[Abyss]

The Fall was painful to read, in a good way. From about halfway through the Chain storyline it becomes fairly clear that Coltaine isn't going to live through the book, but the way it goes down is just starggering. I can echo Iconik that Nil, nether, Duiker and Squint's reactions/perspective made it especially hard

Vesper, on 09 February 2010 - 06:21 AM, said:

... Kalam had plot armour!

The funny part of that is that Kalam did need Minala and then Fid and co to bail him out, but Topper doesn't know that and still figures he can handle it...to say nothing of the Malaz Island Rat Dog Death From Above.

- Abyss, ...notes it's not plot armour when he really is the best!

[Gothos]

It's the only scene in the series that made me sob like a little girl. But maybe that's cos by MoI I got used to the continuous attempts at soul crushing the series represents.

[Garak]

I pretty much knew Coltain was dead meat (having read TtH first) and I knew something tragic was going to happen. That still didn't stop me from crying. Sure, it's one thing to know Coltain is going to die but when you read the passage you have to be some sort of soulless creature not to be moved by it.

[Verjigorm]

Hm, maybe I'm a soulless creature (never rule that out^^) but I guess the amount of tragedy widely depends on how much you can relate to a person/situation. For me, Coltaine was a very boring character belonging to the most boring storyline (for me), the Chain of Dogs.

Storyline wise, I never had the feeling that the CoD was really in danger of not getting to Aren. So, as I'm really not a "it's not the destination, it's the journey"-type, I always assumed that they will get there and that there will be losses. I don't know why, but as soon as Duiker arrived at the camp, I knew that the only thing happening in his arch will be the journey south. No mysteries, no secrets revealed, not much potential for the bigger picture. The other story archs had a few twists and turns and characters I could relate to.

Character wise, CoD had Superman -without the threat of kryptonite- going south.
And on top of that...Superman knew that he was superior and never wrong and so he acted. Nobles? Don't talk to them. War councils? Don't need them, just be present silently, cause the others seem to need it. To make him believeable, SE had to make all other characters around Coltaine unbelieveable. The nobles had to act more and more ridiculous, so everybody had to agree that they are nuts. If you read it carefully. Coltaine started this by not talking to them in the first place. The nobles probably weren't that bad, but the character of Coltaine required SE to make them so uber-stupid to justify Coltaine's actions.
Most of his advisors are Wickan, bloodsworne tribal loyalists...of course nobody of them would dare to critizies him.
In the end, there is Duiker. He should be a clever historian, but SE makes him also a soldier, so he can justify a historian, who always says yes to everything Coltaine does.

This is, how I felt through every scene with Coltaine. I never understood, why SE showed us Superman with a groupie fan-club untill I realized that he wanted to present him as a martyr/tragic death. And -obviously- that worked out quite well, cause many readers agree on the tragedy. But I couldn't relate to him, cause he seemed too flat and too constructed for me, character wise.
But I put "Try to get the love for Coltaine" on my "To look out for on my re-read" list.

Now I'm going to look for my soul. Maybe Iskaral Prust took it into the shadows with him. You'll never know with this guy.

[Grayghost]

Verjigorm,

It is too bad you feel this way, but understandable, if as you say, you have nothing to relate it to. But, on the other hand, for me, the Chain of Dogs was less about Coltaine and more about everyone else. Having served, you do sometimes run into commanders who rarely solicit outside advice, so for me it was more about how does one respond to that absolute loss of control, or in other words "Ours is not to reason why" mentality. When your input is neither solicited nor wanted, you merely do the best you can do under the circumstances, or as in the case of the commander of the engineers, dont show up for command meetings so that you are not really going against orders...hell, can't complain if you never got them. I guess this is just my way of saying that is was the little heroics that catch your breath, that all of the sacrifices up to the fall were in vain. I cried for the little people, the soldier on the line, the engineers...and don't think that civilians can not be "uber stupid"...they can...believe me, they can.

[worry]

I don't understand the need to relate to a character in order to feel for them. Seems a bit narcissistic.

[Verjigorm]

Grayghost, on 01 April 2010 - 06:18 AM, said:

...and don't think that civilians can not be "uber stupid"...they can...believe me, they can.

