[Cobbles]

Hello ya'll,

so I have finished MoI and I have to say this was the most satisfying reading experience so far. The first book where I think there were more answers than new riddles.

Things I loved:

1) the prologue(s). I read them very carefully and learned a lot. For instance, I think we saw how the imperial warren was created (Kallor's destroyed continent). Also, when Toc woke up in Morn, I kind of was able to guess parts of the plot. We got some information from the Imass in DG, one of them closing a rent. Also it became pretty clear who Nightchill was.

2) Stuff from GotM was answered. Why Tayschrenn killed Nightchill (she apparently wanted Dragnipur). Still doesn't really explain A'Karonys and Hairlock's demise at least as far as I can tell.

3) Tattersail/Silverfox. I now kind of understand what happened in the Bellurdan/Tattersail/Nightchill incident. Still, in GotM, Tool made the enormous magic field which created Silverfox, so why can't he do magic in MoI? Also, it was alluded that Kruppe and K'rul had a hand in that. I reread the scene from GotM and two of Kruppe's dreams, but I can't find any hint how Kruppe or Krul had a hand in Tattersail's rebirth. So maybe I don't understand it after all?

4) The Trygalle Trade Guild. It felt very tacked on and unnecessary in DG. Good to see more about them (although they're insane).

5) Fener's downfall. I think I now have a good understanding what happened. Now, it says that Fener now walks the earth. Did we actually see him in DG or MoI? If so, I missed it.

6) Baudin get's to be Hood's knight. Woot

7) Toc comes back. Woot (although he then dies and resurrects as Anaster?)

8) Tool gets laid. Must feel good after a dry spell of what? some hundreds of thousand years?

9) We see inside Moon's spawn.

10) Quick Ben outsmarts everybody.

11) You gotta love the Mott irregulars.

12) Many more stuff I could mention here.

Now, with all the goodness, here's some questions:

1) It seems Kallor's history is pretty much known to most (important) people. Why would you have this jerk as an ally in the first place? Moreover, he was cursed to never become an ascendent. Except, now, he is. Why did he get a free pass when Nightchill, K'rul and Draconus didn't?

2) The 'master of the deck' power upgrade: 'draw card'. I liked the 'bless' upgrade, in particular since Ganoes kind of stumbled upon it. The 'draw a card then punch it', seems weird. Why not use it on the Seer, or the crippled god?

3) The whole body-switch thing. I can accept someone 'ascend' (before or after dying) and keep his or her body. I can accept Duiker being resurrected as Duiker somehow. I can also accept rebirth as in Coltaine (the Wickans in general) and Tattersail. What is new, and it grates me a bit is the idea of a body switch. I felt wrong. Also, how did Tool get a body? Or should I ask whose body?

4) The whole Togg/Fanderay/Mhybe storyline. I get that K'rul can make warrens. I also get that dreaming women apparently can dream up whole worlds. So far so good. But the whole Togg/Fanderay thing came a little bit out of the left field for my taste. Fanderay was somewhat connected to Baaljagg? Where did Envy find her, then? And how did Toc get connected to Togg (well beside the name coincidence). What was Silverfox's precise game (well she wanted to create the world for the Mhybe, but I guess I didn't get the whole wolf thing which was going on between Toc, the Mhybe and Silverfox).

5) Seguleh. Ok, I get it, they're awesome. But THAT awesome? It's very over the top.

6) The whole 'race to Coral' thing. Ok, with Capustan, the Pannion's seemed like a real thread (big enough to make the Malazans and Rake_Brood work together). Then they got their behinds whacked by the Barghast. Once Capustan was liberated and more intelligence came in, it seemed to me the Pannions weren't that much of a threat any more. I think it was clear to everybody that the whole empire was emptied of people. Everyone was holed up in Coral. Why not just let them wait there until they eat each other? What was the rush? Burn still has years left (if not decades). The poisoning of the warrens didn't seem that much of a point in the latter part of the series (Mallet healing Paran after the condor incident). So, what gives? Let them rot in Coral.

7) Itkovian. Couldn't he wait a bit before his big stunt? The Imass could have ripped the K'ell hunters apart first. As it played out, Gruntle's company and the grey swords had to take on that job (and they lost many, many people) before the Ay arrived. Yeah, way to go Itkovian. Great timing. The whole thing got worse IMHO, when the Imass decided not to be released by Silverfox after all, but to look into this other war to the south. Against a human empire (I guess we'll learn more about it later). If they're ready for another war, they could've waited a bit in Coral, too, IMHO.

8) Whiskeyjack. I didn't get it. So he's a great guy. What didn't work for me is why he made such an impression on everybody. Rake, Korlat, Brood etc. Actually, I didn't like the Bridgeburners very much in GotM. Putting mines throughout a whole city? Not nice. I was rooting for the Darus all the way. In DG, I was ambivalent to the whole uprising at first. Only toward the end, I came down on the side of Coltaine. All in all, I got never that much attached to the Malazans. Whiskeyjack and Dujek are obviously very capable commanders, but the precise quality which impressed for instance Rake so much, I must have missed. It was tragic when he died, but the emotional impact was much less than Coltaines and Duikers deads in DG.

9) The one big mystery is now the crippled god. What's his game, how can Burn survive (I guess the Jaghut ice pack is just temporary relief) and what was the deal with the poisoned warrens. I guess it was the crippled god's work, not the Jaghuts?) Anyway, is it better now or not? Quick Ben found his solution, but what about the other mages?

Anyway, I've started book 4. The prologue didn't tell me anything and after the first 100 or so pages, it feels so different from the first three books. Does it connect at some point? I guess that's a discussion for the next forum. Thanks for reading my ramblings and any kind of response is appreciated.

[Cobbles]

Let me add two more things:

1) a mistake?? Either Coll or Murillio recognizes Baudin as member of a certain people (don't remember precisely) based on his bronze skin. Except, he got his bronce skin from the bronze dragon.

