[The Black Oil]

Hello everyone.

Having just finished NoK, this forum n00b has a couple questions about things that I still don't quite get.

1. Oleg tells Kiska: "Tell him - that man - transubstantiation must be the of striking. Entombment is the way to end such as him!" And yet, I don't see how any of this comes to play in the end. Kellanved and Dancer's ascension basically seems to consist of them simply walking into the Deadhouse. Admittedly, I'm hardly an expert on transubstantiation and its meaning in theology, but was Oleg referring to Kel and Dancer going from mortal substance to immortal? And what did he mean by "entombment?" Being buried by an Azath barrow, as Oleg ends up after he attacks Kellanved? When Oleg strikes, Kellanved hardly seems to be transubstantiating into anything at that point.

2. Just when it seems Jhenna is beaten, Pralt appears and kills Trenech, giving Jhenna a new chance to escape and eventually forcing Temper to take on the role as Guardian. But Pralt's action doesn't make any sense to me. Why would the Shadow Cult want her to escape? There was no evidence of any alliance between them and Jhenna or the Stormriders, and Kellanved and Dancer are in the Deadhouse by that point, so there doesn't seem to be any more need for diversions. There doesn't seem to be any point to it, other than to make Temper become the Guardian. Unless that is the point, since

Spoiler

at the end of TBH, it's implied that Temper is Kellanved's son.

Am I missing anything obvious in either case? I haven't read RofCG yet, and have just started RG, so if either of these is touched upon in a later book, that is answer enough.

Thanks a lot!

[Silencer]

Alright, you've got the gist of it (except Temper is not Kellanved's son, not in any way. It's a common mistake, but the reference is to the Empire, not Temper).

Transubstation is just a fancy term for ascension to the Throne of Shadow. Basically, when they are knifed in the keep, and jump out the window, they become somewhat like Oleg does - shades, though not shades in their case - and are partway between mortality and godhood. Entombment is indeed getting stuck in an Azath.

The latter case is a mix of speculations, really. One possibility is that Pralt is unaware of K&D's success, in which case he thinks they need more time, so had to distract Jhenna further. Also, it may just be the native isn't 100% continuous - I can't recall it exactly, but I think Temper actually noticed some scrabbling or something at the back of the House at one point.

[D'rek]

As Silencer says, the whole transubstantiation this is a part-mortal part-ascendant part-dead state that can be reached during the shadow moon, as Oleg demonstrates and K&D have also done, and doing so allows them to reach the Shadow realm, like Oleg did (and Kiska followed through some power in Oleg's corpse)

"transubstantiation must be the moment of striking" -> Kellanved will be weak when he's transubstantiated, and it'll be a good time to strike. Oleg follows through on this by attacking Kel while he's transubstatiated in the Azath backyard.

"Entombment is the way to end such as him" -> Kellanved is too powerful to be defeated by ordinary means, the best way to defeat him is to let the Azath take him. Probably Oleg would've kept Kellanved subdued in the Azath backyard until the Azath took Kel if Dancer hadn't taken out Oleg.

---

I always assumed Pralt took out Trenech because if he hadn't Jhenna would've accepted she was beaten, returned to the Azath house and then prevented Kellanved and Dancer from entering it. So, by killing Trenech and letting Jhenna renew her assault, he kept Jhenna from the Azath entrance and allowed Kellanved and Dancer to get in.

[The Black Oil]

Silencer, on 18 February 2010 - 05:54 AM, said:

Alright, you've got the gist of it (except Temper is not Kellanved's son, not in any way. It's a common mistake, but the reference is to the Empire, not Temper).

Was this stated by Erikson at some point? Not that I'm disagreeing with you, as I can see that meaning as well. That whole conversation between Tayschrenn and Shadowthrone is pretty oblique. It's one of the things that is so fascinating and simultaneously maddening about his writing.

Silencer, on 18 February 2010 - 05:54 AM, said:

Transubstation is just a fancy term for ascension to the Throne of Shadow. Basically, when they are knifed in the keep, and jump out the window, they become somewhat like Oleg does - shades, though not shades in their case - and are partway between mortality and godhood. Entombment is indeed getting stuck in an Azath.

I have to admit the fact of Kellanved and Dancer being "ghosts" at that point completely went over my head. I had assumed the events in the keep were just a nice little illusion to make it look like they were dead so everyone would forget about them, but that both were still flesh and blood afterwards. Both actually being DEAD makes sense and explains the transubstantiation thing.

Anyway, thanks again for the responses.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Its not stated outright what they are talking about, but if you read it from the point of view that Tayschrenn is telling him to worry about the Empire he built it makes much more sense. Tayschrenn just brought up Temper because ST said he wasn't afraid of anything and in effect Tay was busting his balls. Its summarized here in the wiki. http://encyclopediam...anved%27s+child

[geNESis]

We can infer from RoTCG that Temper is not Kellanved's son

Spoiler

when speaking of the duel between Dassem, Temper, Ferule and the Guard "Of the three defenders, one hunkered behind a square heavy infantryman's shield. . .the other, a burley Seti, fought with two sturdy long-knives. . . But it was the duel between the Dal Hon and Skinner that took his breath."

You wouldn't refer to someone as 'the Dal Hon' if there was more than one. And we already know both Dassem and Kellanved are both Dal Hon, but not it appears Temper.

This post has been edited by geNESis: 20 February 2010 - 01:08 PM