[SpectreofEschaton]

Forgive me if this is common knowledge, I'm rereading MT for the first time and stumbled across this:

In my copy (Tor mass market paperback), chapter 3, page 132 at the bottom,

Quote

The moon had risen, prison world to Menandore's true father, who was trapped within it.[...]The defeats he [Father Shadiw] had delivered - the burying of Brother Dark and the imprisonment of Brother Light there in that distant, latticed world in the sky...

This would seem to imply that the prisoner in the moon (and hence, the master of the Hounds of Light who has ambitions on Dragnipur) is none other than Osserc, though that seems kind of conflicting with his appearences in both House of Chains and RotCG.

Thoughts?

[Salt-Man Z]

Is Osserc Menandore's true father?

[Sinisdar Toste]

if any passage was gonna spread some light i think it would be from MT itself. the vision that wither shows udinaas of sukul and menandore dragging sheltatha to the azath. can't recall if his fatherhood of either of them is mentioned

This post has been edited by Sinisdar Toste: 23 February 2010 - 08:32 PM

[Tarcanus]

Holy crap, this really makes sense timeline-wise (TIMELINE IS NOT IMPORTANT, I know, I'm talking local to the moon explosion period of time)

With the return of Mommy D at the end of TtH, it only makes sense that at the moment she returned the moon exploded and Light returned. Even if it's not true that it happened this way, it makes much more sense to me and hence is now my truth.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

It would appear he is the father of Menandore and Sukul Ankhadu.
Page 187 of MT in the scene where those two are imprisoning Sheltatha Lore in the Azath House

"...Osserc's brows rose mockingly and he regarded the unconscious woman lying on the ground between his daughters..."

[Kurt Montandon]

 SpectreofEschaton, on 23 February 2010 - 04:07 PM, said:

Forgive me if this is common knowledge, I'm rereading MT for the first time and stumbled across this:

In my copy (Tor mass market paperback), chapter 3, page 132 at the bottom,

Quote

The moon had risen, prison world to Menandore's true father, who was trapped within it.[...]The defeats he [Father Shadiw] had delivered - the burying of Brother Dark and the imprisonment of Brother Light there in that distant, latticed world in the sky...

This would seem to imply that the prisoner in the moon (and hence, the master of the Hounds of Light who has ambitions on Dragnipur) is none other than Osserc, though that seems kind of conflicting with his appearences in both House of Chains and RotCG.

Thoughts?

This reads a whole lot like poetic license on the part of Edur mythology.

Remember - this is in Trull's thoughts, not secret knowledge from Wither's visions or Silchas Ruin or something.

[SpectreofEschaton]

 Kurt Montandon, on 24 February 2010 - 02:46 AM, said:

 SpectreofEschaton, on 23 February 2010 - 04:07 PM, said:

Forgive me if this is common knowledge, I'm rereading MT for the first time and stumbled across this:

In my copy (Tor mass market paperback), chapter 3, page 132 at the bottom,

Quote

The moon had risen, prison world to Menandore's true father, who was trapped within it.[...]The defeats he [Father Shadiw] had delivered - the burying of Brother Dark and the imprisonment of Brother Light there in that distant, latticed world in the sky...

This would seem to imply that the prisoner in the moon (and hence, the master of the Hounds of Light who has ambitions on Dragnipur) is none other than Osserc, though that seems kind of conflicting with his appearences in both House of Chains and RotCG.

Thoughts?

This reads a whole lot like poetic license on the part of Edur mythology.

Remember - this is in Trull's thoughts, not secret knowledge from Wither's visions or Silchas Ruin or something.

Yes, I considered that after posting. Still, I find it awesome how far ahead Erikson planned this series, that such a line would actually be relevant - whether true or not - 3,000 pages down the line, is remarkable, even if I blew right past it as inconsequential setting fluff the first time.

Here's hoping the exploded moon and HoL get a bit more relevant in the CG.

[D'rek]

 Tarcanus, on 23 February 2010 - 09:20 PM, said:

Holy crap, this really makes sense timeline-wise (TIMELINE IS NOT IMPORTANT, I know, I'm talking local to the moon explosion period of time)

With the return of Mommy D at the end of TtH, it only makes sense that at the moment she returned the moon exploded and Light returned. Even if it's not true that it happened this way, it makes much more sense to me and hence is now my truth.

That would make more sense if FL was trapped in the moon, and not Osserc...

[MTS]

 Tarcanus, on 23 February 2010 - 09:20 PM, said:

Holy crap, this really makes sense timeline-wise (TIMELINE IS NOT IMPORTANT, I know, I'm talking local to the moon explosion period of time)

With the return of Mommy D at the end of TtH, it only makes sense that at the moment she returned the moon exploded and Light returned. Even if it's not true that it happened this way, it makes much more sense to me and hence is now my truth.

Spoiler alert perhaps? There's two pretty big ones there that I can see, and one in the OP.

I'm not so sure though, to be honest. Why does Erikson make the distinction between Menandore's father and Menandore's true father? That implies the person generally thought of as her father is in fact not. I realise the evidence for Osserc's paternity is fairly extensive, but still, it's an odd way to phrase it.

Spoiler

Timeline wise, it doesn't really make sense. Not even in the way Erikson's timelines are plausible. In HoC (a fair while before the moon explodes in BH, much less Mother Dark's return in TTH), Osserc comes out with this:

Quote

'Father. The Queen of Dreams believes you lost,' he [L'oric] said after a long moment.
'I am. Or, rather, I was. Further, I would remain so.'