2) The cover is likely the worst of the first three books. I guess it's Stonny and Gruntle on the rooftop in Capustan, so for that matter it's the most 'accurate' cover in terms of actual events in the book. I think the technique is fine. I just hate the dramatic, but very wooden stance of Gruntle. Godawful. But that's just my opinion and YMMV.

[Imperial Historian]

I don't have time to address all of your points, I'm sure someone else will find the time but:

Quote

3) Tattersail/Silverfox. I now kind of understand what happened in the Bellurdan/Tattersail/Nightchill incident. Still, in GotM, Tool made the enormous magic field which created Silverfox, so why can't he do magic in MoI? Also, it was alluded that Kruppe and K'rul had a hand in that. I reread the scene from GotM and two of Kruppe's dreams, but I can't find any hint how Kruppe or Krul had a hand in Tattersail's rebirth. So maybe I don't understand it after all?

It's mentioned in passing that tools magic is being drained by an unknown force... this is silverfox who as well as drawing on her mother, the mhybe, for energy, is also drawing on her father tool for energy, hence he is not as effacious as he might be.

Quote

3) The whole body-switch thing. I can accept someone 'ascend' (before or after dying) and keep his or her body. I can accept Duiker being resurrected as Duiker somehow. I can also accept rebirth as in Coltaine (the Wickans in general) and Tattersail. What is new, and it grates me a bit is the idea of a body switch. I felt wrong. Also, how did Tool get a body? Or should I ask whose body?

Tool did not 'get' a body, his body was returned to it's original form by the memories present in the warren which cause things to revert to there primal state. Re the body switch... we see this twice in GotM, hairlock moving to the stick figure body, and raest moving into mammot's body, so it's not exactly new. Anaster has been wiped clean by iktovian so it's nto surprising another soul can occupy it.

Quote

1) a mistake?? Either Coll or Murillio recognizes Baudin as member of a certain people (don't remember precisely) based on his bronze skin. Except, he got his bronce skin from the bronze dragon.

'Well,' Coll said as he crouched down qver Murillio and gathered the man into his arms, 'Knight of Death won't do, I'm afraid.' He straightened, grunting at the weight in his arms. 'You were a Gidrath, yes? And a Capan - though I admit, with that bronze hue to your skin, you've more the colouring of—'
'No, I was not Gidrath. Not Capan. I am not, I think, from this continent at all. I do not know why I appeared here. Nor how. I have not been here long. This is as my master wills. Of my past, I recall but one thing.'
...
And it seems he does possess mercy, for he's taken you far away from all that you once knew, for if I'm not mistaken, if only by your features and never mind that strange skin, you're Malazan.

So he is a malazan though his bronze skin disguises that.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

I'll try to answer those IH didn't tackle.

 Cobbles, on 05 February 2010 - 05:00 PM, said:

Hello ya'll,

so I have finished MoI and I have to say this was the most satisfying reading experience so far. The first book where I think there were more answers than new riddles.

Things I loved:

1) the prologue(s). I read them very carefully and learned a lot. For instance, I think we saw how the imperial warren was created (Kallor's destroyed continent). Also, when Toc woke up in Morn, I kind of was able to guess parts of the plot. We got some information from the Imass in DG, one of them closing a rent. Also it became pretty clear who Nightchill was.

2) Stuff from GotM was answered. Why Tayschrenn killed Nightchill (she apparently wanted Dragnipur). Still doesn't really explain A'Karonys and Hairlock's demise at least as far as I can tell.

3) Tattersail/Silverfox. I now kind of understand what happened in the Bellurdan/Tattersail/Nightchill incident. Still, in GotM, Tool made the enormous magic field which created Silverfox, so why can't he do magic in MoI? Also, it was alluded that Kruppe and K'rul had a hand in that. I reread the scene from GotM and two of Kruppe's dreams, but I can't find any hint how Kruppe or Krul had a hand in Tattersail's rebirth. So maybe I don't understand it after all?

4) The Trygalle Trade Guild. It felt very tacked on and unnecessary in DG. Good to see more about them (although they're insane).

5) Fener's downfall. I think I now have a good understanding what happened. Now, it says that Fener now walks the earth. Did we actually see him in DG or MoI? If so, I missed it.

6) Baudin get's to be Hood's knight. Woot

7) Toc comes back. Woot (although he then dies and resurrects as Anaster?)

8) Tool gets laid. Must feel good after a dry spell of what? some hundreds of thousand years?

9) We see inside Moon's spawn.

10) Quick Ben outsmarts everybody.

11) You gotta love the Mott irregulars.

12) Many more stuff I could mention here.

Now, with all the goodness, here's some questions:

1) It seems Kallor's history is pretty much known to most (important) people. Why would you have this jerk as an ally in the first place? Moreover, he was cursed to never become an ascendent. Except, now, he is. Why did he get a free pass when Nightchill, K'rul and Draconus didn't?

Sure he is a jerk but he is also an incredibly skilled commander with millenias of experience. Besides it's better to have him close so Brood and Rake can cotrol him,don't you think?

2) The 'master of the deck' power upgrade: 'draw card'. I liked the 'bless' upgrade, in particular since Ganoes kind of stumbled upon it. The 'draw a card then punch it', seems weird. Why not use it on the Seer, or the crippled god?


3) The whole body-switch thing. I can accept someone 'ascend' (before or after dying) and keep his or her body. I can accept Duiker being resurrected as Duiker somehow. I can also accept rebirth as in Coltaine (the Wickans in general) and Tattersail. What is new, and it grates me a bit is the idea of a body switch. I felt wrong. Also, how did Tool get a body? Or should I ask whose body?

4) The whole Togg/Fanderay/Mhybe storyline. I get that K'rul can make warrens. I also get that dreaming women apparently can dream up whole worlds. So far so good. But the whole Togg/Fanderay thing came a little bit out of the left field for my taste. Fanderay was somewhat connected to Baaljagg? Where did Envy find her, then? And how did Toc get connected to Togg (well beside the name coincidence). What was Silverfox's precise game (well she wanted to create the world for the Mhybe, but I guess I didn't get the whole wolf thing which was going on between Toc, the Mhybe and Silverfox).

