree. Cotillion shows up not much later to save Kalam's ass from some shadow wraiths and then even gives him some ribless crossbows. Why not just deliver the acorn at the same time?

It seems like something important, too - Lostara only knocks Pearl out after he inquires about the object, and her explanation for doing so to Cotillion is, "He was about to interfere. Unpredictably. I assumed you wished the path clear." Now, theoretically, it could have just been a fakeout and she was referring to him interfering in a different way, but prior to this incident they are agreed about which way to go and when to stop, and the only thing that changes is Pearl asking about the object. Therefore it seems like him interacting with it would be the interference. If it was QB's acorn, then perhaps the acorn tactic is somehow associated with the Shadow Cult, like I suggested above, which is why Lostara believes it to be Cotillion's.

It could be a Talon symbol, but I doubt it. When Cotillion first approaches Lostara, she mentions the Talons and he is confused by her intimation that they are still around; he does the same thing to Kalam in Raraku. However, on Drift Avalii, Cotillion tells Cutter he has agents already working to take down the Master of the Talon, and he reveals to Shadowthrone that he knows exactly who the Talon Master is.

My best guess: Cotillion knows Kalam wants to get Korbolo Dom, which they briefly mention when Cotillion recruits Kalam to find out who is assaulting the Shadow Realm. Lostara eventually spills the beans to Cotillion about the Talons. Cotillion finds Hawl on Drift Avalii and puts the Talon mess together. After he saves Kalam from Bidithal, Cotillion decides to put his two teams together and orders the delivery of Dom to Pearl. The only thing that doesn't make sense is:

House of Chains, Tor MMPB, p.938 said:

Kalam began tying the unconscious man's hands. "Where are we taking him?"

"I've a thought to that."

Quick Ben is already in on the plan to capture Korbolo Dom, and he's even the one who gives Kalam the idea to give Dom to Pearl. (Quick mentions to Korbolo that Tayschrenn sent him ahead, but it sounds to me like he's bullshitting for Korbolo's sake.) So even if Kalam and Quick were planning this from the beginning, QB shouldn't know about Pearl unless Cotillion told him (since Cotillion is pretty much the only one who knows Pearl and Lostara are in Raraku). This means my 2) above might not be true, and QB really is working with Cotillion. This in turn lends credence to the acorn theory.

My wild theory: Kalam had one of Quick's acorns with him on his way to Raraku - the classic shaved knuckle. When he was attacked by the enkar'al, his pack is shredded and the acorn is lost in the desert, fifteen hundred paces from the Whirlwind Wall. Kalam gets transported to Pust's temple without a chance to retrieve the acorn. Lostara stumbles upon the acorn right after Sha'ik drops the Whirlwind's barrier and believes it to be Cotillion's, either due to her Shadow Cult heritage or some other weird unknown reason. Cotillion recognizes Quick's handiwork - which is why he says he knows who it belongs to (Kalam). Cotillion communicates with Quick enough to inform him about Pearl and Lostara being in Raraku, also hunting the Talon's master. Cotillion then drops the acorn to Kalam from an oak - Kalam mentions the irony of the acorn-oak connection - because he isn't ready to physically manifest in Raraku's oasis yet, due to the convergence. The rest follows.

There are some gaps there. Chronologically, it works. But if the theory is wrong, some questions remain: How does Quick know Pearl is in Raraku and where to find him? How does he know Pearl is searching for the Talon master? How does Quick get one of his special acorns to suddenly appear in the heart of the Whirlwind goddess's power when he is supposedly with the Bridgeburners in Ehrlitan?

I have confused myself with this post.

[Toes]

They know Pearl is in Raraku because they find a pearl on Henaras' body, not sure how they would know he's after the Talon, but then maybe they just assume he'd be interested seeing as he's a Claw.
As for the object, I just assumed it was a diamond that Kalam had dropped, and when Cotillion said he knew who's it was, he meant he knew it was Kalam's. Could be way off, but that's what I thought as I read it.

My only confusion is to do with Apsalar and Crokus' situation at the end.
Firstly, Cotillion talks about balance in this new task, but if it's balance with Heboric, Baudin and Felisin, there was only 3 of them. This new group would be 5 including Greyfrog.

