Malazan Empire: Finished HoC: liked it but have a few questions - Malazan Empire

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Finished HoC: liked it but have a few questions Continuation of MoI thread

#1 User is offline   Cobbles 

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Posted 19 March 2010 - 08:24 PM

Hello guys,

ok, it took me a while, but I did finish it in the end.

Some questions are addressed in other threads, so I might look into those to seek answers. In particular:

a) Who crucified the Otataral dragon. Pearl and Lostara wander through the Imperial warren, they fall in some kind of hole (it is unclear to me whether it brings them to another warren or not) where they see a crucified Otataral dragon. The weird thing is Otataral is the antithesis of magic, while dragons are inherently magical creatures. So it's a big mystery. And let me guess, it's a RAFO?

:) Thyr, Meanas, Rashan: we hear musings by many how light, darkness, shadow belong together. Ok, I get it. We have three warrens, we have three Tiste. We have hounds of shadow, hounds of darkness (well, we had, to be precise). Any bets there's hounds of light? RAFO?

c) What did Lostara pick up? Pearl gets really curious, but when he tries to peek, wham! So, what was it? Is it RAFO?

d) Corabb. The luckiest man on earth. He's a cat, really? Nine lifes? Or maybe he's the incestual child of the twin jesters? Is there more to it, and if yes, is it RAFO?

e) What happens the night Raraku awakens? Heboric gets saved by three people. IIRC one man and two women. Who were they? I can't match it up with any group. Maybe, I'm just too stupid to see it. Kalam meets an old pal who puts up a distraction before Korbolo's tent. Who was it (some dead Bridgeburner?) Is either of that RAFO? Maybe I just missed it during my reading, in that case, please fill me in.

f) Who's the traveler on Drift Island? He sounds like someone I should recognize. Am I too stupid to see it? If so, please just fill me in.

g) What about the trapped souls on their way to earth. You know, those whom Heboric sees? I don't understand. RAFO?

h) Oserc? He seems weary of the Liosan (then again, who wouldn't). What is he doing precisely?

ok, enough questions, let me tell you about my impressions of the book.

1) Karsa. This character really grew on me. I really disliked him in the first part. Egocentric, and pretty stupid (except for his combat tactics). He developed (and mellowed) quite a bit, which made him a far more likable person. The whole start of the book had a bit of old-testament vibe for me. It was different from anything else in the series, but I liked it.

2) In the second part, the story really picks up. The army gets on the way (more incompetent noble officers, hello Ranal, bye-bye Ranal), Trull and Onrack get moving, Kalam, Cutter/Apsalar, Pearl/Lostara are set on their respective paths. Hounds are released, Liosans arrive (gahd they're stupid). Imass are being Imass. Fissures in the Oasis break open. Things progress. The knot gets tied.

3) Some (minor?) plots resolved. The shadow throne is secured (Rake's brother? kicks the bucket, but who's the traveler)? Osserc is found, but what's he doing? Crokus and Apsalar drift apart (no pun intended), Kalam has an excursion and frees some demon (curiosity almost killed the cat). Karsa meets Icarium, Mappo, (that has unfinished business written all over it) frees a Jaghut, a Forkrul Assail, gets a stone sword and a pony. And finally, scorpions teach us that size is not important.

4) The end. A dreaded convergence. I'm not sure I got all of that. Let's see. Korbolo +Reloe plan to betray Sha'ik and return to the Empire. Pearl and Quick Ben are not having any of that. The bridgeburners ascend (thanks Tanno, but how can I get the song outta my head) Raraku awakens and the dogslayers are killed. Gamet joins the ghosts (btw. should we call them dogslayer-slayers?). Ah, somehow Febryl was part if that, too. Bidithal, who was trying to usurp the Emurlahn warren fragment really got what was coming. Very satisfying. Loric, Leoman and the desert warriors hightail it, because they know they've lost. Will they make a re-appearance or simply blend in the 7C crowd? Karsa kills two mages, two puppies, then runs out of stuff to kill. He makes peace with the Malazans then rides into the sunset (do I see him again, please?). Pearl and Lostara kill a witch, find Felisin, get Korbolo wrapped up as a present, but arrive too late to tell Tavore. The Liosan get to see the world but just want to go home again. Ah and let me summarize the whirlwind goddess by "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned". Talk about holding a grudge.

