[HoosierDaddy]

D, on 16 February 2010 - 03:30 AM, said:

MTS, on 16 February 2010 - 03:01 AM, said:

The power he channels is D'riss, though, so the point is moot, really.

Not at all. There's an important distinction between worshipping a god and worshipping a warren - as Kulp says, no one worships the means

Don't cults inherently worship the means by using deity-less warrens?

[Sinisdar Toste]

well, kulps no cultist, and cultists aren't really mages if their treating it like a religion and worshipping shadow

[MTS]

Vesper, on 16 February 2010 - 04:07 AM, said:

Now this is becoming a very informative topic. Somehow I hadn't gotten the impression that the gods were quite as obsessed with the status quo, nor that they were quite as corporeal as they seem. I was kind of put on this thought process by the human-like appearance of Hood, even though he is (or, was) a Jaghut. It took me going back to re-read things like how Paran found the throne of shadow in his own world to understand this a little more. I always thought it was more metaphorical.

This begs the question, though, of how much power warrens can sustain. If two gods can hold dominion over a warren, each granting power to millions of worshipers whilst simultaneously using their own power... seems almost like the warren would get drained like Karnadas was after allowing other Grey Swords to use his magic. Something would have to feed these warrens...

Then again, it could be like the Weave from D&D Forgotten Realms 3.5 (before they fucked everything up), which allowed access to magic for everyone and everything everywhere at all times. It was kind of symbiotic, deriving its existence from those who channeled it so that if Mystra, goddess of the Weave, were to cut off access to the Weave to everybody it (and she) would cease to exist.

I am curious to see if Erikson is going to elaborate on this...

I'm assuming this would have to do with the dragons as sources of sorcery. When Sorrit is crucified Mappo and Icarium remark that the pantheon is being made vulnerable with the deaths of the dragons. Vulnerability implies a sliding scale of strength.

[D'rek]

H.D., on 16 February 2010 - 04:18 AM, said:

D, on 16 February 2010 - 03:30 AM, said:

MTS, on 16 February 2010 - 03:01 AM, said:

The power he channels is D'riss, though, so the point is moot, really.

Not at all. There's an important distinction between worshipping a god and worshipping a warren - as Kulp says, no one worships the means

Don't cults inherently worship the means by using deity-less warrens?

Well there's different types of cults but they all basically worship something that is not a god - Treach's religion was a cult before he became a god, for example. With the Shadow cult or the Rashan cult (potentially the same), I think there is a reference to worshipping an empty throne (probably from Bidithal), so maybe that was it?

Sinisdar Toste, on 16 February 2010 - 04:39 AM, said:

well, kulps no cultist, and cultists aren't really mages if their treating it like a religion and worshipping shadow

Kulp is just a mage - no religious involvement that we know of.

[Vesper]

D, on 16 February 2010 - 06:17 PM, said:

Kulp is just a mage - no religious involvement that we know of.

* was. He was slain by Gryllen. And, as I quoted above, he had a rather non-religious attitude toward sorcery, and believed the warrens not sentient though he felt once in a while like his warren was uncharacteristically attentive to his situation.

[Blend]

Vesper, on 18 February 2010 - 01:35 AM, said:

D, on 16 February 2010 - 06:17 PM, said:

Kulp is just a mage - no religious involvement that we know of.

* was. He was slain by Gryllen. And, as I quoted above, he had a rather non-religious attitude toward sorcery, and believed the warrens not sentient though he felt once in a while like his warren was uncharacteristically attentive to his situation.

Well considering Mockra talks to Seren Pedac in later novels, we can pretty much say that Kulp's theories were simply internal musings.

[Aptorian]

Blend, on 18 February 2010 - 03:43 PM, said:

Well considering Mockra talks to Seren Pedac in later novels, we can pretty much say that Kulp's theories were simply internal musings.

Yes and no. Mocra and Seren Pedac had a long talk in RG. A lot of it was hard to decipher, but it seems that Mocra is a construct made by K'rul to personify the warrens or something, it serves as a kind of conciousness for the whole system. That doesn't rule out that the warrens aren't self aware but it implies that the warrens higher brain functions are manifested as Mocra... or something.

[Vengeance]

Aptorian, on 18 February 2010 - 08:58 PM, said:

Blend, on 18 February 2010 - 03:43 PM, said:

Well considering Mockra talks to Seren Pedac in later novels, we can pretty much say that Kulp's theories were simply internal musings.