Yes, I agree to that. But in the context of the story, I felt that he used it as a stylistic device to support Coltaine's character and his decisions. The way the nobles "go nuts" seems forced to me by the writing process. It doesn't feel organic to the story.
I'm maybe biased, cause I have a bit of a theory about SE. He often tends to create characters from nobility, who act rather stupid. I always have the feeling that he has an agenda with this and tries to show that ruling elites tend to stupidity and corruptness. As I can agree with the latter, I don't think that he is right about the first one.

worrywort, on 01 April 2010 - 07:45 AM, said:

I don't understand the need to relate to a character in order to feel for them. Seems a bit narcissistic.

For me, the degree of compassion towards a character is strongly related to to how much I can relate to him. Take the famous roadrunner/coyote scenes for example. A lot of really terrible things happen to the poor coyote, but do we really grief for him? So, you could say he isn't meant for grieving, but Coltaine is. So, same for Pormqual I guess. Did we grieve for him in the same way as for Coltaine? In real life, do we grieve for the people, who die in Haiti or Iraq in the same way, we grieve for a lost relative?
If you can honestly say for you that it is always the same amount of grief, you have my greatest sympathy, but I experienced in my life that grief is strongly related to how much I cared for someone. I can acknowledge the fact that it's sad, if something bad happens to someone, but my personal feeling of grief is affected by the amount of relation to the person/character.
As the whole topic here is "part of me died inside at the end" my point was that this amount of grief wasn't the case for me.

[Garak]

Quote

A lot of really terrible things happen to the poor coyote, but do we really grief for him?

Leaving aside the fact that he couldn't die (it being a cartoon) - yes I felt sorry for him. Hell, I wanted him to catch the damn bird.

Quote

same for Pormqual I guess

He was an incompetent and arrogant moron. Does that make what happened to him sad? Yes. Do I weep for him? No. Why? I wanted to gut the bastard myself for being such an idiot.

Quote

In real life, do we grieve for the people, who die in Haiti or Iraq in the same way, we grieve for a lost relative?

Leaving aside the fact that I know a relative better than a bunch of random people who I never met in real life. Do I feel sad for them? Sure, up to a point. Do I grieve for a relative more? Sure, I knew that person.

But look at it this way, one person is a tragedy, a million is a statistic. You can imagine one person suffering/dying/whatever but picturing a million doing the same is a bit hard, if not impossible. It's how the germans got away with killing a lot of jews (at least in the beginning), because no one could imagine a million dead jews. In the end they killed about 6 million jews (which everyone now is horrified about and my how horrid the Holocaust was - mind you I'm not saying it wasn't) but around 27 million russians also died but you don't hear anyone bringing that bit up.

Coltain's death was tragic because he died in front of the gates, because the men with him died so pointlessly because Pormqual wouldn't sally worth like the dick he was, because you saw the suffering of those on the walls (Nil and Neather were going nuts from grief), because of the simple cruelty of Korbolo Dom and his army (did they really need to crucify Coltain and then throw bits of his soldiers at him?). That's why it was tragic.

[Gothos]

Also, Squint.

[Grayghost]

[quote name='Verjigorm' date='01 April 2010 - 04:13 AM' timestamp='1270124020' post='745823']
[quote name='Grayghost' date='01 April 2010 - 08:18 AM' timestamp='1270102695' post='745727']
...and don't think that civilians can not be "uber stupid"...they can...believe me, they can.
[/quote]

[quote name='Verjigorm']
Yes, I agree to that. But in the context of the story, I felt that he used it as a stylistic device to support Coltaine's character and his decisions. The way the nobles "go nuts" seems forced to me by the writing process. It doesn't feel organic to the story.
I'm maybe biased, cause I have a bit of a theory about SE. He often tends to create characters from nobility, who act rather stupid. I always have the feeling that he has an agenda with this and tries to show that ruling elites tend to stupidity and corruptness. As I can agree with the latter, I don't think that he is right about the first one.
[/quote]

I see what you are saying...to a point, but not all of Erickson's nobles are sadistic, cowardly, selfish bastards. I guess I relate to what Coltaine dealt with because I had to deal with something similar on a much smaller scale, and with a lot less on the line, and yet couldn't get 50 odd civie's to pull their heads out of their collective ass's and ditch their "The Government owes me" attitude to get anything effective done...and if you don't think I didn't want to leave them to their idiotic fates...well....but I didn't.

