[Votan]

Quote

He watched as the Destriant absorbed this information, and then she faced the Jaghut.
'Guardians. I thought to see . . . familiar faces.'
One of the spear-wielders stepped forward. 'Hood would not want us.'
'If he had,' said the swordswoman beside him, 'he would have summoned us.'
'He would not choose that,' resumed the first Jaghut, 'for he knew we would not likely accede.'
'Hood abused our goodwill,' the swordswoman said, tusks gleaming with frost, 'at the first chaining. He knew enough to face away from us at the next one.' An iron-sheathed finger pointed at the Destriant. 'Instead, he abused you, child of the Imass. And made of one his deadliest enemy. We yield him no sorrow.'
'No commiseration,' said the spear-wielder.
'No sympathy,' added one of the slingers.
'He will stand alone,' the swordswoman said in a rasp

They are clearly talking about Dassem's daughter in the bolded section. Yet they are pointing at and talking to Kalyth, saying Hood abused her and thus made his deadliest enemy. Kalyth=Dassem's daughter? It doesn't feel right, so what is happening here?

This post has been edited by Votan: 22 February 2010 - 10:16 PM

[Illuyankas]

She means humanity when she says 'you', not specifically Kalyth. Made one of humanity his deadliest enemy, for example.

[Abyss]

Illuyankas, on 22 February 2010 - 05:26 PM, said:

She means humanity when she says 'you', not specifically Kalyth. Made one of humanity his deadliest enemy, for example.

Agreed.

- Abyss, agreeable.

[Votan]

Some tough questions. Any thoughts would be welcome.

1. Do you think the "Bearded One" that is mentioned, which many theorize to be one of the wizrds of Shal-Morzin, is Ruthun Gudd? The text points to him touching and combing his fingers through his beard a lot.

2. Do you think K'rul is going to show up again? I worry he's been relegated to ICE Darujhistan novel, even though his connection to the warrens along with the gathering Elder powers indicates he really should play a part in TCG.

3. Quick Ben's soletaken form...a Shi'Gul Assassin?

4. If Draconus is so powerful, and Kallor fairly weak on the power-scale (relatively, not weak weak), how did Kallor curse Draconus and K'rul in the first place?

5. Is Osserc Olar Ethil's son? "I have had a face in darkness, a son in shadow, a bastard in light."

6. Scabandari was Father Shadow to the Edur, where did he come from? Who is his mother/father? Is he the first Edur?

I'll probably have more, I'll use this thread rather than start a new one, and amend the title. Thanks everyone, I love discussing these books.

This post has been edited by Votan: 22 February 2010 - 10:27 PM

[D'rek]

Votan, on 22 February 2010 - 10:26 PM, said:

Some tough questions. Any thoughts would be welcome.

1. Do you think the "Bearded One" that is mentioned, which many theorize to be one of the wizrds of Shal-Morzin, is Ruthun Gudd? The text points to him touching and combing his fingers through his beard a lot.

Anythings possible, but there's no reason to think any of the Three are missing from Shal-Morzinn. Lots of people have beards and stroke them. And then you'd need a long account of the Bearded One leaving Shal-Morzinn, hooking up with Greymane and getting a Stormrider sword, so he's have to be gone from Shal-Morzinn for a while, too.

2. Do you think K'rul is going to show up again? I worry he's been relegated to ICE Darujhistan novel, even though his connection to the warrens along with the gathering Elder powers indicates he really should play a part in TCG.

In TtH he made the point that he's not really in this war, he is just the prize of it. Expect to see him again in tCG, but he won't be trying to bring about his own nasty schemes the way Killy or Draconus will.

3. Quick Ben's soletaken form...a Shi'Gul Assassin?

No, something better.

4. If Draconus is so powerful, and Kallor fairly weak on the power-scale (relatively, not weak weak), how did Kallor curse Draconus and K'rul in the first place?

By sacrificing a million people to death. Presumably he was able to use that.

5. Is Osserc Olar Ethil's son? "I have had a face in darkness, a son in shadow, a bastard in light."

Osserc is called "The First Son of Light and Dark". Whether this means he's the son of MD and FL, or the first child of either of them, it's a pretty good bet he is the spawn of them. Most of the time he is called the Bastard of Light, which most take to mean he is FL's son and has no mother at all.

6. Scabandari was Father Shadow to the Edur, where did he come from? Who is his mother/father? Is he the first Edur?

He's just some Edur who went and got busy with Tiam, thereby becoming a Soletaken eleint and pretty powerful (though he was probably powerful before that too). Then he murdered the royal line of the Edur (the Edur equivalent of Rake, Andarist, Silchas and their descendants) and took over himself. There's no evidence he's actually anything to match MD or FL, the Father Shadow is just the title the Edur use for him, not knowing any greater god to worship.