Not sure about Fanderay/Baaljagg, but right before Toc returns in the mortal world, Togg, the grey one-eyed beast, finds him in the Chaos Warren and decides to possess him

5) Seguleh. Ok, I get it, they're awesome. But THAT awesome? It's very over the top.

Yes they are

6) The whole 'race to Coral' thing. Ok, with Capustan, the Pannion's seemed like a real thread (big enough to make the Malazans and Rake_Brood work together). Then they got their behinds whacked by the Barghast. Once Capustan was liberated and more intelligence came in, it seemed to me the Pannions weren't that much of a threat any more. I think it was clear to everybody that the whole empire was emptied of people. Everyone was holed up in Coral. Why not just let them wait there until they eat each other? What was the rush? Burn still has years left (if not decades). The poisoning of the warrens didn't seem that much of a point in the latter part of the series (Mallet healing Paran after the condor incident). So, what gives? Let them rot in Coral.

Sure, there were no more people in the Domin but there was still a powerful Jaghut who wielded the power of an insane KCCM Matron and a host of undead K'ell Hunters. Besides why leave a work unfinished? As for Mallet being capable of healing that was thanks to the barghast spirists intercession.

7) Itkovian. Couldn't he wait a bit before his big stunt? The Imass could have ripped the K'ell hunters apart first. As it played out, Gruntle's company and the grey swords had to take on that job (and they lost many, many people) before the Ay arrived. Yeah, way to go Itkovian. Great timing. The whole thing got worse IMHO, when the Imass decided not to be released by Silverfox after all, but to look into this other war to the south. Against a human empire (I guess we'll learn more about it later). If they're ready for another war, they could've waited a bit in Coral, too, IMHO.

That's the actuall point. Itkovian, being who he was, would not wait a mnute even knowing the costs. Besides, the T'lann Imass wouldn't have fared very well against the K'ell. Outside Capustan it was the T'lann Ay who saved them.

8) Whiskeyjack. I didn't get it. So he's a great guy. What didn't work for me is why he made such an impression on everybody. Rake, Korlat, Brood etc. Actually, I didn't like the Bridgeburners very much in GotM. Putting mines throughout a whole city? Not nice. I was rooting for the Darus all the way. In DG, I was ambivalent to the whole uprising at first. Only toward the end, I came down on the side of Coltaine. All in all, I got never that much attached to the Malazans. Whiskeyjack and Dujek are obviously very capable commanders, but the precise quality which impressed for instance Rake so much, I must have missed. It was tragic when he died, but the emotional impact was much less than Coltaines and Duikers deads in DG.

9) The one big mystery is now the crippled god. What's his game, how can Burn survive (I guess the Jaghut ice pack is just temporary relief) and what was the deal with the poisoned warrens. I guess it was the crippled god's work, not the Jaghuts?) Anyway, is it better now or not? Quick Ben found his solution, but what about the other mages?

Read on about the CG. Yes it was his influence that made the Warrens sick but now thanks to Pannion's opening of Omtose Phellack in Burn's Warren, the infection has slowed.

Anyway, I've started book 4. The prologue didn't tell me anything and after the first 100 or so pages, it feels so different from the first three books. Does it connect at some point? I guess that's a discussion for the next forum. Thanks for reading my ramblings and any kind of response is appreciated.

Don't worry. The first book of HoC actually ties in with things before DhG but the rest of the book will continue the story after the Fall. Besides it introduces an incredibly important character.

This post has been edited by Bauchelain the Evil: 05 February 2010 - 06:30 PM

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

1) Kallor hasn't ascended, he was just cursed to live forever, but as a mortal if that makes sense. Basically it means he could be killed, but he's not going to die of old age or natural causes like a normal human. The bad part of that for him, is he never stops aging. Imagine seeing a human around 100,000 years old, it'd be creepy. He manages to get around that by having those alchemical century candles, they grant longer life so he kind of found a way around the curse. Though he still looks to be about 100 years old.

2) Paran couldn't just draw a card for the Seer or the CG because they don't have cards in the deck. At the end of the book Paran is thinking on whether or not to accept the House of Chains.

3) Just to add onto what IH said; Toc got Anaster's body because Anaster's entire life and soul were pain and evil, so when Itkovian took those away for him, he was left virtually as a shell. Toc was given that body, I believe, because of how he had helped to re-unite Togg and Fanderay, and they were rewarding him. Possible spoiler here, I'm not sure,

Spoiler

also he was made their mortal sword when they brought him back

4) Silverfox intended the dream world to be a realm for they Mhybe as a reward for letting Silverfox suck the life out of her. It was also going to be a realm for the spirits of the Rhivi, because they did not have a place to go. When Itkovian took the memories of the T'lan Imass, he fed them into that place and gave it life. Then Togg and Fanderay were united and appropriated it for their own use, re-awakening the Beast Hold and assuming its thrones, and their rightful place as the Gods of War now that Fener was torn down. Toc was connected to Togg when he was thrown into the vortex of chaos back in GotM by Hairlock. Togg had been wandering there lost for millennia, and when he found Toc he decided to piggy-back out on his soul. When Toc kills himself he sets Togg free.

5) They just are that awesome. Learn to deal with it. (tho Mok is great even for them)

6) It wasn't really the people of the Pannion Domin that they feared, but the CG controlled Jaghut using chaotic sorcery, the insane K'Chain Che Malle Matron and her army of undead K'ell hunters. And that was the place where the poison infecting all of the warrens came from. It was different than the poison affecting Burn, that is because the CG is chained to her. The other poisoning was more of an offensive move directed at all of K'rul's warrens and carried out through the Pannion Domin. Someone might come along and correct me on all that though because I'm not positive.

7) Just a question/comment here. How are you not floored at the fact that a human army is annihilating entire T'lan Imass clans?!!!??! I have never seen anyone casually shrug off the first mention of Assail like that.

