[Silencer]

Well, if there is one thing being on a boat with limited net connectivity gives you, it is spare time. Reading, writing, thinking...and more reading.

Dust of Dreams was top of my list, as it's the only MBotF book I'd yet to read more than once. So, I found several little bits and pieces I thought I'd share around (as I still can't spend the time trawling the forum for topics that cover this stuff, stupid mobile broadband...):

Yedan Derryg, page 604 hardback:
"'Without ground, there can be no sky.' So spoke the Azathanai in the dust of their quarries." OK. I'm assuming that Azath is a degradation of Azathanai, or that it means the Elder that Nimander encountered in Toll, which would explain the ability to speak. But apparently the Shake have a lot of knowledge that no-one else has yet expressed.

And something I know has been brought up before, Quick Ben, musing in Bottle's presence, page 376 hardback:
"'They've sniffed me out Bottle. They've edged closer than anybody's ever done, and that includes Whiskeyjack.' He paused, frowning. 'Maybe Kallor. Maybe Rake - yes, Rake probably saw clear enough - was it any wonder I avoided him? Well, Gothos, sure, but-'"

Well well well. Our dear High Mage has met Gothos. And he avoids Rake as much as he can, why? Simply because he can soul-shift? That's hardly a reason, especially as Whiskeyjack just up and told Rake about that. And QB says that Whiskeyjack didn't know as much as Tavore now does, nor as much as Rake or Gothos. It is possible, given he is later referred to as talking to himself in 'a host of distinct voices', that he is truly a human D'ivers. Also explains Hedge's talk of Soletaken smells. But this to me doesn't cut it. Ruthan Gudd talks of Quick Ben revealing himself, and Fiddler says that Quick will finally need to fully show himself - 'We will need all of them' he says. All of who? Quick's souls? That surely would be a sight to see, twelve high mages in unison. But Ruthan Gudd was once in an Azath, once talked and walked with Draconus, and indeed says that if Draconus seeks him out, 'One of us will die'.
So why would they all - Rake, Gothos, Ruthan, so forth, make such a hoo-ha over soul-shifting? No. Why would Draconus seek out only QB to talk to?

There are a myriad of possibilities - not least among them that QB is Grizzen Farl (who is, indeed, dead, hence why the Errant cannot sense him...but his soul is still alive in QB), and that 'all of them' means all the Elder Gods, or indeed all the gods together. Just a wild speculation. But hey, 'twould be interesting. And explain a lot. Like, 'Only I can stand in his way.' QB. Vs Draconus. Fucking hell.
This would also explain, to my mind, his performance to the Nah'Ruk - he uses acorn bombs, why? He is saving power. Magic he's invested in these acorns long ago does not weaken him now. Raw magic does. He finds himself too committed? This battle will drain him too much? *POOF* he commits 'suicide' just like he did when he was Kribalah Rule in Blackdog. Saving strength. For Draconus. And Quick is also called the Magus of Dark by Fid's reading. Very interesting coincidences.

Now, the other thing I've noticed is the emphasis in this book on the fact that Eleint cannot work together, their chaotic blood drives them apart. Clearly, Rake and Silanah are exceptions to this rule, however:
The Tiste Andii Night Hunters.
Korlat and Orfantal in particular.
There were 5 soletaken Andii who dwelt within Moon's Spawn. They worked together, they worked under Rake, and in close proximity to Silanah. GotMism? Retcon? Just as recently as TTH have Korlat and Orfantal been shown to be working together. Hell, even Rake and Silchas were driven apart by the blood. The only exceptions mentioned are Telorast and Curdle, and that's implied to be true due to them being 'twins' of a sort.

Anyway, that's it for now. But damn this re-read was fun. ^^

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

A thought on the Gothos part:

It is possible that during the days of the Empire when QB was high up in the cult of shadow that he had some meetings with Kellanved or Dancer. ST shows familiarity with him when QB meets him in GotM "Delat you shape-shifting bastard!" scene. It is possible that while looking for a safe place to conduct meetings Quick had to meet them in their old stomping grounds the Deadhouse. Who wanders the Azath and has been seen in the Deadhouse? Gothos. QB could have met him there.

Now, here is the crazy theory part of what your post inspired in me. Quick is a Jaghut? Or was? Or one of his souls is? I know that there is evidence that one of his souls belonged to a half-breed Jhag warrior, but I mean more than that. Here is my crazy evidence to support:
1. Soul-shifting, he does this on stage as early as GotM, and later in that same book we see that Raest can do the same, as it is apparently a trait of uber-powerful Jaghut.
2. The efforts Quick goes through to lay low. Obviously they are logical for any mage that wants to avoid being focused on by assassins and powerful creatures, but perhaps the reason Quick goes so much further in his efforts is that he is used to it as being a Jaghut that had to spend millennia hiding for T'lan Imass? Also he's living in an empire that commands an army of them, so poking his head up would be a bad idea.
3. Do his acorns and stones just make anyone else think about Jaghut?
4. The quote Silencer gives above "well, Gothos, sure..." Wouldn't another Jaghut be able to sniff him out much easier than anyone else?
5. Speaking of Gothos, the scene where he tricks Mael and Kilmandaros into letting him keep the Finnest of Scabandari and his reaction about how satisfying it was to trick the Elder Gods "with all their hoary ancient power" just reminded me of something Quick would do.
6. His general familiarity with Hood. e.g. going to his gate to make a bargain, and when Hood owes him one.
7. The throw-away line from Silchas to Rud Ellale about draconic soletaken that have conquered their eleint blood. There was once a Jaghut soletaken that did it.