On a deeper level, I might have missed some connections. The Imass we see hunting renegades, are they specifically after the seven gods (now only 6) of the Teblor? If so, it took them quite a while. How do the Tiste Edur connect with the Imass renegades? Specifically, why does Trull think he and Onrack should hunt together? Why do Onrack, Trull and the Imass end up at the first throne (I know the renegades are making for it, but they aren't really there, (yet?))? I know that Onrack's (ex?-)wife is basically the whirlwind goddess, but beside this connection, what does it have to do with the main part of the story? What's the point of Crokus and Apsalar's story once they meet up with Iskaral Pust? Karsa's journey to the Jhag Odhan also leaves tons of threads dangling. Btw. it is Raraku who owns the fragment of Emurlahn in the end, isn't it? The whirldwind goddess got chained and stabbed. So she's out. The chained god gets nothing. Which leaves Raraku, whatever that means. Where does the water come from? Is it from the Nascent? Are the two fragments connected somehow? Or does the water just come from old memories (however that works).

Finally, the tragic part. Tavore kills her sister. I think she hasn't realized it so far. But there's way too many people in the know for it to stay secret, I would guess. It's sad, because Felisin really was back to being Felisin. It could have been avoided. It's almost like a Greek tragedy.

Anway, off to Midnight Tides. I bought it, looked at the dramatis personae, and found very few familiar names. I guess this one doesn't connect very much, does it?

PS the artwork. Don't like it too much. I guess the dude is Karsa with the blood sword (so it's early in the series). Who are the hounds and the dude they're attacking? I don't recall specifically such a scene in the book. There's too many hounds, so it's not the shadow hounds. Maybe it's from very early in the book where Karsa & co 'turn' a pack of Teblor hounds and set them on other Teblor? Odd choice of scene for cover art since it's pretty insignificant.

Thanks for reading my ramblings.

This post has been edited by Cobbles: 19 March 2010 - 08:25 PM

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#2 User is offline   Bauchelain the Evil 

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Posted 19 March 2010 - 08:44 PM

View PostCobbles, on 19 March 2010 - 08:24 PM, said:

Hello guys,

ok, it took me a while, but I did finish it in the end.

Some questions are addressed in other threads, so I might look into those to seek answers. In particular:

a) Who crucified the Otataral dragon. Pearl and Lostara wander through the Imperial warren, they fall in some kind of hole (it is unclear to me whether it brings them to another warren or not) where they see a crucified Otataral dragon. The weird thing is Otataral is the antithesis of magic, while dragons are inherently magical creatures. So it's a big mystery. And let me guess, it's a RAFO?

It's actually said that it was the other dragons that chained the Otataral dragon. The reason being, as you said, that dragons are magical creature(more about this later) and they don't want a gigantic creature made of otataral around For more about this, RAFO(lol).

:) Thyr, Meanas, Rashan: we hear musings by many how light, darkness, shadow belong together. Ok, I get it. We have three warrens, we have three Tiste. We have hounds of shadow, hounds of darkness (well, we had, to be precise). Any bets there's hounds of light? RAFO?

RAFO

c) What did Lostara pick up? Pearl gets really curious, but when he tries to peek, wham! So, what was it? Is it RAFO?

It's actually something we don't knownor I think it will ever be told us.

d) Corabb. The luckiest man on earth. He's a cat, really? Nine lifes? Or maybe he's the incestual child of the twin jesters? Is there more to it, and if yes, is it RAFO?

You'll find out in The Bonehunters

e) What happens the night Raraku awakens? Heboric gets saved by three people. IIRC one man and two women. Who were they? I can't match it up with any group. Maybe, I'm just too stupid to see it. Kalam meets an old pal who puts up a distraction before Korbolo's tent. Who was it (some dead Bridgeburner?) Is either of that RAFO? Maybe I just missed it during my reading, in that case, please fill me in.

Basically,yes the ghosts of the dead Bridgeburners, who were made in Rararaku and who ascended thanks to the Tanno Spiritwalker song and Paran's blessing,pop up and butcher Shaik's followers.

f) Who's the traveler on Drift Island? He sounds like someone I should recognize. Am I too stupid to see it? If so, please just fill me in.

You can arrive to the solution. I fyou really want to know it
Spoiler


g) What about the trapped souls on their way to earth. You know, those whom Heboric sees? I don't understand. RAFO?

RAFO, although we yet don't have a final answer

h) Oserc? He seems weary of the Liosan (then again, who wouldn't). What is he doing precisely?

That's the point. Osserc is doing nothing. He is sort of apatic and doesn't care about what is happening in the world being more interested in learning what his dream warren can teach him.

ok, enough questions, let me tell you about my impressions of the book.



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#3 User is offline   Cobbles 

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Posted 19 March 2010 - 09:28 PM

Hello Bauchelain,

thanks for the answers.

About the Otataral dragon, I see the point. Maybe my question was worded too narrow. There's a whole more mystery to it. How can such a creature exist in the first place? How did it get crucified ... etc. All RAFO I guess. Well, at least I hope there IS answers eventually.