Edit: Shouldn't have left to go make lunch halfway thru my answer I guess lol

This post has been edited by WhiskeyJackDaniels: 05 February 2010 - 06:34 PM

[Mott]

Hey,

I'm not long finished reading the MoI as well so I could be mistaken over somethings, so feel free to correct me.

8) I think It's quite a personal thing how much you connect with certain characters. I seem to fall on the side of loving the Bridgeburners and Whiskyjack. I admit to crying when whiskyjack died. I don't see them as malicious and although I was also rooting for Daru I don't think the bridgeburners where taking joy in their assignment.

They where betrayed at Pale, or they at least thought they had been, they had been trying to do the near impossible of undermining Pales walls and when the tunnels they where in collapsed the greater part of their forces perished. Then they get sent into Daru to lace the city with explosives, as do the claws whose job it is to kill the leaders to allow for a Malazan takeover. I think the Bridgeburners are supposed to die in Daru, Laseen wants Whiskyjack dead at any rate so he had to follow her commands no matter how much he dislikes them as he is already under suspicion. He could have been Emperor but he doesn't want that power yet a lot are loyal to him and follow him so he is a threat. If he does anything to reinforce this such as not following a command he puts himself and the people he commands in danger of which there is already enough. The Bridgeburners are like a family really.

I don't think they truly love fighting as they took their chance out of the army since the greater part of their family died and by the end they are together in Daru, they didn't bear spite towards Darujhistan or it's residents they really where just doing a job, one that was likely would kill them but one which they would be as good as dead if they didn't accept.

As for Whiskyjack himself, I can't place my finger on the exact quality that draws people to him but I know people that have that ability in life and I don't know how they do it either. in general though I think for a soldier he is pretty remarkable. He has courage and beleifs but he also has a great humility, he is very loyal, he risks his life for those he cares for and even for those he doesn't quite care for. He shows a lot of mercy and he really manages to connect with people on a personal level. He was once one of the most powerful men in the entire empire so he relates to people like Annomander and Itkovian who have great responsbility and carry a lot of greif and regret on their shoulders, people who have to make hard decisions and command and he also relates to the lowliest of the soldiers, like the marines. He has empathy, a lot of it, and respects his enemies and is not brutal for the sake of it.

Ah yeah I basically just think he is all kinds of awsome, I hope some of that made sense, i've manged to confuse myself.

9) The crippled God is chained to burn, and the infection has been slowed by omtose phellack but Burn has seen this coming which was why she gave Brood the sword and why she sleeps. He seems to have two options, one to let Burn and her warren die but if this occurs then the crippled God will use Burns warren to infect all the others and so bring about the end of sourcery and start I think his destruction of life and such the like. The second option he has is to use the hammer that has Burns power in it to wake her up but if he wakes her up he could destroy the world in the process such would be the impact. I think though it come to light that Burn expects him to come up with a third option a way of defeating the Cripple God and the threat he poses to Burn and the warrens.

2) The others Gods urge Paran not to Bless the crippled God and allow him into the deck but Paran sees that the Crippled God is working out with the rules and structure the deck pushes on the Gods and so surmises that if he does indeed allow the High House of Chains to become a part of the deck then the cripple God will be forced to follow the rules. So at the moment he has not been legitimised and as master of the deck Paran does not have that power over him.

I'm on House of Chains at the moment, I found the start quite different in style as well but I seem to have gotten past that book now and am pretty much cheering at the reintroduction of the old characters.

[alt146]

My 2c on some of the stuff that might not have been answered yet:

 Cobbles, on 05 February 2010 - 05:00 PM, said:

Hello ya'll,

so I have finished MoI and I have to say this was the most satisfying reading experience so far. The first book where I think there were more answers than new riddles.

Things I loved:

1) the prologue(s). I read them very carefully and learned a lot. For instance, I think we saw how the imperial warren was created (Kallor's destroyed continent). Also, when Toc woke up in Morn, I kind of was able to guess parts of the plot. We got some information from the Imass in DG, one of them closing a rent. Also it became pretty clear who Nightchill was.

2) Stuff from GotM was answered. Why Tayschrenn killed Nightchill (she apparently wanted Dragnipur). Still doesn't really explain A'Karonys and Hairlock's demise at least as far as I can tell.

What happened at the siege of Pale is a bit muddled - the first book was written some years before the next ones and SE retconned what happened in this book. You just kinda have to live with it, but it is probably one of the more annoying discrepancies between GoTM and the following books.

3) Tattersail/Silverfox. I now kind of understand what happened in the Bellurdan/Tattersail/Nightchill incident. Still, in GotM, Tool made the enormous magic field which created Silverfox, so why can't he do magic in MoI? Also, it was alluded that Kruppe and K'rul had a hand in that. I reread the scene from GotM and two of Kruppe's dreams, but I can't find any hint how Kruppe or Krul had a hand in Tattersail's rebirth. So maybe I don't understand it after all?

There's a scene in GotM where a Rhivi woman with an empty child comes to Krul's campfire and Krul and Kruppe move Tattersail's soul from nightchill's broken body into the baby. This was the birth of silverfox.

4) The Trygalle Trade Guild. It felt very tacked on and unnecessary in DG. Good to see more about them (although they're insane).

5) Fener's downfall. I think I now have a good understanding what happened. Now, it says that Fener now walks the earth. Did we actually see him in DG or MoI? If so, I missed it.

6) Baudin get's to be Hood's knight. Woot

7) Toc comes back. Woot (although he then dies and resurrects as Anaster?)

8) Tool gets laid. Must feel good after a dry spell of what? some hundreds of thousand years?

9) We see inside Moon's spawn.

10) Quick Ben outsmarts everybody.

11) You gotta love the Mott irregulars.

12) Many more stuff I could mention here.