Now, there are obviously any number of flaws with this theory, many of which I was fully aware of while writing it. So if anyone wants to rip it, they aren't gonna get an argument from me. But seriously...how frickin cool would that be?

[Ain't_It_Just_]

The bit about the Azathanai I didn't understand until I read this topic. Thanks, Silencer.

It's interesting that they mention more than one. But given what I read in TtH, it seems the Elder was the sole builder of the Azath. Maybe the rest of them died.

[Hetan]

Ain, on 04 February 2010 - 06:12 AM, said:

The bit about the Azathanai I didn't understand until I read this topic. Thanks, Silencer.

It's interesting that they mention more than one. But given what I read in TtH, it seems the Elder was the sole builder of the Azath. Maybe the rest of them died.

My understanding of that passage in TtH was that Gothos kept the Azathenai guy imprisoned because Gothos took the houses away - which is why Nimander told him to stay inside, so that he could leave.

[Hoods Balls]

I remembered I reacted when I read TtH and the 'They've sniffed me out Bottle"-scene. After reading the latest book where it's revealed that Quick is the Magus of Dark (whatever that means) I always thought that would explain why Rake sniffed him out. The Knight of Darkness must be able to sniff out his Magus right? However it doesn't explain why he's 100% sure that Gothos knew him truly. The bit about the Azathanai I completely missed and the link between tha Azath and Gothos is strong. Very interesting theory indeed. I thnk we haven't seen the last of QB yet.

[Aptorian]

Maybe Quick turned into an army of Kchain Nahruk, and he was trying to nurse the bonehunters back to health when a crazy army of KCCM Ve'gath attacked him and killed him.

You heard it here first.

[Ulrik]

But why Kallor? He doesnt look like arcane mystic type, rather arcane mystice type slicer.

Who was first d´ivers? (if Dejim Nebrahl, my theory falls) QB must be very old to be known by Draconus. And whats better to absorbe twelve souls than stuck each into one body and then shift into one single form?

For Eleint - in ThH Endest (if not Spinnock) muses about presence of Silanah. Rake in some period broke his alliance with Dragons and went to war (but probably didnt kill anyone with Dragnipur). And Endest is surprised that Silanah came loyally back to him.

(sorry for my written english, is worse every day :/ )

[Aptorian]

The quotes don't claim that Draconus knows Quick. It merely suggests that Quick Ben is such an important/powerful player that Draconus will sense him or be drawn to him.

[Ulrik]

IMO is in Lether so many really powerful entities that there must be a reason why QB. But of course, it can be read like it, IMO both those possibilities lies here.

[Aptorian]

I would strongly dislike it if it was revealed that Quick Ben was a character of a much higher magnitude of power than what we have been led to suspect.

Quick as a mortal mage who is powered by the 12 souls of various scholars and mages is a mysterious and cool character, but to find out that he was really an elder god or Jaghut of tyrant level potential would be stupid.

That would mean that in all the time he's been with the Bridgeburners, all the times they've fought and people have died in droves, Quick Ben could have saved their asses. I don't care if he has to lay low, it would just seem like a betrayal of the army that was his home.

It's like when it is suddenly revealed in BH that Quick can actually heal people. That didn't make any sense either. Are you going to tell me that in the 15 years or so he's fought with the BBs and the BH that nobody in his squad has been wounded critically? Or if they were, he just chose to not save them because he didn't want people to know he was a Elder God with Denul warrens up the ass.

[champ]

quite scary how similar thoughts we had Silencer, I've jst finished rereading DoD and the only speculation that differed from your views was that i reckon QB could be linked with Blind Gallan but only because i like wild speculation
pure speculation... blind gallan helped save the shake, gives him access to shadow, magus of dark... this way he would know draconus... both crazy...

also noticed the

Quote

'We will need all of them'

and thought could only mean he's able to separate the souls within his body and when hes talking about draconus etc, hes referring to himself as "we"

This post has been edited by champooon: 04 February 2010 - 12:51 PM

[Hoods Balls]

How does anyone get to be a player in the Deck? QB is now Magus of Dark but that doesn't mean he's been it all his life. Im thinking how Trull got to be Champion of Shadow. He didn't really apply for the postition like Gethol did. So maybe QB being (now) magus of dark hasn't anything to do with the Bottle-Spot me scene.

I agree with Aptorian in this case. QB is one of the coolset characters and it would be a shame if he was a mere God.

