[Votan]

Quote

'You are a fool. From my ancient blood ran every stream of Soletaken and D'ivers. And my blood, ah, it was but half Imass, perhaps even less. I am old beyond your imagining, warrior. Older than this world. I lived in darkness, I walked in purest light, I cast curses upon shadow. My hands were chipped stone, my eyes spawned the first fires to huddle round, my legs spread to the first mortal child. I am known by so many names even I have forgotten most of them.'
She rose, her squat frame dangling rotted furs, her hair lifting like an aura of madness to surround her withered face, and advanced to stand over him.
A sudden chill gripped Torrent. He could not move. He struggled to breathe.
She spoke. 'Parts of me sleep, tormented by sickness. Others rail in the fury of summer storms. I am the drinker of birth waters. And blood. And the rain of weeping and the oil of ordeal. I did not lie, mortal, when I told you that the spirits you worship are my children. I am the bringer of a land's bounty. I am the cruel thief of want, the sower of suffering.
'So many names . . . Eran'ishal, Mother to the Eres'al - my first and most sentimental of choices.' She seemed to flinch. 'Rath Evain to the Forkrul Assail. Stone Bitch to the Jaghut. I have had a face in darkness, a son in shadow, a bastard in light. I have been named the Mother Beneath the Mountain, Ayala Alalle who tends the Gardens of the Moon, for ever awaiting her lover. I am Burn the Sleeping Goddess, in whose dreams life flowers unending, even as those dreams twist into nightmares. I am scattered to the very edge of the Abyss, possessor of more faces than any other Elder.'

Thoughts? Also, mother to the Eres'al? I thought the Eres'al was mother to all. She also claims to be the origin of all soletaken and d'ivers, as well as being the caretaker of the gardens on the moon. Lots of claims here, just who is Olar Ethil?

[iRFNA]

The line 'I am scattered to the very edge of the Abyss, possessor of more faces than any other Elder.' almost seems to imply that the overall god that Olar Ethil claims to be a fragment of is aspected to planets. Or perhaps a life-giving force of planets. Of course, even if it's true, Olar Ethil is just an infinitesimal piece of that force and (perhaps permanently) separated from it by the Ritual, if not before to some extent.

[Blend]

 Votan, on 22 February 2010 - 08:51 PM, said:

Quote

'You are a fool. From my ancient blood ran every stream of Soletaken and D'ivers. And my blood, ah, it was but half Imass, perhaps even less. I am old beyond your imagining, warrior. Older than this world. I lived in darkness, I walked in purest light, I cast curses upon shadow. My hands were chipped stone, my eyes spawned the first fires to huddle round, my legs spread to the first mortal child. I am known by so many names even I have forgotten most of them.'
She rose, her squat frame dangling rotted furs, her hair lifting like an aura of madness to surround her withered face, and advanced to stand over him.
A sudden chill gripped Torrent. He could not move. He struggled to breathe.
She spoke. 'Parts of me sleep, tormented by sickness. Others rail in the fury of summer storms. I am the drinker of birth waters. And blood. And the rain of weeping and the oil of ordeal. I did not lie, mortal, when I told you that the spirits you worship are my children. I am the bringer of a land's bounty. I am the cruel thief of want, the sower of suffering.
'So many names . . . Eran'ishal, Mother to the Eres'al - my first and most sentimental of choices.' She seemed to flinch. 'Rath Evain to the Forkrul Assail. Stone Bitch to the Jaghut. I have had a face in darkness, a son in shadow, a bastard in light. I have been named the Mother Beneath the Mountain, Ayala Alalle who tends the Gardens of the Moon, for ever awaiting her lover. I am Burn the Sleeping Goddess, in whose dreams life flowers unending, even as those dreams twist into nightmares. I am scattered to the very edge of the Abyss, possessor of more faces than any other Elder.'

Thoughts? Also, mother to the Eres'al? I thought the Eres'al was mother to all. She also claims to be the origin of all soletaken and d'ivers, as well as being the caretaker of the gardens on the moon. Lots of claims here, just who is Olar Ethil?

My vote goes to hyped up crazy bitch with a serious case of megalomania. She's just trying to impress Torrent, try to make him afraid of her. Didn't work too well, I don't think.

[Votan]

 iRFNA, on 22 February 2010 - 08:58 PM, said:

The line 'I am scattered to the very edge of the Abyss, possessor of more faces than any other Elder.' almost seems to imply that the overall god that Olar Ethil claims to be a fragment of is aspected to planets. Or perhaps a life-giving force of planets. Of course, even if it's true, Olar Ethil is just an infinitesimal piece of that force and (perhaps permanently) separated from it by the Ritual, if not before to some extent.

So the idea is that Burn is a small piece of a larger Elder God? Olar Ethil, when she invoked the ritual of Tellan, effectively severed herself from the rest of her god-selves, and is now really just a powerful soletaken Imass bonecaster, but not a full Elder God?

[iRFNA]

 Votan, on 22 February 2010 - 09:01 PM, said:

So the idea is that Burn is a small piece of a larger Elder God? Olar Ethil, when she invoked the ritual of Tellan, effectively severed herself from the rest of her god-selves, and is now really just a powerful soletaken Imass bonecaster, but not a full Elder God?