Now, with all the goodness, here's some questions:

1) It seems Kallor's history is pretty much known to most (important) people. Why would you have this jerk as an ally in the first place? Moreover, he was cursed to never become an ascendent. Except, now, he is. Why did he get a free pass when Nightchill, K'rul and Draconus didn't?

As has been said, he's immortal, but not an ascendant. So while he is pretty powerful and has thousands of years worth of experience, he is cursed to never reach the point where he could be considered to have godlike powers.

2) The 'master of the deck' power upgrade: 'draw card'. I liked the 'bless' upgrade, in particular since Ganoes kind of stumbled upon it. The 'draw a card then punch it', seems weird. Why not use it on the Seer, or the crippled god?

3) The whole body-switch thing. I can accept someone 'ascend' (before or after dying) and keep his or her body. I can accept Duiker being resurrected as Duiker somehow. I can also accept rebirth as in Coltaine (the Wickans in general) and Tattersail. What is new, and it grates me a bit is the idea of a body switch. I felt wrong. Also, how did Tool get a body? Or should I ask whose body?

Duiker was resurrected because he was wearing the spirit trapping vial intended for coltaine when he died in DG. Tool didnt get a new body, it's more along the lines that the ritual that made the Imass into the T'lan Imass was reversed.

4) The whole Togg/Fanderay/Mhybe storyline. I get that K'rul can make warrens. I also get that dreaming women apparently can dream up whole worlds. So far so good. But the whole Togg/Fanderay thing came a little bit out of the left field for my taste. Fanderay was somewhat connected to Baaljagg? Where did Envy find her, then? And how did Toc get connected to Togg (well beside the name coincidence). What was Silverfox's precise game (well she wanted to create the world for the Mhybe, but I guess I didn't get the whole wolf thing which was going on between Toc, the Mhybe and Silverfox).

5) Seguleh. Ok, I get it, they're awesome. But THAT awesome? It's very over the top.

6) The whole 'race to Coral' thing. Ok, with Capustan, the Pannion's seemed like a real thread (big enough to make the Malazans and Rake_Brood work together). Then they got their behinds whacked by the Barghast. Once Capustan was liberated and more intelligence came in, it seemed to me the Pannions weren't that much of a threat any more. I think it was clear to everybody that the whole empire was emptied of people. Everyone was holed up in Coral. Why not just let them wait there until they eat each other? What was the rush? Burn still has years left (if not decades). The poisoning of the warrens didn't seem that much of a point in the latter part of the series (Mallet healing Paran after the condor incident). So, what gives? Let them rot in Coral.

7) Itkovian. Couldn't he wait a bit before his big stunt? The Imass could have ripped the K'ell hunters apart first. As it played out, Gruntle's company and the grey swords had to take on that job (and they lost many, many people) before the Ay arrived. Yeah, way to go Itkovian. Great timing. The whole thing got worse IMHO, when the Imass decided not to be released by Silverfox after all, but to look into this other war to the south. Against a human empire (I guess we'll learn more about it later). If they're ready for another war, they could've waited a bit in Coral, too, IMHO.

8) Whiskeyjack. I didn't get it. So he's a great guy. What didn't work for me is why he made such an impression on everybody. Rake, Korlat, Brood etc. Actually, I didn't like the Bridgeburners very much in GotM. Putting mines throughout a whole city? Not nice. I was rooting for the Darus all the way. In DG, I was ambivalent to the whole uprising at first. Only toward the end, I came down on the side of Coltaine. All in all, I got never that much attached to the Malazans. Whiskeyjack and Dujek are obviously very capable commanders, but the precise quality which impressed for instance Rake so much, I must have missed. It was tragic when he died, but the emotional impact was much less than Coltaines and Duikers deads in DG.

What makes Whiskeyjack great is probably one of the most subtle things in the series. It's mainly the little snippets that you learn about him in various flashbacks throughout the book - how the bridgeburners were formed probably did it for me, but basically you had this person who could probably have fought Laseen for the malazan throne when she first took it, but decided not to. After that he was slowly bumped down through the ranks, but did so with good grace and humility, managing to retain the respect and admiration of those above and below him every step of the way. He had tons of empathy as well as being a truly capable soldier, it was a huge tragedy that he died a pretty pointless death as things were starting to look up for him.

9) The one big mystery is now the crippled god. What's his game, how can Burn survive (I guess the Jaghut ice pack is just temporary relief) and what was the deal with the poisoned warrens. I guess it was the crippled god's work, not the Jaghuts?) Anyway, is it better now or not? Quick Ben found his solution, but what about the other mages?

Anyway, I've started book 4. The prologue didn't tell me anything and after the first 100 or so pages, it feels so different from the first three books. Does it connect at some point? I guess that's a discussion for the next forum. Thanks for reading my ramblings and any kind of response is appreciated.

I'm not sure if this was ever confirmed, bbut the rumour mill has it that the start of the fourth book was just SE responding to critics who said he wasn't capable of writing a single-character story. Everything clicks into place at the end of the first 'book' and slots in very well with what we've seen already. That's actually one of my favourite sections in the series, it's great once you get over the very confusing change in style.

I'm glad you've decided to stick with the series and seem to be enjoying it more, happy reading!

[Sindriss]

Quote

1) Kallor hasn't ascended, he was just cursed to live forever, but as a mortal if that makes sense. Basically it means he could be killed, but he's not going to die of old age or natural causes like a normal human. The bad part of that for him, is he never stops aging. Imagine seeing a human around 100,000 years old, it'd be creepy. He manages to get around that by having those alchemical century candles, they grant longer life so he kind of found a way around the curse. Though he still looks to be about 100 years old.

Actually, that isn't correct. He was cursed to never ascend, to never truly succeed and to never get anything beside hesitent respect from others, no matter what he accomplishes. The reason he continues to live is that he uses alchemy, namely some sort of century candlesticks that prolongs his life.