[Ulrik]

Aptorian, on 04 February 2010 - 09:03 AM, said:

I would strongly dislike it if it was revealed that Quick Ben was a character of a much higher magnitude of power than what we have been led to suspect.

Quick as a mortal mage who is powered by the 12 souls of various scholars and mages is a mysterious and cool character, but to find out that he was really an elder god or Jaghut of tyrant level potential would be stupid.

I agree. So far was Quick "mysterious powerful mortal" who can play games with gods and ascendetns. Thas so "sexy" bout him, he perfectly fits into "Dont mess with mortals". Revealing that he himself is long forgotten god would suck. I dont mind his uber 12 souls, but thats something other.

[SiriusL]

Ulrik, on 04 February 2010 - 12:41 PM, said:

I agree. So far was Quick "mysterious powerful mortal" who can play games with gods and ascendetns. Thas so "sexy" bout him, he perfectly fits into "Dont mess with mortals". Revealing that he himself is long forgotten god would suck. I dont mind his uber 12 souls, but thats something other.

This would also diminish the BH (I think?) flashback where Lil' Quick Ben is reeking havoc on his sister. He's been a mage since he was a kid, and his personality hasn't changed much. If he collected the soul of an Elder God, I'd expect his attitude to be a little different. Maybe not, though. Some of the Elders are pretty cool.

[Imperial Historian]

Quote

t's like when it is suddenly revealed in BH that Quick can actually heal people. That didn't make any sense either. Are you going to tell me that in the 15 years or so he's fought with the BBs and the BH that nobody in his squad has been wounded critically? Or if they were, he just chose to not save them because he didn't want people to know he was a Elder God with Denul warrens up the ass.

Why would quick need to heal people? he hung around with mallet a user of high denul, if anyone needed healing he was obviously going to take a pass and let mallet handle it. I don't recall any occasions when there is a situation that requires healing and mallet is absent and QB doesn't step up.

[HoosierDaddy]

As for Draconus and Quick, I draw parallels with that to K'rul and Kruppe in GotM and MoI. Who better to get in contact with than the closest genius around?

[Aptorian]

No, there hasn't been an occasion that we've seen or heard of in the books we've read. But we're talking at least 15 years of on and off combat, the battles in the mott woods and at black dog were supposedly especially bad. You don't think there's been a situation where whole companies were fucked up beyond repair and Mallet wasn't there or him and other healers weren't enough?

What about the Andii vs Assassins battle in GotM. Kalam gets messed up and Quick helps him back to the BBs lair, and the team is waiting for Mallet to arrive so that he can help Kalam and stop the bleeding. Why didn't Quick help him? Kalam is supposedly one of his oldest friends.

Of course, you could that a GotM'ism. That Quick doesn't use Denul. But it just sounds ridiculous that after 15 years, Kalam has never heard of or seen QB use Denul.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

There could've been times when Kalam or someone was so hurt they passed out and Quick healed them, then they ended up in the normal recovery tent, saw Mallet and just assumed it was him. They wouldn't know about Quick's Denul powers then.


About Quick having some uber-powerful soul in him:
I agree it would be totally at odds with what we've seen in previous books for him to be so powerful. But apparently he is that powerful, or all the stuff in DoD makes no sense really. I would like to think that the explanation is he was able to keep down the Elder God/Jaghut/whatever soul/essence/presence for a long time, and then after his battle with Icarium when he was stretched he lost control of it to a degree/it started to re-awaken within him. Because even if he has no uber-soul in him, apparently he is strong enough to even contemplate fighting Draconus. Which means that he himself has Ascendant level power and hasn't been using it for his entire career as a Bridgeburner. And wouldn't that be just as bad?

[SiriusL]

WhiskeyJackDaniels, on 04 February 2010 - 10:34 PM, said:

About Quick having some uber-powerful soul in him:
I agree it would be totally at odds with what we've seen in previous books for him to be so powerful. But apparently he is that powerful, or all the stuff in DoD makes no sense really. I would like to think that the explanation is he was able to keep down the Elder God/Jaghut/whatever soul/essence/presence for a long time, and then after his battle with Icarium when he was stretched he lost control of it to a degree/it started to re-awaken within him. Because even if he has no uber-soul in him, apparently he is strong enough to even contemplate fighting Draconus. Which means that he himself has Ascendant level power and hasn't been using it for his entire career as a Bridgeburner. And wouldn't that be just as bad?

I rather like the idea that Quick just grew in power after he was stretched. He's always been underestimated (remember in MoI he surprised a lot of people with his giant illusions), but now he's not only stronger but outed.

BTW, when Fiddler says, "We'll need all twelve," I just figured he meant all twelve warrens--not that six-at-a-time crap that QB threw at Bauchelain in MoI.



(Also BTW, WhiskeyJackDaniels--are you going to school at Syracuse? I got my MS at IST in 2003, FWIW.)

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Yea, I am. In CRS tho. Go orange, repeat of 03. lol