[Garet Jax]

that I can't put my finger on. There's too many things that appear to be only slightly related that I have to believe there's a connection. I'm hoping some of you might be able to lend a hand here.

First point: In TTH, Brood tells Endest Silann that that Jaghut and FA were at war with each other. He implies that that very war continues to this day.

Second point: Tulas Shorn (whom I realize is a soletaken cousin of Rake, but beyond that I'm not sure who he is) tells Kallor that the Jaghut only went to war once ever, and that war was against death itself.

The Jaghut vs Death point has been discussed ad nauseam and on the surface these two points seem to have no relationship to each other at all. They merely seem to be two different characters telling things from their perspectives, an neither have the whole truth. This is common enough in SE's writing that I didn't think too much of it. One part of that conversation, however, jumps out at me. Shorn:

Quote

"Weep, for me and my fallen kin--who did not hesitate to join a war we could not win." (TTH, p518)

Point three: Check this Heboric thought.

Quote

"A final war had begun. Facing an enemy against whom no defence was possible...I see now with the eyes of the Abyss. I see now with my enemy's eyes, and so I shall speak with its voice. Behold, my friends, I am justice." (DoD p34)

Interesting then, that we have two points of view, one from someone allied with the ancient Jaghut and one from a character that seems to have more knowledge of the coming grand scheme of things--jade giants and all--than anyone else in the story.

Both of these POVs describe an enemy that is basically unbeatable. One of these POVs describes the enemy as "death itself" while another describes it as the "Abyss." Yes, there's obviously a distinction between the two in SEs mythology, but there's obviously similarities as well. Especially when one considers that the Jaghut have no afterlife, it's possible that there's relation to the effect of death = oblivion = the Abyss.

Point four: "Justice." Are not the Forkrul Assail in some respects the very embodiment of justice? Order and justice and civilization; all the things that the Jaghut have been running from?

Quote

"The war that shattered their unity, that made of their life a moribund flight from an implacable enemy." (TTH, p517)

This validates something we heard earlier in DG, when CPL List is channeling the Jaghut spirit just after Vathar Cossing.

Quote

"They lived apart, you know. No villages, no cities, just single remote dwellings...they feared each other almost as much as they feared the T'Lan Imass." (DG, p491)

What does it all mean? Not sure, but I don't think it's a coincidence. If I had to guess I would say I think it means that the Jaghut and FA started out as one people. I guess that could explain the fact that they share that odd multi-jointedness. Maybe the FA were all about order, justice and civilization and that Jaghut were more inclined to solitude, for they believed there was tyranny in civilization. Fully aware of their own efficacy, they had to know their own potential for such. So the "war" that Brood speaks maybe isn't a war in the sense of armies and clashing, but of two halves of the same thing, warring against it's own opposing nature.

And what does it mean for the final battle that Heboric speaks of? If there's a correlation--and I think there is--it means that there will be something inherent in the nature of civilization itself that has become the enemy. Power maybe? Magic? No idea, but I find the whole things damn interesting.

This post has been edited by Garet Jax: 05 March 2010 - 12:06 AM

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

I don't think they are the same people. Too much talk of the 4 founding races from day one. Plus they don't seem similar physically in any way other than the humanoid appearance, and Jaghut have more joints in their fingers than humans. Plus the fact that they both seem to have their own racial warrens seems to point towards the fact that they don't have a shared racial heritage. I think it's important to note that Tulas Shorn has been dead since that Jaghut war on death I believe. So he might not even know about the later clash of ideals between the two races. Which is what I think it was: two fundamentally different ideologies. The Jaghut who were solitary and looked inward, and the Forkrul Assail who looked out, and tried to force peace upon the world by any means necessary.

My theory on the Heboric quote is that it is the FA that are somehow drawing the Jade Statues to Wu, and through his connection to the statues, he has seen/knows the plan of the FA.

[Aptorian]

The isolation part about Jaghut society is attributed their troubles with Tyrants and a personality trait that makes them occasionally domineering but more often just anti-social. Jaghuts are not exactly the life of the party.

[Gathras]

I agree with WhiskeyJackDaniels.

For one there is the possibility that Thulas Shorn just does not know about the later clash between Jaghut and FA.

Also the way I understood it when Tulas Shorn said that the Jaghuts only war was the one against death he meant that the whole Jaghut race was in this war. I mean he is talking about millions while the one against the FA can't be fought by nearly as many. The latter war is simply a war of ideology as WhiskeyJackDaniels stated while the war against death had a greater goal.

[Soulessdreamer]

The Jaghut went to war once against death, that dosen't mean that others didn't go to war against them. the jaghut as a race obviously didn't see the need to mobilise as a whole against those lesser attacks/threats.

IMO they are different races/species

TTFN

[worry]

Is Kilmandaros the mother of only the FA?