[Sinisdar Toste]

actually the curse included the very words "you shall know mortal life unending", which seems to be what wjd's is explaining

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

 Sindriss, on 14 February 2010 - 10:57 AM, said:

Quote

1) Kallor hasn't ascended, he was just cursed to live forever, but as a mortal if that makes sense. Basically it means he could be killed, but he's not going to die of old age or natural causes like a normal human. The bad part of that for him, is he never stops aging. Imagine seeing a human around 100,000 years old, it'd be creepy. He manages to get around that by having those alchemical century candles, they grant longer life so he kind of found a way around the curse. Though he still looks to be about 100 years old.

Actually, that isn't correct. He was cursed to never ascend, to never truly succeed and to never get anything beside hesitent respect from others, no matter what he accomplishes. The reason he continues to live is that he uses alchemy, namely some sort of century candlesticks that prolongs his life.

No, the reason he never receives anything other than hesitant respect from soldiers is a line from GotM when it is being explained that he is a tactical genius like Brood and Rake, but not a leader of men. Soldiers will respect his efficacy but he doesn't garner their love and admiration.

[Sinisdar Toste]

here's the full quote just to make it all clear

"For this, Kallor, we deliver appropriate punishment. Know this: you, Kallor Eiderann Tes'thesula, shall know mortal life unending. Mortal in the ravages of age, in the pain of wounds and the anguish of despair. In dreams brought to ruin. In love withered. In the shadow of Death's spectre, ever a threat to end what you will not relinquish."
Draconus spoke: "Kallor Eiderann Tes'thesula, you shall never ascend."
Their sister said, "Kallor Eiderann Tes'thesula, each time you rise, you shall then fall. All that you achieve shall turn to dust in your hands. As you have willfully done here, so it shall be in turn visited upon all that you do."

[Sindriss]

Okay, I was wrong on the Mortal life unending part. Still doesn't exactly explain why he uses those century candlelights then, or maybe that is his way to still maintain some sort of vigor instead of becoming increasingly frail.
I also figured that the reason he could never get anything besides respect for his efficacy, is because of the third curse,

Quote

Kallor Eiderann Tes'thesula, each time you rise, you shall then fall. All that you achieve shall turn to dust in your hands. As you have willfully done here, so it shall be in turn visited upon all that you do.

Makes sense to me at least:)

[MTS]

 Sindriss, on 15 February 2010 - 10:57 AM, said:

Okay, I was wrong on the Mortal life unending part. Still doesn't exactly explain why he uses those century candlelights then, or maybe that is his way to still maintain some sort of vigor instead of becoming increasingly frail.


Makes sense to me at least:)

I believe he says this is the exact reason during MOI or TTH.

[Cobbles]

Thanks ya'll for reading my stuff and answering questions. It seemed I missed some stuff (well, no wonder considering how large and complex the story is). Let me recap:

The events during the siege of Pale were muddled. Maybe the best we can assume is that Nightchill wanted Dragnipur, for that, Tayschrenn killed her. It is unclear why he killed a bunch of other mages too (A'Karonys, Hairlock) maybe he assumed they were on Nightchill's side (in which case he should've taken out Bellurdan as well, I guess, but let's not think about it too much).

The birth of Tattersail/Silverfox. alt146 wrote that there's a scene in GotM where K'rul and Kruppe move Tattersail's soul. Could you please direct me to that scene? I must have missed it (I have the US MMP in case you know a page number). I also read the explanation that Tool is drained by Silverfox and therefore cannot do magic in MoI. But Tool was never a bonecaster. He's the first sword. It says in MoI that Pran Chole had a hand in the whole affair. It'd make much more sense if Pran did the whole magic field thing. Maybe a small inconsistency between MoI and GotM?

Something no one has addressed so far. It says Fener now walks the earth (as a mortal?) Have we seen the mortal Fener so far in the series? No one in particular comes to my mind. First I thought one of the soletaken in DG around Tremolor, but as far as I can remember there was no boar.

Ok, the Kallor thing has created the most discussion. It says flat out in the book that Kallor has assumed the position of knight? in the House of Chains. There's also a herald (stolen from Hood), a lady (of pestilence) and a beggar (I assume the poor sod who loses his legs), too and maybe one or two more which I missed. Anyway, the Knight of House of Chains is an 'ascendent' position I assume. You could get around by saying that the House of Chains is not officially sanctioned, so none of its members are officially ascendents. If that's the line of reasoning then what would happen if Ganoes gives his blessing? Kallor's curse is lifted?

Draw a card and punch it. Ok I get that neither the Seer nor the CG has a card (so far). But neither has the condor (as far as I know), nor does Moon's Spawn, still Ganoes draws a card and it works. Still unclear to me.

I'm somewhat reconciled with the body-switch thing now. Not too happy about it, still, but I accept it. By the way, Imperial Historian, Anaster hasn't been wiped clean by Itkovian, he wouldn't do it without Anaster's consent. It was the new Destriant of the Grey Swords who did it (the girl).

Togg/Fanderay/Mhybe: Thanks WhiskeyJackDaniels, I think your explanation puts it all together very well. It also answers something I forgot to ask in the first place. QB sacrificed a goat outside Pale but complained that the Rhivi spirits were gone. Nice to know where they went. It still leaves out the Baaljagg/Fanderay thing.

The rest is answered pretty much to my satisfaction. Thanks again for stepping up, helping me out and correcting me in places. Please have a try at my new questions:

1) Where in GotM do we see Kruppe/K'rul shift Tattersail's sould into the Mhybe's child? (I missed it).
2) Should Tool be able to do magic? Is he a bonecaster? Or should it have been Pran Chole who did the magic field in GotM?
3) Have we seen the mortal Fener walk the earth somewhere in the series?
4) Is knight of House of Chains an ascendent? If so is Kallors curse lifted?
5) The 'draw a card' thing is still unclear to me.
6) Where did Lady Envy find Baaljagg/Fanderay?