I'll probably have more, I'll use this thread rather than start a new one, and amend the title. Thanks everyone, I love discussing these books.

[Sinisdar Toste]

its entirely possible that olar ethil was involved in osserc's creation. she is known as the First Soletaken and there is still no flat out, on the table, here it is evidence that soletaken ability can be passed from the father and until nimander veers and lady envy reveals she cannot, i can't agree that it is. so, olar shags FL, produces soletaken eleint osserc, then buggers off, leaving him a bastard in some way. or maybe he never had any parents. or maybe olar is talking about someone else entirely?

[Votan]

D, on 22 February 2010 - 10:40 PM, said:

Osserc is called "The First Son of Light and Dark". Whether this means he's the son of MD and FL, or the first child of either of them, it's a pretty good bet he is the spawn of them. Most of the time he is called the Bastard of Light, which most take to mean he is FL's son and has no mother at all.

Emphasis in your quote from me. Then, Olar Ethil says:

Quote

"I have had a face in darkness, a son in shadow, a bastard in light."

Again, emphasis mine. So I take that as rather significant. Also, I'm fairly sure bastards typically have a mother but no father who claims/recognizes them as his son.

This post has been edited by Votan: 23 February 2010 - 03:32 AM

[HoosierDaddy]

She also claims to be a amalgamation of and matriarch of many very powerful elder gods. I do not trust her sections at all.

[D'rek]

Votan, on 23 February 2010 - 03:31 AM, said:

D, on 22 February 2010 - 10:40 PM, said:

Osserc is called "The First Son of Light and Dark". Whether this means he's the son of MD and FL, or the first child of either of them, it's a pretty good bet he is the spawn of them. Most of the time he is called the Bastard of Light, which most take to mean he is FL's son and has no mother at all.

Emphasis in your quote from me. Then, Olar Ethil says:

Quote

"I have had a face in darkness, a son in shadow, a bastard in light."

Again, emphasis mine. So I take that as rather significant. Also, I'm fairly sure bastards typically have a mother but no father who claims/recognizes them as his son.

So... Osserc's father is really Olar Ethil and he still has no mother?

[Votan]

D, on 23 February 2010 - 04:36 AM, said:

So... Osserc's father is really Olar Ethil and he still has no mother?

No, Olar Ethil would still be the mother. His father being unknown or being Father Light fits this, since to be a bastard simply means his father doesn't claim him as his own. It's like a Lord who has a child with a woman other than his wife/consort, and so does not put the child as heir to the family name and home.

So Ethil is his mother with Father Light, and afterwards Father Light doesn't acknowledge Osserc as heir or part of his lineage to soothe his spouse/consort(or possibly MD). Thus, Osserc is the Bastard of Light.

This post has been edited by Votan: 23 February 2010 - 05:13 AM

[HoosierDaddy]

Except Osseric is worshiped by the Liosan, and is by far the most identifiable "Light" force in the entire Malazan Universe, which would pretty much blow any "acknowledgment" issues out the door. Further, Father Light turned away because Mother Dark did, perhaps Osseric is only a "Bastard" through the indirect means of Mother Dark's turning away from her children.

This post has been edited by H.D.: 23 February 2010 - 05:16 AM

[Votan]

H.D., on 23 February 2010 - 05:14 AM, said:

Except Osseric is worshiped by the Liosan, and is by far the most identifiable "Light" force in the entire Malazan Universe, which would pretty much blow any "acknowledging" issues out the door. Further, Father Light turned away because Mother Dark did, perhaps Osseric is only a "Bastard" through the indirect means of Mother Dark's turning away from her children.

Osseric is worshipped by the Liosan because he takes the form of one, and is a mighty power. Him being Liosan doesn't necessarily signify to MD that it was FL himself who begat Osserc. We also don't know what kind of relationship Mother Dark and Father Light shared towards the beginning and at the end before they "left." Perhaps Osserc becoming more and more prominent and thus more likely to be FL's offspring played a part in it. Or perhaps it wasn't secrecy that made FL not claim Osserc, and more political positioning. He made a gesture to MD that he would not put his child with an Elder Goddess above her children, or any number of other considerations.

I'm not quite ready to just dismiss what Ethil says there, since I think the phrase was used on purpose.

[D'rek]

Well, maybe L'oric perhaps? I just really don't see Osserc being the son of OE, because then he'd also be the son and grandson of Tiam, whom he declared his sister and had his own children with... just too ewwww.