This post has been edited by Grayghost: 02 April 2010 - 03:23 AM

[Hood's Legacy]

[quote name='Grayghost' date='02 April 2010 - 08:50 AM' timestamp='1270178444' post='746058']
[quote name='Verjigorm' date='01 April 2010 - 04:13 AM' timestamp='1270124020' post='745823']
[quote name='Grayghost' date='01 April 2010 - 08:18 AM' timestamp='1270102695' post='745727']
...and don't think that civilians can not be "uber stupid"...they can...believe me, they can.
[/quote]

[quote name='Verjigorm']
Yes, I agree to that. But in the context of the story, I felt that he used it as a stylistic device to support Coltaine's character and his decisions. The way the nobles "go nuts" seems forced to me by the writing process. It doesn't feel organic to the story.
I'm maybe biased, cause I have a bit of a theory about SE. He often tends to create characters from nobility, who act rather stupid. I always have the feeling that he has an agenda with this and tries to show that ruling elites tend to stupidity and corruptness. As I can agree with the latter, I don't think that he is right about the first one.
[/quote]

I see what you are saying...to a point, but not all of Erickson's nobles are sadistic, cowardly, selfish bastards. I guess I relate to what Coltaine dealt with because I had to deal with something similar on a much smaller scale, and with a lot less on the line, and yet couldn't get 50 odd civie's to pull their heads out of their collective ass's and ditch their "The Government owes me" attitude to get anything effective done...and if you don't think I didn't want to leave them to their idiotic fates...well....but I didn't.
[/quote]

Ganoes Paran, anyone..? Adjunct Tavore Paran (We still aren't sure why Tavore acted as a cold-hearted b@#@$ in DG), but comes out as 'cold steel' in the rest of the series. The nobles aren't all bad. It's just that they have been used to too much squabbling over the next shipment of silks that they do not realise the fragile and humane side of life.. The soldier who has seen his companions die in the heat of battle knows what it takes saving a life. He does not show it, as there is a part of him that wants to detach everyone from him to avoid any pangs of losses. He does not distinguish between a high born noble or a lowly peasant, a life's a life to him. Coltaine does not indeed speak much, but Bult does the speaking. Why??, because Bult is Coltaine's uncle and knows him well. Colatine himself makes passing reference of this to Duiker. An effective commander does not need to impress his troops, he just needs to win their loyalty. Regardless of several references to the Wickans being barbaric, the seventh consider Coltaine as their 'fist'. No mean acheivement, considering that he had very less time to prep them for the march to Aren. I guess he knew what was coming, since Pormqual did not send in re-inforcements. But, the rest of the CoD had hope... He did not want to break their hope by voicing his thoughts. I guess this caused the rest of the army to think Coltaine had a shaved knuckle. I guess it gave them hope/sembelance of control..., at least for a while. I guess I spoke about this earlier, but Coltaine resembles 'Spartacus' in a few ways. One cannot even fathom how Coltaine must have felt, trying to fight against all insurmountable odds. He did make it till the end, only to be betrayed by Aren's commanding officer. One can only shed invisible tears for such a leader. (Shame barring them to flow from these eyes).

[Hood's Legacy]

Grayghost, on 01 April 2010 - 06:18 AM, said:

Verjigorm,

It is too bad you feel this way, but understandable, if as you say, you have nothing to relate it to. But, on the other hand, for me, the Chain of Dogs was less about Coltaine and more about everyone else. Having served, you do sometimes run into commanders who rarely solicit outside advice, so for me it was more about how does one respond to that absolute loss of control, or in other words "Ours is not to reason why" mentality. When your input is neither solicited nor wanted, you merely do the best you can do under the circumstances, or as in the case of the commander of the engineers, dont show up for command meetings so that you are not really going against orders...hell, can't complain if you never got them. I guess this is just my way of saying that is was the little heroics that catch your breath, that all of the sacrifices up to the fall were in vain. I cried for the little people, the soldier on the line, the engineers...and don't think that civilians can not be "uber stupid"...they can...believe me, they can.

Dude, the civvies aren't stupid, most of them were peasants who were trying to escape with their lives. In their fear, they act as unherded cattle being hunted by wolves. The Wickans and the seventh acted like the 'guard dogs' herding the cattle to safety. Only the wolves outnumbered the dogs, in woefully large numbers...

[Garak]

I think in this case when he was talking about dumb civvies, he meant the nobles. And let's face, they were with their heads stuck so far up their collective asses that they couldn't fathom the idea that war (and Korbolo DOOM ) doesn't care about their pretty little rules and etiquette and merchant power. They thought that all the rules they lived by in peace should also aply during war. Well, guess what, war doesn't care about fancy rules (please remember this is a fantasy setting, thus the rules of war are those of medieval times, thus the rules of war were pretty much anything goes).