PS to WhiskeyJackDaniels: I wasn't really surprised to see the Imass in trouble by a human empire after seeing Tool struggle against the Seguleh. Also, after reading part of the next book, I suspect that the guys in the place called 'Assail' might not be entirely human.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

 Sindriss, on 15 February 2010 - 10:57 AM, said:

Okay, I was wrong on the Mortal life unending part. Still doesn't exactly explain why he uses those century candlelights then, or maybe that is his way to still maintain some sort of vigor instead of becoming increasingly frail.
I also figured that the reason he could never get anything besides respect for his efficacy, is because of the third curse,

Quote

Kallor Eiderann Tes'thesula, each time you rise, you shall then fall. All that you achieve shall turn to dust in your hands. As you have willfully done here, so it shall be in turn visited upon all that you do.

Makes sense to me at least:)

Maybe you're right, and people just don't respect him because they know he will ultimately fail at all his endeavors. But that kind of pre-supposes that everyone knows the exact terms of his curse. And outside a few people like Rake and Brood that might have had contact with the EG's that cursed him it is pretty unlikely the curses were common knowledge. Doesn't it make more sense to you that people don't like Kallor because he's a dick?

[alt146]

1) Beginning of the first Chapter of Book 4 - 'Assassins' in GotM. Slight misremberance by me - It's where Kruppe meets Pran Chole after dreaming Krul's fireplace, so it's technically Kruppe who does the shifting, with some help from Pran Chole and obliquely from Krul.
2)This point is also a bit like the Siege of Pale - Tool can't do magic in GotM, he can only dampen it around him. After the first book though, we never hear of him or any other Imass having this ability. Technically though it can be explained by him having the ability due to his position as first sword and losing it due to what happens with Tattersail.
3)We do at some point, but afaik he hasnt been masquerading as anyone.
4)Places within the deck aren't really that related to ascendancy - in a reading of the deck, positions could just refer to who will perform a certain role at that specific place and time. When the positions are used specifically with reference to the pantheon, it just indicates the role someone plays in that house. In both cases the cards can and will change pretty often, and holding that position doesn't infer any power in and of itself. Someone can assume a (semi-permanent) position in the due to ascending, such as is the case with Shadowthrone and Cotillion. The inverse isnt true though, and Kallor's position is more an indication that he has sortof been made the Crippled God's head-honcho than anything else. The whole relationship between ascendancy, godhood and positions in the deck is pretty muddied, it's good to remember that they are not necessarily the same thing and have more to do with power, worship and intent respectively.

Can't really remember enough to explain the other two properly, MoI is the next on my reread list and it's been a year or two.

[D'rek]

 Cobbles, on 15 February 2010 - 05:05 PM, said:

Thanks ya'll for reading my stuff and answering questions. It seemed I missed some stuff (well, no wonder considering how large and complex the story is). Let me recap:

The events during the siege of Pale were muddled. Maybe the best we can assume is that Nightchill wanted Dragnipur, for that, Tayschrenn killed her. It is unclear why he killed a bunch of other mages too (A'Karonys, Hairlock) maybe he assumed they were on Nightchill's side (in which case he should've taken out Bellurdan as well, I guess, but let's not think about it too much).

Well, knowing Nightchill and Bellurdan were after Dragnipur makes the battle three-sided, which convoludes it enough that anyone could have killed A'Karonys, Hairlock and Calot. Dujek says A'Karonys was on Tayschrenn's side (he ratted on Nightchill), so one would think Nightchill killed him (also since he died of an icey spell - very NightCHILL-ish), only issue being Tattersail recounted it as happeneing after Nightchill died so you'd have to assume Tattersail remembered wrong (or Nightchill hit him with a slowly-occuring spell). As for Hairlock and Calot, it seems odd that Tayschrenn would bother attacking them when he's gone Bellurdan, Nightchill AND Rake to deal with. The GotM part talks about Tayschrenn shoving aside Rake's attacks, I would think that maybe he deflected Rake's attack into Calot/Hairlock? Then again, Hairlock was Old Guard like Nightchill and the rest, so Tay could've taken him out "just in case" he was in league with Nightchill.

The birth of Tattersail/Silverfox. alt146 wrote that there's a scene in GotM where K'rul and Kruppe move Tattersail's soul. Could you please direct me to that scene? I must have missed it (I have the US MMP in case you know a page number). I also read the explanation that Tool is drained by Silverfox and therefore cannot do magic in MoI. But Tool was never a bonecaster. He's the first sword. It says in MoI that Pran Chole had a hand in the whole affair. It'd make much more sense if Pran did the whole magic field thing. Maybe a small inconsistency between MoI and GotM?

Tool isn't a Bonecaster, but because he is the First Sword he projects an effect of Tellan in a given radius around him, that tampers with most sorceries within the radius and probably gives him special proclivities to things going on in the radius. It is this that is diminished in MoI.

Something no one has addressed so far. It says Fener now walks the earth (as a mortal?) Have we seen the mortal Fener so far in the series? No one in particular comes to my mind. First I thought one of the soletaken in DG around Tremolor, but as far as I can remember there was no boar.

In DG when Felisin touches the jade/otataral-infected stump of Heboric to
Heboric's sacred tatoo, Fener is pulled into the realm and she gets a glimpse of
an enormous hoof stepping down into the mortal world. The rest is RAFO.

Ok, the Kallor thing has created the most discussion. It says flat out in the book that Kallor has assumed the position of knight? in the House of Chains. There's also a herald (stolen from Hood), a lady (of pestilence) and a beggar (I assume the poor sod who loses his legs), too and maybe one or two more which I missed. Anyway, the Knight of House of Chains is an 'ascendent' position I assume. You could get around by saying that the House of Chains is not officially sanctioned, so none of its members are officially ascendents. If that's the line of reasoning then what would happen if Ganoes gives his blessing? Kallor's curse is lifted?