About the traveler. That's the one person I would have guessed, if pressed for an answer. Not because it's obvious in any way, but more or less because out of all the guys we have heard of, but not seen, he's the one who might fit the bill best. I was close to actually mention him in my post, but then thought it would make me look even dumber if I was wrong. So, should I think of him as some kind of ascendant since he pops up pretty much alive when everybody thinks he's dead? If so, I would have to puzzle out the house/aspect. Hm. Food for thought here.

This post has been edited by Cobbles: 19 March 2010 - 09:28 PM

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#4 User is offline   Defiance 

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Posted 19 March 2010 - 10:27 PM

A lot of the plot threads that seemingly went nowhere in this book are much bigger/resolved in Bonehunters.

Spoilering the following just to be safe, but it's really not much of a spoiler.

Spoiler

This post has been edited by Defiance: 19 March 2010 - 10:29 PM

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#5 User is offline   Sinisdar Toste 

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Posted 19 March 2010 - 10:28 PM

on Traveller:
Spoiler


edit: also, most of the people in this book return in tBH and yes, the water returns to raraku because of it's reawakening. dryjhna and the apocalypse didn't belong to raraku. it has it's own, older power.

This post has been edited by Sinisdar Toste: 19 March 2010 - 10:31 PM

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#6 User is offline   Hetan 

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Posted 22 March 2010 - 08:12 AM

Regarding the Otataral dragon - it exists because it must in terms of balance. If dragons are elemental forces, then the force of negation must also exist.
"He was not a modest man. Contemplating suicide, he summoned a dragon". (Gothos' Folly)- Gothos
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#7 User is offline   Findarato 

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Posted 14 June 2010 - 03:49 PM

c) What did Lostara pick up? Pearl gets really curious, but when he tries to peek, wham! So, what was it? Is it RAFO?


The way Cotillion reacts to the fact she found it, I figured it was one of the pearls Kalam had got from him. Therefore he wanted it back.
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#8 User is offline   Silk 

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Posted 14 June 2010 - 04:20 PM

either that or it was an acorn?
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#9 User is offline   Findarato 

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Posted 14 June 2010 - 05:36 PM

View PostSilk, on 14 June 2010 - 04:20 PM, said:

either that or it was an acorn?


Why would Cotillion be interested in an acorn? besides Lostara said it was shiny. :thumbsup:
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#10 User is offline   Abyss 

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Posted 14 June 2010 - 06:09 PM

Two possibilities i've never quite decided between on the 'what did Lostara pick up' q...

1) Nothing at all. it was just a fakeout so she could headsmack Pearl; or,

2) it was one of those talon pieces, and Cotillion's signal to Lostara to ditch Pearl.

Could be wrong on both, but there they are.

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#11 User is offline   Findarato 

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Posted 15 June 2010 - 07:48 AM

View PostAbyss, on 14 June 2010 - 06:09 PM, said:

Two possibilities i've never quite decided between on the 'what did Lostara pick up' q...

1) Nothing at all. it was just a fakeout so she could headsmack Pearl; or,

2) it was one of those talon pieces, and Cotillion's signal to Lostara to ditch Pearl.

Could be wrong on both, but there they are.

- Abyss, ...because wherever you are, there you are.


yes could have been a talon piece, but who would have lost one? I always figured even the smallest details had some meaning in SE's books, so a talon falling from around someone's neck would have been mentioned somewhere. The only one I remember was Baudin's and it was already found.

I have just reread HOC, and I found it even more awesome than the first time. and still I have some questions left. One is about the Deragoth and Onrack. Why was it breaking his vow of the ritual when he freed them? Or was it the fact he lost an arm in the fight with them? maybe this is a stupid question and explained somewhere I have missed.
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#12 User is offline   D'rek 

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Posted 15 June 2010 - 12:44 PM

Once a T'lan Imass is sufficiently damaged they lose much of their Ritual-given abilities, including their wordless communication and link of wills. He's still partially affected by the Ritual, as he doen't immediately turn to dust. It's the same as with the Faces in the Rock (though for them it happened long ago).

with what lostara picked up, imho in the end we know the object itself (if anything) is not of any significance, so stands to reason it was some kind of signal to ditch Pearl or made up.

View Postworrywort, on 14 September 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I kinda love it when D'rek unleashes her nerd wrath, as I knew she would here. Sorry innocent bystanders, but someone's gotta be the kindling.
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#13 User is offline   Findarato 

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Posted 16 June 2010 - 09:03 AM

Thanks for replying, D'rek. yes, Onrack said he can't turn to dust anymore (for traveling).
I was also wondering what L'oric would have offered the Whirlwind goddess had he had the chance. maybe he's told his dad :thumbsup:
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#14 User is offline   Silk 

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Posted 16 June 2010 - 10:36 AM

View PostFindarato, on 14 June 2010 - 05:36 PM, said:

View PostSilk, on 14 June 2010 - 04:20 PM, said:

either that or it was an acorn?


