[Grayghost]

Hood, on 05 April 2010 - 11:38 AM, said:

Grayghost, on 01 April 2010 - 06:18 AM, said:

Verjigorm,

It is too bad you feel this way, but understandable, if as you say, you have nothing to relate it to. But, on the other hand, for me, the Chain of Dogs was less about Coltaine and more about everyone else. Having served, you do sometimes run into commanders who rarely solicit outside advice, so for me it was more about how does one respond to that absolute loss of control, or in other words "Ours is not to reason why" mentality. When your input is neither solicited nor wanted, you merely do the best you can do under the circumstances, or as in the case of the commander of the engineers, dont show up for command meetings so that you are not really going against orders...hell, can't complain if you never got them. I guess this is just my way of saying that is was the little heroics that catch your breath, that all of the sacrifices up to the fall were in vain. I cried for the little people, the soldier on the line, the engineers...and don't think that civilians can not be "uber stupid"...they can...believe me, they can.

Dude, the civvies aren't stupid, most of them were peasants who were trying to escape with their lives. In their fear, they act as unherded cattle being hunted by wolves. The Wickans and the seventh acted like the 'guard dogs' herding the cattle to safety. Only the wolves outnumbered the dogs, in woefully large numbers...

Garak had it right. I wasn't talking about all civies...in this case, merely the ones that spoke for them.

[Verjigorm]

Grayghost, on 08 April 2010 - 03:20 AM, said:

Garak had it right. I wasn't talking about all civies...in this case, merely the ones that spoke for them.

Yep, the discusssion was about the nobles and their behaviour. It was more of a "Why did SE write them this way" as a "Why did they act that way" discussion. My theroy is that SE has a certain agenda. I Can't go into too much detail, but in later books we are also going to see different nobles, who overact their stupidity, so I was wondering, if there is a pattern and a reason for SE to write especially nobles this way.

[Garak]

Because nobles are stupid is a trope that SE enjoys using? I mean, he could write the peasants are morons but that won't affect much of anything and the nobles being intelligent and rational and non-evil is .... well, dull. Thus, nobles are stupid asshats. Plus, he might be trying to show that people with power are reluctant to give it up or have it disrupted. Also those nobles were born into those positions so they may be a tad out of touch with how the real world works - since they are accustomed to having their every whim obeyed.

[worry]

It's definitely a trope he loves, but it's one that reflects reality particularly well. I'm sure several of these nobles had Super Sweet 16s.

[Hood's Legacy]

worrywort, on 08 April 2010 - 07:56 PM, said:

It's definitely a trope he loves, but it's one that reflects reality particularly well. I'm sure several of these nobles had Super Sweet 16s.

Spoiler

Tehol Beddict.... Power made manifest.... He's anathema to what one would call supression of the masses and overpowering greed.
We are already seeing that the Letherii nation was running on a concept of 'debts' and opportunistic greed, the nobles kept getting richer. Whilst, the poorer ended being in more debts. Tehol came into power through ASo(U/F)A or should i say ahem 'incidents'... to destabilize that structure. Haven't read book 9 yet, so don't know where that's going?
The culling of nobles in the Malzan empire... to what effect..? The nobles are a breed that simply won't die.. I guess SE is trying to state that regardless of what you do, there will always be someone who is cunning and let's his/her greed overpower them. Hence. the so called 'nobles' (somewhere the true meaning is lost, but Ganoes ponders it in book1) will always be there as long as a human empire exists.

[worry]

I believe the culling of nobles by the Malazan Empire, as it conquers new lands, has to do with satisfying a certain bloodlust of the local majority population. It's a cynical move by the Empire to foster a feeling of camaraderie with non-nobles, and thereby hopefully limit the amount of resistance to establishing Malazan-style order in new lands. I'm not sure SE himself is a proponent of this method so much as he thought it was a pretty clever and plausible strategic reality to help explain lasting Malazan success. I don't think SE believes in a single "human nature," but there are certainly those who let personal ambitions dominate and it's not a coincidence that in corruptible societies they end up with some power. and often enough with even "good" powerful people, their offspring reap the benefits with none of the toil, and attitudes are entrenched through the generations. In other words, I think it's a trope SE adopts because it's a matter of fact, not simply because it serves an agenda (though it's valuable in that regard too).

[Hood's Legacy]

worrywort, on 16 April 2010 - 07:13 PM, said:

I believe the culling of nobles by the Malazan Empire, as it conquers new lands, has to do with satisfying a certain bloodlust of the local majority population. It's a cynical move by the Empire to foster a feeling of camaraderie with non-nobles, and thereby hopefully limit the amount of resistance to establishing Malazan-style order in new lands. I'm not sure SE himself is a proponent of this method so much as he thought it was a pretty clever and plausible strategic reality to help explain lasting Malazan success. I don't think SE believes in a single "human nature," but there are certainly those who let personal ambitions dominate and it's not a coincidence that in corruptible societies they end up with some power. and often enough with even "good" powerful people, their offspring reap the benefits with none of the toil, and attitudes are entrenched through the generations. In other words, I think it's a trope SE adopts because it's a matter of fact, not simply because it serves an agenda (though it's valuable in that regard too).

SE could consider this.. Re-distribution of wealth among the masses without culling the nobles. This way any entrenched hatred of the empire is quelled. If the nobles are true businessmen, they can win their money back. Given that in an effective and fast conquering of people, democracy fails. But, over a period of time, this seething enemity towards the empire manifests itself in various forms. Again, I go off ranting stating that 'democracy' is the one true form of goverment.. aarghhh!!!
Goverments and their systems rise and fall. Nonetheless, culling of the nobles seems like an effective way of gaining the masses' support. One thing that every despot/tyrant/emperor fails to realise is that at one point of time providence gives up on them. Greed in any form can only be manipulated to a certain extent.. The conqueror/ruler needs to get a MBA (or at least some people with MBA .. ) to truly plan ahead and win the peeps support.I cannot delve into specifics here as they could be spoilers... let's say it has something to do with Bult's people and Lasseen's treatment of them..
We aren't considering another facet of humanity here.. unquenchable greed.. for consumption. We just eat, re-produce and die.That has been the very nature of every sentient being till date..(at least the ones with movable limbs). I am not suggesting anything extreme as the crippled god's intentions. Merely, that the masses need to be educated; rather than being manipulated.

This post has been edited by Hood's Legacy: 19 April 2010 - 07:15 AM