[geNESis]

Sinisdar Toste, on 23 February 2010 - 12:52 AM, said:

its entirely possible that olar ethil was involved in osserc's creation. she is known as the First Soletaken and there is still no flat out, on the table, here it is evidence that soletaken ability can be passed from the father and until nimander veers and lady envy reveals she cannot, i can't agree that it is. so, olar shags FL, produces soletaken eleint osserc, then buggers off, leaving him a bastard in some way. or maybe he never had any parents. or maybe olar is talking about someone else entirely?

There is a conversation in TTH in the epilogue between Nimander and Skintick:

' Silanah. Er, very close to Anomander Rake , I'm told.'
' I wonder where she went?'
' You could always awaken Tiam's blood within you, and find out, Nimander.'
' Ah, no thank you.'

There is also the conversaton between Andarist and Cutter in HoC

'... Do you kneel before the wielder of Dragnipur? Does he renew his claims to the blood of the Tiste Andii, then? Has he renounced his Draconian Blood?
' I wouldn't know---'
' Does he now appear as an old man - older by far than me? Ah, I see by your face the truth of it. He has not.

Judging by these quotes it seems that at least with Draconic blood it can be inherited from either side. But there's also an accepting of sorts that has to be acknowledged to gain any of the powers that come with the blood.

[D'rek]

geNESis, on 23 February 2010 - 09:24 PM, said:

Sinisdar Toste, on 23 February 2010 - 12:52 AM, said:

its entirely possible that olar ethil was involved in osserc's creation. she is known as the First Soletaken and there is still no flat out, on the table, here it is evidence that soletaken ability can be passed from the father and until nimander veers and lady envy reveals she cannot, i can't agree that it is. so, olar shags FL, produces soletaken eleint osserc, then buggers off, leaving him a bastard in some way. or maybe he never had any parents. or maybe olar is talking about someone else entirely?

There is a conversation in TTH in the epilogue between Nimander and Skintick:

' Silanah. Er, very close to Anomander Rake , I'm told.'
' I wonder where she went?'
' You could always awaken Tiam's blood within you, and find out, Nimander.'
' Ah, no thank you.'

There is also the conversaton between Andarist and Cutter in HoC

'... Do you kneel before the wielder of Dragnipur? Does he renew his claims to the blood of the Tiste Andii, then? Has he renounced his Draconian Blood?
' I wouldn't know---'
' Does he now appear as an old man - older by far than me? Ah, I see by your face the truth of it. He has not.

Judging by these quotes it seems that at least with Draconic blood it can be inherited from either side. But there's also an accepting of sorts that has to be acknowledged to gain any of the powers that come with the blood.

Nimander has draconic blood, sure, he got it from his father and his mother. Doesn't mean he's necessarily a Soletaken Eleint though, just that some of the parents' blood flows in him. If that is true then of course it would also be true for Envy, daughter of two Soletaken Eleint, but it could also mean she isn't Soletaken Eleint either.

Andarist does not have draconic blood and is not Soletaken. He appears old not because he renounced draconic blood, but because he never had any to begin with.

[amphibian]

Sinisdar Toste, on 23 February 2010 - 12:52 AM, said:

until nimander veers and lady envy reveals she cannot

One of the sisters veered to protect the ship Heboric, Chaur, Barathol, Croaker, Pust and the mule (as well as a couple others I think) during the meteor storm. I forget if it was Envy or Spite. Anyways, the latter point has already been answered.

[MTS]

D, on 23 February 2010 - 01:30 PM, said:

Well, maybe L'oric perhaps? I just really don't see Osserc being the son of OE, because then he'd also be the son and grandson of Tiam, whom he declared his sister and had his own children with... just too ewwww.

Now that's a good idea. Her son doesn't necessarily have to be this big, bad Ascendant type. 'In Light' could just mean that she sheboinged someone associated with Light. In which case Light was in her, and not the other way round.

Although considering Rud Elalle and his parentage, it seems odd that L'oric wouldn't be more powerful if he was their son.

amphibian, on 24 February 2010 - 04:55 AM, said:

Sinisdar Toste, on 23 February 2010 - 12:52 AM, said:

until nimander veers and lady envy reveals she cannot

One of the sisters veered to protect the ship Heboric, Chaur, Barathol, Croaker, Pust and the mule (as well as a couple others I think) during the meteor storm. I forget if it was Envy or Spite. Anyways, the latter point has already been answered.

It was Spite, not Envy.

This post has been edited by MTS: 24 February 2010 - 05:16 AM