[Hood's Legacy]

Garak, on 05 April 2010 - 12:05 PM, said:

I think in this case when he was talking about dumb civvies, he meant the nobles. And let's face, they were with their heads stuck so far up their collective asses that they couldn't fathom the idea that war (and Korbolo DOOM ) doesn't care about their pretty little rules and etiquette and merchant power. They thought that all the rules they lived by in peace should also aply during war. Well, guess what, war doesn't care about fancy rules (please remember this is a fantasy setting, thus the rules of war are those of medieval times, thus the rules of war were pretty much anything goes).

More like cold-blooded brutality. Again this depends on who conquered seven cities? If it was Kellanved, then I am still wondering why the 7 city armies hate the Malazan so!! I mean, look at all the other tribes, the emperor united. They are all loyal to him after being conquered. But, again under Lassen every tom,dick and harry just wants to be rid of her and move away from the Malazan banner. This is typical of Lasseen, she just uses and uses until the peeps get pissed off, can we really blame the holy army, a people subjugated under an iron fist..., nah! Folks, please do get back in case I am missing something here.

[Gothos]

You're missing the fact that Kellanved was the original iron fist ruler . Perhaps more ruthless than Laseen ever was.
In Seven Cities, rebels are just people who want their old position of power back. THEY want to be the iron fist, and their rule was, by and wide, a lot worse than the malazans. It's propaganda and playing on bloodlust.

[flea]

I just finished a re-read of DG, and I concur with the majority of the sentiment regarding the CoD--a great story.

There is, however, one HUGE flaw: Coltaine's end is meaningless because he is resurrected. "Don't worry Squint, because you have released his soul to be reborn."

[Salt-Man Z]

But the ultimate horror of what Dom's troops were doing to Coltaine was that they were keeping the crows from taking his soul. Squint was forced to kill Coltaine so that his soul could survive.

If you're arguing that it could have been more tragic, well sure. But Coltaine's death (and subsequently rebirth in the epilogue) was like a sob of relief after the torturous Chain of Dogs. A spark of hope at the end of tragedy.

[flea]

Salt-Man Z, on 06 April 2010 - 04:54 PM, said:

If you're arguing that it could have been more tragic, well sure. But Coltaine's death (and subsequently rebirth in the epilogue) was like a sob of relief after the torturous Chain of Dogs. A spark of hope at the end of tragedy.

Which means that Squint and Blistig do not have to be so devastated.

Ray of hope at the end, to be sure--depends on one's pov whether one thinks this was a good plot twist. I would argue that it reduces the overall horror of the event. Since Coltaine is not returning in this series, I would vote for total destruction, unless ICE has plans for him. Not a big deal since I think DG is a spectacular book.

[Sinisdar Toste]

flea, on 06 April 2010 - 05:58 PM, said:

Salt-Man Z, on 06 April 2010 - 04:54 PM, said:

If you're arguing that it could have been more tragic, well sure. But Coltaine's death (and subsequently rebirth in the epilogue) was like a sob of relief after the torturous Chain of Dogs. A spark of hope at the end of tragedy.

Which means that Squint and Blistig do not have to be so devastated.

Ray of hope at the end, to be sure--depends on one's pov whether one thinks this was a good plot twist. I would argue that it reduces the overall horror of the event. Since Coltaine is not returning in this series, I would vote for total destruction, unless ICE has plans for him. Not a big deal since I think DG is a spectacular book.

well its consistently pointed out by nil, nether and pretty much everyone who interacts with the wickans that non-wickans do not understand how powerful souls are treated in wickan mythology. everyone keeps talking about nil and nether being too young for this or that, and nil and nether just shake their heads. blistig and squint probably had no idea that coltaine would be reborn. for the most part, nobody seems to know that. why would QB give coltaine that soul-catcher if he knew the man would just reiterate? cuz he didn't know. squint thinks he killed coltaine dead. everyone thinks he did. they may connect the crows to some form of an afterlife, but they're certainly not knowledgeable enough to realize that the wickan afterlife is another life altogether

[flea]

True, none of this is a surprise to the reader, and it is especially horrifying when the rebels try to prevent the crows from gathering the souls. My point is not that there is some kind of deux ex machina, My point is that the plot actually diminishes the impact on the reader. As I have said, it is not very important.