Secondly, I don't really know what occurs to Crokus here, and what Apsalar has actually done/where she's gone? Especially the line "From her.... to you."

Crokus: "Cotillion, this notion of balance.... Something has occured to me --"
The Rope: "From her.... to you. Aye."
Crokus: "Did she think that do you think?"
The Rope: "All too clearly I'm afraid."
Crokus: "I loved her you know. I still do."
The Rope: "So, you do not wonder why she has left?"
Crokus: "No, I don't"

Finally, what does RAFO mean? Read ahead, find out is my guess..
Toes.

This post has been edited by Toes: 18 August 2010 - 09:16 PM

[D'rek]

"From her... to you." >>> becoming an assassin. Crokus did it because she did. She left because she didn't want Crokus "ruining his life" like that because of her.

This post has been edited by D'rek: 20 August 2010 - 03:26 PM

[James Hutton]

Cobbles, on 19 March 2010 - 08:24 PM, said:

e) What happens the night Raraku awakens? Heboric gets saved by three people. IIRC one man and two women. Who were they? I can't match it up with any group. Maybe, I'm just too stupid to see it. Kalam meets an old pal who puts up a distraction before Korbolo's tent. Who was it (some dead Bridgeburner?) Is either of that RAFO? Maybe I just missed it during my reading, in that case, please fill me in.

While I was re-reading this part, I tried really hard to think of people that are known to have died, and by the way the two women, who save Heboric, talk, I thought they might have been the two marines that guarded Silverfox voluntarily and were killed by Kallor at the end of MoI. Anybody else has this feeling?

[Azathmaster]

I just finished HoC, and the book reallygot me interested in one small seeming thing, the bones on the uniforms of the 14ths marines. The bridgeburners had to go through raraku when it was totally dry and hot, so their bridges were burned, and fire came to represent them, but then the 14ths marines had bones to represent them instead of burned bridges, and they were in rarakuy when it refilled with water, so what will they be called? After hearing the titles only to the other books and making connections, it seems like the most likely is "the bonehunters," which is the title of a book, which takes place after HoC.(MT isn't really connected to the other books it seems.)

[Azathmaster]

James Hutton, on 17 September 2010 - 10:52 AM, said:

Cobbles, on 19 March 2010 - 08:24 PM, said:

e) What happens the night Raraku awakens? Heboric gets saved by three people. IIRC one man and two women. Who were they? I can't match it up with any group. Maybe, I'm just too stupid to see it. Kalam meets an old pal who puts up a distraction before Korbolo's tent. Who was it (some dead Bridgeburner?) Is either of that RAFO? Maybe I just missed it during my reading, in that case, please fill me in.

While I was re-reading this part, I tried really hard to think of people that are known to have died, and by the way the two women, who save Heboric, talk, I thought they might have been the two marines that guarded Silverfox voluntarily and were killed by Kallor at the end of MoI. Anybody else has this feeling?

Yeah, that makes sense. I never thought of that...

[zenMichael]

Azathmaster, on 19 December 2010 - 02:31 AM, said:

I just finished HoC, and the book reallygot me interested in one small seeming thing, the bones on the uniforms of the 14ths marines. The bridgeburners had to go through raraku when it was totally dry and hot, so their bridges were burned, and fire came to represent them, but then the 14ths marines had bones to represent them instead of burned bridges, and they were in rarakuy when it refilled with water, so what will they be called? After hearing the titles only to the other books and making connections, it seems like the most likely is "the bonehunters," which is the title of a book, which takes place after HoC.(MT isn't really connected to the other books it seems.)

you're close with your guess on who the bonehunters will be, but not quite. Read (not surprisingly) tBH to find out more.