Well, it would seem that, based on this, that "larger Elder God" would already be broken into innumerable, variably aspected pieces, one of which being Burn. So Burn has some sort of official, Imass-aspected avatar in Olar Ethil at some point, but then has her avatar corrupted by dragon's blood and severed by the Ritual. So Burn still exists in part as Burn, but she's sacrificed some other part of herself as Olar Ethil, tormentor of loners.

This post has been edited by iRFNA: 22 February 2010 - 09:10 PM

[Obdigore]

 Votan, on 22 February 2010 - 09:01 PM, said:

 iRFNA, on 22 February 2010 - 08:58 PM, said:

The line 'I am scattered to the very edge of the Abyss, possessor of more faces than any other Elder.' almost seems to imply that the overall god that Olar Ethil claims to be a fragment of is aspected to planets. Or perhaps a life-giving force of planets. Of course, even if it's true, Olar Ethil is just an infinitesimal piece of that force and (perhaps permanently) separated from it by the Ritual, if not before to some extent.

So the idea is that Burn is a small piece of a larger Elder God? Olar Ethil, when she invoked the ritual of Tellan, effectively severed herself from the rest of her god-selves, and is now really just a powerful soletaken Imass bonecaster, but not a full Elder God?

If what she says is true, then yes. I think she is a liar and a deceiver. I also note that this happened:

Olar threatens Kilava's Child
Ruin tells Olar she better watch out, as Kilava is watching.
Olar scoffs, insinuating that Kilava is nothing.
Ruin informs Olar that with the Ritual of Tellan, Olar stopped evolving, Kilava did nothing of the sort.
Ominous Thunder in the distance (I added this).

I think Olar Ethil is a fragment of what might have once been a powerful being, who, like all those who refuse to change with the world, thinks she is still powerful and will probably die to a single cusser to her face.

[D'rek]

 Obdigore, on 22 February 2010 - 09:20 PM, said:

I think Olar Ethil is a fragment of what might have once been a powerful being, who, like all those who refuse to change with the world, thinks she is still powerful and will probably die to a single cusser to her face.

No way. She'll finally meet Grallin, tearfully regret everything and they'll fly into the sky to go tend the gardens of the moon together. Which are actual gardens, instead of some metaphorical thing we all assumed back in book 1...

[Sinisdar Toste]

 D, on 22 February 2010 - 10:29 PM, said:

 Obdigore, on 22 February 2010 - 09:20 PM, said:

I think Olar Ethil is a fragment of what might have once been a powerful being, who, like all those who refuse to change with the world, thinks she is still powerful and will probably die to a single cusser to her face.

No way. She'll finally meet Grallin, tearfully regret everything and they'll fly into the sky to go tend the gardens of the moon together. Which are actual gardens, instead of some metaphorical thing we all assumed back in book 1...

And Grallin is Father Light, just to make us all scream

[HeWhoEatsBabies]

This section also really confused me. More so when i recalled Raest implying that Burn was young in the grand scheme of things early on in the series,

(GotM) '...the sleeping goddess - young as far as the Jaghut Tyrant was concerned.'

Yet Olar Othil describes herself as being 'older than this world' yet also 'Burn the Sleeping Goddess' above.

I guess they're not entirely contradictory given Raest also described a time when the first Imass appeared before him, 'then into his path came the first of the Imass'. So in theory he could be older than Olar Ethil, which would make more sense if she was an aspect of an Elder God that fractured due to the Ritual of Tellan. This would also account for Burn being younger than Raest but still somehow connected to Olar Othil and also an Elder God that in effect represents the life force of the world.

Then again Raest also implies that he had already done battle with the physical aspects of the world,

(GotM) 'Raest gathered beasts around him, bending nature to his will. But nature withered and died in bondage, and so found an escape he could not control. In his anger he laid waste to the land, driving into extinction countless species. The earth resisted him, and its power was immense. Yet it was directionless and could not overwhelm Raest in its ageless tide. His was a focused power, precise in its destruction and pervasive in its effect.'

So, in the end the power that was Earth, while immensely powerful, was at this point time still directionless. So Earth being a directionless power, which was only able to come into being after Raest was imprisoned, obviously reinforces Raest statement that Burn is yougner than him and is the same force to contend with Raest. However by this point you'd have thought we already had Olar Othil if she was the precursor to the Imass so i don't quite see how she could call herself Burn.

Still, that's a very convenient theory and i can't help but find it hard to conconcile Raest being older than Burn, Burn being another name for Olar, yet Olar saying she's scattered to the very edge of the abyss and Older than this World (surely making her older than raest). My understanding of the timeline this implies just doesn't work to be honest. This series really can your head spinning...

This post has been edited by HeWhoEatsBabies: 02 November 2010 - 03:21 PM

[blackzoid]

Olar Ethil is a lying sack of dung whose ravings should not be taken at face value.
I don't believe a word out of her.