Gethol was the Death Herald and is now the Herald of Chains. Poliel is the Consort of Chains. Kallor seems to be offered the King position by Gethol, but later when Quick Ben talks to Hood, Hood says: "'Betrayal, aye. Poliel, Mistress of Pestilence, aspires to the role of Consort to the King in Chains. A Herald has been recruited. An ancient warrior seeks to become Reaver; whilst the House has found, in a distant land, its Mortal Sword. Mowri now embraces the Three - Cripple, Leper and Fool -
which are in place of Spinner, Mason and Soldier. Most disturbing of all, ancient power trembles around the last of the dread cards."

the "ancien warrior" is Kallor and as it turns out he is the Reaver of Chains. Mowri embracing Cripple, Leper and Fool is a bit weird and I don't mind spoiling doesn't really come up again. There is some speculation that Munug, the artist, is also in a sense the Cripple of Chains. Knight, King, Mortal Sword and other candidates for Leper and Fool are revealed in later books.

(HoC spoiler for later if you want to check)

Spoiler

Karsa = Knight, the "ancient power" being the Toblakai
Silgar = Leper

(MT)

Spoiler

Rhulad = Mortal Sword since MT is pre-MoI. After the House is sanctioned he is the King in Chains.

(BH)

Spoiler

Tene Baralta may be the Fool, or may be just another minion of the CG.

Draw a card and punch it. Ok I get that neither the Seer nor the CG has a card (so far). But neither has the condor (as far as I know), nor does Moon's Spawn, still Ganoes draws a card and it works. Still unclear to me.

Just like how in the Azath Paran saw cards/tiles representing all the elements of existance or some such, he could conceivably make anything manifested by a card in the Deck if he wanted to. Then, as Master, he has some power over it by using the Deck. Of course he's not only very new to his power, but doesn't fully understand it yet so presumably the CG or Pannion could resist him doing that to them from afar.

I'm somewhat reconciled with the body-switch thing now. Not too happy about it, still, but I accept it. By the way, Imperial Historian, Anaster hasn't been wiped clean by Itkovian, he wouldn't do it without Anaster's consent. It was the new Destriant of the Grey Swords who did it (the girl).

Togg/Fanderay/Mhybe: Thanks WhiskeyJackDaniels, I think your explanation puts it all together very well. It also answers something I forgot to ask in the first place. QB sacrificed a goat outside Pale but complained that the Rhivi spirits were gone. Nice to know where they went. It still leaves out the Baaljagg/Fanderay thing.

Bauchelain and Korbal Broach and cleaned them out for some mysterious necromancer stuff.

The rest is answered pretty much to my satisfaction. Thanks again for stepping up, helping me out and correcting me in places. Please have a try at my new questions:

1) Where in GotM do we see Kruppe/K'rul shift Tattersail's sould into the Mhybe's child? (I missed it). Start of one of the middle-ish chapters, I think. Go to each chapter-start and if it's got Kruppe in a dream keep reading.
2) Should Tool be able to do magic? Is he a bonecaster? Or should it have been Pran Chole who did the magic field in GotM?
3) Have we seen the mortal Fener walk the earth somewhere in the series?
4) Is knight of House of Chains an ascendent? If so is Kallors curse lifted?
5) The 'draw a card' thing is still unclear to me.
6) Where did Lady Envy find Baaljagg/Fanderay? She says a sibling of hers made Baaljagg immortal by using her as a receptacle for Fanderay's injured soul or something like that. Maybe that sibling eventually met up with Envy and Baaljagg left with Envy at the time. (Note that Envy refers to the sibling as a 'he', but many suspect this is a MoIism and should be 'she' for Envy's sister Spite)

PS to WhiskeyJackDaniels: I wasn't really surprised to see the Imass in trouble by a human empire after seeing Tool struggle against the Seguleh. Also, after reading part of the next book, I suspect that the guys in the place called 'Assail' might not be entirely human.

[MTS]

D'rek pretty much has that all covered. The scene where Silverfox is born is the start of Chapter 11 though.

[Hetan]

The whole thing with Tattersail's rebirth and the presence of Kruppe and Pran Chole is explained in these sentences :-

Quote

‘Within you is the past,’ Pran said. ‘My world. You know the present, and the Rhivi offers you to the future. In this place all is merged. The flesh you wear has upon it a spell of preservation, and in your dying act you opened your Warren within the influence of Tellann. And now you wander within a mortal’s dream. Kruppe is the vessel of change. Permit us to aid you.’

Basically because she died within the warren of Tellann it needed a Bonecaster to keep her alive while the Rhivi woman did the soulshifting ritual. Bridging the past, present and future together was Kruppes job.

Regarding Baaljagg :-

Quote

'Then standing before her, a figure. Cowled, swathed in roughly woven black wool, a hand - wrapped in leather straps, down to the very fingers - reaching out. Warmth. Welcome, a palpable compassion, a single touch to the creature's lowered forehead. The touch, Toc realised, of an Elder God.... and a voice: ' You are the last, now. The very last, and there will be need for you. In time. Thus, I promise that I shall bring to you..a lost spirit. Torn from its flesh. A suitable one, of course. For that reason, my search may be a long one. Patience little one... and in the meantime this gift '.........

Finally however, the gift had come, the torn soul delivered to her own, where they merged, eventually became one.'......

Lanas Tog to Lady Envy : "Who has granted the beast this edged gift?"
"A misguided sibling who'd thought he was being kind. Alright, perhaps that was too simplistic an answer. My sibling had found the godess terribly damaged by the Fall, and needed a warm-blooded place to lay her spirit, so that it could heal. Serendipity. The ay's pack was dead, whilst she herself was too young to survive in normal circumstances. Worse yet, she was the last left on the entire continent."

As has been said before we don't know when Envy met up with the ay, could have been anywhere and is not really relevant.

You asked if the Knight of Chains is an ascendant - it's not necessary for those who hold the position to be an ascendant.
Regarding Fener - you will meet him again in later books.
Not sure what your problem is with Paran drawing a card, so perhaps you'd like to explain. Being Master of the Deck, he can't just go round killing off anyone he doesn't like - man's got responsibilities with that job.

[Skrzypek]

hello, i have a question about Moon's spawn. Was it necessary to destroy it by hiding in a sea and than smashing the tower?