And MT is connected to the other books quite a bit. Obviously there's the Trull connection with Book 4, and we know by now that the adventures in that water realm were caused by Trull's people (explored in MT) & ties into the Stormy/Gesler/Truth subplot in DG. Beyond that, then end of tBH will begin connecting the two plot lines & the last 50% of RG will tie them together pretty intensely. Trying to stay vague to avoid any sort of spoiler-y info, but MT isn't just like 'hey, i like trull, why not just hang out with his people for a book even tho that has nothing to do w/anything?' and if the CG storyline is the preeminent plot of the book (and the title of book 10 somewhat implies that), definitely MT ties in through that. Again, I won't say how he's involved, but he's in there quite a bit.

[Khellendros]

Lostara picks up an acorn that Kalam had earlier dropped.

She gives it to Cotillion.

Cotillion then gives it back to Kalam (drops it on his lap) because he'll know that Kalam will need it to summon Quick Ben.

[zenMichael]

Khellendros & ansible have it right. I'm rereading right now & just got to this part. What people keep forgetting to mention (and I wouldn't have remembered had I not just read it last night) is that when the acorn falls from the tree & Kalam takes it he says something along the lines of, 'glad i'm not in your service anymore' or something to that effect, pretty heavily insinuating it's Cots who dropped it to him. Also when Lostara gives it to Cots, he says, 'no, it's not mine, but I know who it belongs to' & the acorn-dropping scene happens like 2 scenes later. My assumption is it's shiny because it's Shadow-infused magical or what have you (hence why Lostara would assume it belonged to Cots). I'm not sure if it's actually in the text that Kalam lost it when the enkaral (sp?) had him, but it makes a lot of sense.

Rereading the Cots/Lostara scene also totally fed into another wild crazy theory of mine, but that's an argument for a different post.

[ThinkingMalaz]

I always had the theory that Lostara found Baudins Talon and returned it to Cotillion. The acorn story makes sense but for one thing... Why does Lostara recognize it?

[Sinisdar Toste]

as a former member of the shadow temple, lostara might have recognized the 'stink' of shadow about it, or known that acorns and shadow are connected, though that one seems quite unlikely.

[ThinkingMalaz]

Sinisdar Toste, on 28 January 2011 - 07:38 PM, said:

as a former member of the shadow temple, lostara might have recognized the 'stink' of shadow about it, or known that acorns and shadow are connected, though that one seems quite unlikely.

Hmmm that is a plausible explanation.... The stink of shadow bit... as far as i know acorns are not linked to shadow they are linked to Quick Ben who occasionally uses shadow but defo not of shadow

[Smoked Out Knuckle Sammy]

Lousy, on 22 July 2010 - 09:12 AM, said:

. . . I still don't like Crokus, not since he began his transformation into Cutter(what a stupid name) ...

Yeah, it smacks a little of trying too hard to sound tough. But why would an assassin choose a name that's also used by low-level healers?

[worry]

He didn't choose it, he earned the name Cutter, as between DG and HoC he spent time doing surgery in a MASH unit. I mean, it's at least as good as "Hawkeye" or "Trapper".

[Azathmaster]

zenMichael, on 20 December 2010 - 12:16 AM, said:

Azathmaster, on 19 December 2010 - 02:31 AM, said:

I just finished HoC, and the book reallygot me interested in one small seeming thing, the bones on the uniforms of the 14ths marines. The bridgeburners had to go through raraku when it was totally dry and hot, so their bridges were burned, and fire came to represent them, but then the 14ths marines had bones to represent them instead of burned bridges, and they were in rarakuy when it refilled with water, so what will they be called? After hearing the titles only to the other books and making connections, it seems like the most likely is "the bonehunters," which is the title of a book, which takes place after HoC.(MT isn't really connected to the other books it seems.)

you're close with your guess on who the bonehunters will be, but not quite. Read (not surprisingly) tBH to find out more.

And MT is connected to the other books quite a bit. Obviously there's the Trull connection with Book 4, and we know by now that the adventures in that water realm were caused by Trull's people (explored in MT) & ties into the Stormy/Gesler/Truth subplot in DG. Beyond that, then end of tBH will begin connecting the two plot lines & the last 50% of RG will tie them together pretty intensely. Trying to stay vague to avoid any sort of spoiler-y info, but MT isn't just like 'hey, i like trull, why not just hang out with his people for a book even tho that has nothing to do w/anything?' and if the CG storyline is the preeminent plot of the book (and the title of book 10 somewhat implies that), definitely MT ties in through that. Again, I won't say how he's involved, but he's in there quite a bit.