[Aptorian]

I think it is easier to imagine who or what Olar Ethil is by not thinking of her as the undead creature you see in DOD but as a manifestation of many different aspects revolving around life and death, creation and destruction. She is what you percieve but so much more that you do not, cannot.

[Abyss]

Pet theory time: In RCG we learn that d'ivers are an old, old ritual, and that component parts of a d'ivers can take on their own aspect and identity.

In DoD Olar Ethil claims a direct line to shapeshifters, including d'ivers.

Now go back further - what if all, or at least many, Elder Gods, were once the various bodies of a single entity. Over time, each took on its own aspect and identity, but a link remains. hence, when Olar claims 'she is Burn', she's nuts and raving, but she's also correct, because a part of her IS Burn, and other goddesses besides.

- Abyss, and also Abyss, and also Abyss, ...

[Aptorian]

It's not a new theory and it is an interesting one.

Only the source I think, lies in the aspects of the gods, not the personalities we get to know. It's not a creature like Jehova, it is a naturally occurring cosmic origin.

The Elder Gods represent elements that belong to the same source. That being order. Order came out of Chaos, supposedly birthed by Mother Dark if you want to believe... was it Osserc?s mythology. Chaos is the forge of destruction and creation, where things are unmade and come again. Out of chaos comes these Elements. Various aspects that make up reality are brought into a symmetry that makes up a world or universe shaped by "Order" - darkness, light, fire, air, water, earth, etc. Everything is raw and undefined. Only with time and the perception of outside viewers, this being the worshipper, brings about new facets to these elements. They get tied to abitrary values and concepts. Which shape the forms of these elements. Leading to the crazy Elder Gods we know today.

[Abyss]

 Aptorian, on 02 November 2010 - 04:07 PM, said:

It's not a new theory and it is an interesting one.

well, yes, because it was me that raised it in the first place.

Quote

The Elder Gods represent elements that belong to the same source. ...Leading to the crazy Elder Gods we know today.

And that's what i comes down to - a common origin with a residul link, d'ivers or otherwise.

I know most of us, me included, had an initial 'Olar Ethil is a crazy bag of nut and she's raving' reaction, but SE doesn't play that way. Sure, characters lie, but i don't think that's what happened there.

[Aptorian]

Ah, but my point would be that the reason to why Olar Ethil sounds so crazy, the fragmented nature of her ancestry in the ancient history and religions, is not related to her element, if she even has a specific one, but rather it is the influence of the worshippers. The worshippers shape their gods in the image of what they think their god should be like. Like the evolution of the faiths of our own ancient world. Where a god is given a mythology and aspect that changes as the culture changes, gods that are usurped by invading cultures, gain a new name and a new back history and there by becomes a whole different creature. If we assumed that say... Jehova... who was once Mithras... who was also known as Helios... who was once Ra... if we assumed that all these deities were the same creature worshipped by several different cultures, given conflicting names and peculiarities by all, then that god if you met him or her today, whould probably seem like a mess if they began to lay out the foundation of their being. Much like this rambling post I just made.

This post has been edited by Aptorian: 02 November 2010 - 04:39 PM

[HeWhoEatsBabies]

So we're happy to establish that

a. given Olar is mad
b. It doesn't fit with Raest's (very specific) description of Burn

we should for all intensive purposes now view Burn and Olar as completely dinstinct and separate Gods, regardless of their initial birth/creation/inception/whatever?

This post has been edited by HeWhoEatsBabies: 02 November 2010 - 04:50 PM

[Aptorian]

Maybe, maybe not. Can't trust GotM when it comes to time lines. If Burn is an aspect, then Olar Ethil could share it.

[blackzoid]

I'm still going with the "Shes a nutjob" argument.
Shes claiming to be too many different female historical characters for my taste. Too many drastically different female characters. She's lumping in Eres, Imass, Jaghut and FA as if they were all interchangeable early primitive tribes with the same sort of mother-worship belief systems.
Although I have no proof, I can't see the FA or the Jaghut ever worshipping gods or Ascendents (with the possible exception of Killy for the FA.)
And currently she is both Olar Ethil as well as being Burn? No way.
I can see the whole whole Elder God/First Soletaken argument that ye lot are trying to go for, but I can't buy it. Not yet.
Shes just ab Elder god who has dwindled to become the T'lan Imass's main Soletaken Bonecaster. Thats it.

I'm surprised she didn't claim to be the Queen of Dreams, Mother Dark, Tiam and Kruppe's grandmother too!

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 02 November 2010 - 05:13 PM

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

I would definitely view all Elder Gods as their own distinct personalities and having individual goals (DoD certainly showed us that).

However I guess it is possible that they are all somehow connected, I just don't think we should read too much into the possible shared D'ivers start as having an effect on the upcoming book. (Unless somehow thats how you kill an elemental force, you gather them all together and kill them en masse somehow...like with a bunch of jade missiles perhaps?)

[worry]

A third thought: perhaps she's not crazy, and she's not actually all of these mother goddesses, but she was being metaphorical...she's a self-appointed representative of mother goddesses, whether they like it or not. A little crazy, she's not so different from the Matron in MOI.