Yes and no. Mocra and Seren Pedac had a long talk in RG. A lot of it was hard to decipher, but it seems that Mocra is a construct made by K'rul to personify the warrens or something, it serves as a kind of conciousness for the whole system. That doesn't rule out that the warrens aren't self aware but it implies that the warrens higher brain functions are manifested as Mocra... or something.

Or it could have been that Mockra is egotistical and was trying to make himself out to be more then he is. His number one priority is to mess with peoples minds.

[Aptorian]

Shut up, you.

[DarkFox]

Why doesn't somebody move this topic to a different forum, especially since people are forgetting to put in spoiler alerts.

[haroos]

Aptorian, on 14 February 2010 - 09:01 AM, said:

Why on earth did you post this in the GotM thread?

Also, it feels like you're taking these quotes out of a context, that the rest of us don't know about.

Spoiler

Why are there priests and cults? Just like in our own modern day, the religious figures become leaders, these cults dictate politics. These cults gain influence because they can claim to have a connection with a supreme being that the populace worships or fears. Toc in RG implies that most of the Malazan Gods are not worshipped out of love, but out of a wish for these gods to stay out of their lives, because every one knows ascendants bring a world of hurt.

On top of that, despite what Kulp's quote says, Priests do have power, they can be mages or at least borrow the equivelant powers from the deity or warren. Pust, Heuk from RCG, various shaman are all proof of that.

The Gods are infinitely more powerful than your average mage, they could destroy whole continents if they wanted, but they can also grant boons. That is why they are worshipped. Just because we don't hear much about their every day influence doesn't mean they aren't there, pushing and oulling, healing, blessing, killing. Gods of warrens can summon all the power of that warren. Gods with millions of worshippers can also harness that faith. And they hear every prayer.

Why was quick a High Mage? Because he is a meddling snake that's why. Quick has never worshipped shadow, and certainly not Cots and ST. Quick was a member of the Shadow Cults when they were an extension of the empire. Dancer was the leader of the shadow cults and he made sure that it serves the empires purpose and he weeded out any members that would cause dissent. This is where we hear Quick Ben was helping.

destroy whole continents ...

so would you say that an ascendent like paran is a god ?
we know that rake for example doesn't use great portions of his potential power.
also that paran mentioned that gods are ascendents who are worshipped.
in short, my opinion is that steven erikson doesn't bring at any point a one distinctive definition of a god or an ascnedent.
making each one a case with it's own merits.

[Aptorian]

A God is an ascendant with worshippers. An ascendant without worshippers is not a god. That is the easy way of making the distinction. Of course there is also people who claim to be gods, like an emperor having a cult, these are not "true gods" unless that devotion or their own skill and power drives them to ascend. Then there are the ascendants, who have worshippers, but refuse god hood. Whether they gain power from these worshippers even though they deny them is uncertain.

Paran has not yet, as far as we know, gained many if any worshippers. So no, he is not a God. He could become one though, if a cult forms around his position.

[Hood's Legacy]

Vesper, on 16 February 2010 - 04:07 AM, said:

Now this is becoming a very informative topic. Somehow I hadn't gotten the impression that the gods were quite as obsessed with the status quo, nor that they were quite as corporeal as they seem. I was kind of put on this thought process by the human-like appearance of Hood, even though he is (or, was) a Jaghut. It took me going back to re-read things like how Paran found the throne of shadow in his own world to understand this a little more. I always thought it was more metaphorical.

This begs the question, though, of how much power warrens can sustain. If two gods can hold dominion over a warren, each granting power to millions of worshipers whilst simultaneously using their own power... seems almost like the warren would get drained like Karnadas was after allowing other Grey Swords to use his magic. Something would have to feed these warrens...

Then again, it could be like the Weave from D&D Forgotten Realms 3.5 (before they fucked everything up), which allowed access to magic for everyone and everything everywhere at all times. It was kind of symbiotic, deriving its existence from those who channeled it so that if Mystra, goddess of the Weave, were to cut off access to the Weave to everybody it (and she) would cease to exist.

I am curious to see if Erikson is going to elaborate on this...

One thing that is not being considered is that the warrens hand in hand with elements (excepting Teblor of course). As long as elemental entities exist, there would be warrens. Cutting off access merely blocks you from using it, it does not mean that the warren isn't there. Far be it for me to delve into spirituality, but think of it as your body and soul (No other analogy comes to mind). The elements are your body and the soul would be associated with Kruppe's friend's arterial fluids. (Hope, no spoilers here). Though, imagine this. Since, there is no usage of a warren's power, it would start cummulating, then spilling into adjoining warrens by breaching them (very baadd!!!) and all the warrens might vomit (not bleed) the excess power. How would they manifest in the physical world?