I'm on RG now and everything is starting to make sense. I wont give info on the other books on this forum to avoid spoilers.

[Azazello]

Mastodon Empire, on 17 July 2010 - 06:49 PM, said:

- I didn't like Karsa at first much either, but grew to like him at then end. Wonder where he's going from here?

I generally hate the "One day I will lead my people, and we will conquer the world!" attitude frequently found in unstoppable barbarian minority warriors in fantasy in general, and that had me skeptical about Karsa for a long time. I do like the idea that the Crippled God sought to make him his own instrument, however, I'm still somewhat worried about having such a ridiculously overpowered character who lives entirely by his own rules roaming the world freely (at least Icarium has his guardian to stop his rage). There's a risk that such a character becomes, in effect, a living deus ex machina: whenever you need a powerful character knocked off, just bring in Karsa Orlong.

Quote

- Grew to like Cruckus/Cutter more than i thought i would. Can't wait to see what happens with him and his new task.

I'm glad we had a Crokus/Cutter POV in HoC. I thought the character suffered without having his own POV in Deadhouse Gates. With Fiddler our primary window into Crokus in that book, I felt the lad came off as just some foolish, obsessive bodyguard to a girl who frankly doesn't need one. In GotM and HoC, where we can see into his head, we can see a more thoughtful mind at work IMO. I particularly like that, unlike many of the central figures in the series he is not caught up in his own self-importance or his place in the events taking place. He does what he is asked to do, not for the sake of vengeance, power, or some misguided notion of personal destiny, but for reasons I think much more relatable to the audience, such as to bring him closer to a young woman he cares about.

Quote

- I guess I'll ask, just because I don't quite remember. Why did Kalam deliver deliver the book in DH which would start the Whirlwind? I mean, his intentions can sometimes be ambiguous, but i don't think it was what ended up resulting. Any help?

This was one of the things that bothered me about Deadhouse Gates and House of Chains. Kalam doesn't really reflect on his part in unleashing the Whirlwind, nor why he believes it must now be stopped. My impression was that, at the time, Kalam delivered the Holy Book of Dryjhna because he had patriotic notions of helping free his homeland and trusted himself more than anybody else to make sure it got to Sha'ik -- he was on his way to kill Laseen after all.

Sometime before he arrives at Malaz City, however, he appears to have changed his mind about the Whirlwind. Not only does his brief conversation with Laseen seem to include an approval of her anger regarding what is occurring in Seven Cities, but he makes no effort to convince his fellow Bridgeburner Fiddler to not reenlist in Tavore's punitive force. And then of course in HoC he's personally involved in trying to stop it.

Kalam witnesses a number of atrocities committed by the Whirlwind "horde" (as opposed to Sha'ik Elder's army in Raraku) -- there's the crucifixion of all the children Shadowthrone later "saves," and the behavior of the Whirlwind bandits he rides with for a time -- but it seems we are supposed to implicitly accept that Kalam changes his mind about the rebellion after seeing these things.

I didn't need him to fall to his knees in the sand and yell up to the sky "What have I done?" but given that Kalam is a POV character, I would have expected more periodic introspection about the part he played and his conclusion that he had made a mistake. Just one of those places where the execution was not what it could have been IMO.

[Use Of Weapons]

If there's one profession that should never indulge in introspection, it's assassins. I find it much more believable that Kalam (and the other assassins apart from Dancer) that we encounter never really indulge in the philosophising that most others do. They are the essence of practicality.

[Jegna Til]

Again on the issue of what was picked up by Lostara when she and Pearl were in the imperial warren. I've got this niggling feeling that because of it being shiny, acorn sized I keep wondering if perhaps it is a Finnest. I could be wrong but in GoTM it seems to me that is exactly how a Finnest gets described. QB may have been in the warren beforehand, and it falls out of pocket, maybe he intentionally drops it and that is why Pearls attention is distracted and Cots is so interested in it. Would that make any sense?