Why would Cotillion be interested in an acorn? besides Lostara said it was shiny. Posted Image



Well Cots being interested in an acorn makes sense as it could be Quicks Acorn. Kind of like life returning to when Cots, Quick and Lostara shared a moment. Its a shiny acorn ..... polished lovingly heheheh
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#15 User is offline   Findarato 

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Posted 16 June 2010 - 10:53 AM

View PostSilk, on 16 June 2010 - 10:36 AM, said:

View PostFindarato, on 14 June 2010 - 05:36 PM, said:

View PostSilk, on 14 June 2010 - 04:20 PM, said:

either that or it was an acorn?


Why would Cotillion be interested in an acorn? besides Lostara said it was shiny. Posted Image



Well Cots being interested in an acorn makes sense as it could be Quicks Acorn. Kind of like life returning to when Cots, Quick and Lostara shared a moment. Its a shiny acorn ..... polished lovingly heheheh


you have a point there;)
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#16 User is offline   Moby 

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Posted 09 July 2010 - 06:29 AM

View PostAbyss, on 14 June 2010 - 06:09 PM, said:

Two possibilities i've never quite decided between on the 'what did Lostara pick up' q...

1) Nothing at all. it was just a fakeout so she could headsmack Pearl; or,

2) it was one of those talon pieces, and Cotillion's signal to Lostara to ditch Pearl.

Could be wrong on both, but there they are.

- Abyss, ...because wherever you are, there you are.


Cotillion states that it's not his, but keeps it, which makes me think it's not a "fakeout" and I don't think he would lie here, which makes me think it was a talon or a shadow diamond or quick's acorn.
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#17 User is offline   Braden 

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Posted 09 July 2010 - 11:19 AM

Thinking about it I believe its one of Quick's acorns...what we need to do is look back to see if there is a casual mention of one being dropped or even the potential for one being dropped earlier.

Cotillion would just LOVE to have one of them for obvious reasons...which is, I think, why he expresses himself as he does as detailed above.
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#18 User is offline   D'rek 

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Posted 09 July 2010 - 01:29 PM

View PostBraden, on 09 July 2010 - 11:19 AM, said:

Thinking about it I believe its one of Quick's acorns...what we need to do is look back to see if there is a casual mention of one being dropped or even the potential for one being dropped earlier.

Cotillion would just LOVE to have one of them for obvious reasons...which is, I think, why he expresses himself as he does as detailed above.


One drops out of a tree for Kalam in the stone forest, which Kalam later uses to summon QB. But that seems kind of odd that it would be Cotillion doing that, I always figured QB was just dropping Kalam the acorn because he didn't want to tip his hand until they were inside the tent...

View Postworrywort, on 14 September 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I kinda love it when D'rek unleashes her nerd wrath, as I knew she would here. Sorry innocent bystanders, but someone's gotta be the kindling.
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#19 User is offline   Braden 

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Posted 09 July 2010 - 03:28 PM

starting to feel a re-read coming on about this as it depends if Quick was surprised to be summoned or not and I don't remember that detail.

Surprise = someone else provided the acorn

However, I seem to remember the Acorns being Quicks own invention so should have only come from him or an agent of his. LOL..just finished the book and now your encouraging me to re-read it already!

:)
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Posted 17 July 2010 - 06:49 PM

Hey, i just finished HOC as well, so far just read the prologue of MT. so i figured i'd post here. Not quite as fast-paced/epic as DH and MOI, but great nonetheless. The writing keeps getting better and better. Bummed that I gotta get through MT before I can continue this, but i'm sure i'll like MT just as much

- I didn't like Karsa at first much either, but grew to like him at then end. Wonder where he's going from here?
- Really liked Fiddler and his role in the 14th/his relationship with gesler/stormy etc. and the bones on their uniform.
- Quick Ben at the end was a nice surprise, though not really, since he's with Dujek. Nice reunion with kalam and fiddler.
- Mappo and Icarium popping up was a cool tease. i know they show up later, but not in what ways. I wonder what was with the Tiste Liosan saying Icarium could help them?
- Grew to like Cruckus/Cutter more than i thought i would. Can't wait to see what happens with him and his new task.
- Cotillion has become one of my favorites as well. I'm not quite sure why. His personality I guess.
- I guess I'll ask, just because I don't quite remember. Why did Kalam deliver deliver the book in DH which would start the Whirlwind? I mean, his intentions can sometimes be ambiguous, but i don't think it was what ended up resulting. Any help?

Anyway, just some observations. Awesome awesome awesome series.
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