And we have to take into account the fact that Trull might not have all the facts, or that we don't. Osserc may not be the Brother Light that is referred to. There are three Brothers of Dark (that we know of) after all, it is foolish to assume he is the only one. We may just not have heard of him, since he is removed from the game. Consider Tulas Shorn's sudden arrival on the scene. Brother Light implies there are siblings as well, although that simply could be referring to the relationship between Silchas, Scabandari etc.

This post has been edited by MTS: 24 February 2010 - 04:03 AM

[SpectreofEschaton]

 MTS, on 24 February 2010 - 04:00 AM, said:

 Tarcanus, on 23 February 2010 - 09:20 PM, said:

Holy crap, this really makes sense timeline-wise (TIMELINE IS NOT IMPORTANT, I know, I'm talking local to the moon explosion period of time)

With the return of Mommy D at the end of TtH, it only makes sense that at the moment she returned the moon exploded and Light returned. Even if it's not true that it happened this way, it makes much more sense to me and hence is now my truth.

Spoiler alert perhaps? There's two pretty big ones there that I can see, and one in the OP.

I thought it was okay to discuss events of a book in the book's forum without spoilers. Note, I posted this in TTH, not MT. If not, I truly do apologize.

Quote

I'm not so sure though, to be honest. Why does Erikson make the distinction between Menandore's father and Menandore's true father? That implies the person generally thought of as her father is in fact not. I realise the evidence for Osserc's paternity is fairly extensive, but still, it's an odd way to phrase it.

Spoiler

Timeline wise, it doesn't really make sense. Not even in the way Erikson's timelines are plausible. In HoC (a fair while before the moon explodes in BH, much less Mother Dark's return in TTH), Osserc comes out with this:

Quote

'Father. The Queen of Dreams believes you lost,' he [L'oric] said after a long moment.
'I am. Or, rather, I was. Further, I would remain so.'

And we have to take into account the fact that Trull might not have all the facts, or that we don't. Osserc may not be the Brother Light that is referred to. There are three Brothers of Dark (that we know of) after all, it is foolish to assume he is the only one. We may just not have heard of him, since he is removed from the game. Consider Tulas Shorn's sudden arrival on the scene. Brother Light implies there are siblings as well, although that simply could be referring to the relationship between Silchas, Scabandari etc.

I thought it was implied that Bloodeye is here father when in reality Osserc is. Can't remember where, though.

Though, good point about brothers. It really doesn't make sense for it to be Osserc up there.

Spoiler

Though his apppearences in RotCG makes the issue of him being somewhere else a bit fuzzier, since he already appears to be in two places at once. Or is it meant to be taken that he left that memory from HoC and went to the spire in the begining of RotCG, all the while being lost to the Liosan?

[MTS]

 SpectreofEschaton, on 24 February 2010 - 04:11 AM, said:

 MTS, on 24 February 2010 - 04:00 AM, said:

 Tarcanus, on 23 February 2010 - 09:20 PM, said:

Holy crap, this really makes sense timeline-wise (TIMELINE IS NOT IMPORTANT, I know, I'm talking local to the moon explosion period of time)

With the return of Mommy D at the end of TtH, it only makes sense that at the moment she returned the moon exploded and Light returned. Even if it's not true that it happened this way, it makes much more sense to me and hence is now my truth.

Spoiler alert perhaps? There's two pretty big ones there that I can see, and one in the OP.

I thought it was okay to discuss events of a book in the book's forum without spoilers. Note, I posted this in TTH, not MT. If not, I truly do apologize.

Aha, my bad, I thought this was the MT forum. Still, I think it was decided a while back ROTCG spoilers should be blocked in the TTH forum? Ah well, carry on, if it breaks the rules a mod can fix it, I guess.

Quote

Quote

I'm not so sure though, to be honest. Why does Erikson make the distinction between Menandore's father and Menandore's true father? That implies the person generally thought of as her father is in fact not. I realise the evidence for Osserc's paternity is fairly extensive, but still, it's an odd way to phrase it.

Spoiler

Timeline wise, it doesn't really make sense. Not even in the way Erikson's timelines are plausible. In HoC (a fair while before the moon explodes in BH, much less Mother Dark's return in TTH), Osserc comes out with this:

Quote

'Father. The Queen of Dreams believes you lost,' he [L'oric] said after a long moment.
'I am. Or, rather, I was. Further, I would remain so.'

And we have to take into account the fact that Trull might not have all the facts, or that we don't. Osserc may not be the Brother Light that is referred to. There are three Brothers of Dark (that we know of) after all, it is foolish to assume he is the only one. We may just not have heard of him, since he is removed from the game. Consider Tulas Shorn's sudden arrival on the scene. Brother Light implies there are siblings as well, although that simply could be referring to the relationship between Silchas, Scabandari etc.

I thought it was implied that Bloodeye is here father when in reality Osserc is. Can't remember where, though.

Though, good point about brothers. It really doesn't make sense for it to be Osserc up there.

Spoiler

Though his apppearences in RotCG makes the issue of him being somewhere else a bit fuzzier, since he already appears to be in two places at once. Or is it meant to be taken that he left that memory from HoC and went to the spire in the begining of RotCG, all the while being lost to the Liosan?

Ah yes, that's a good point about Scabandari, since it is Trull's thoughts. Daughter Dawn and all that.

Spoiler

As for Osserc, we're assuming there is in fact someone up there. Consider the Grallin story in GotM, which is probably not literally true. My understanding of it is that Osserc was in the Spur when he was in Raraku's memory. It is said somewhere that Osserc is dreaming while in the Spur, so it makes sense that L'oric encountered him in a dream realm of sorts in HoC.

This post has been edited by MTS: 24 February 2010 - 05:05 AM

[D'rek]

Sheltatha is Scabby's daughter, Menandore and Sukul are Osserc's daughters. But the Edur believe that all three girls are Scabby's daughters.