[Cougar]

First of all, not only God causes suffering, spending an afternoon with Brood is just as bad, second and on a more serious note who exactly are you to call another branch of Christianity: "Crazy extreme fundies in the States claiming to be Christian", as far as I'm concerned your branch of Christianity compared to the tradition in which I was raised (if I still thought it had any merit at all) is batshit crazy too.

I'll be clear, I'm not saying there is anything wrong with it, it's your choice, but just cos someone's interpretation of Christianity is different to yours, or indeed interpretation of the word of the Abrahamic god, doesn't mean it's any less valid. Remember South Park "Sorry everybody... Yes, 'the Mormons' was the correct answer"

[ConjurererOfSeasons]

I see the connection brought up here. It really depends on interpretation, and I for one am no christian.

First off, I agree completely with the fact that Christianity is currently a religion of self-pity (I do not mar the religion I am simply stating what I believe). In the modern world, Christianity is a religion of self-inhibition and scorn, similar to the Crippled One.

But lets look at what the religion really means, or at least what it meant before the church messed things up.

Yes, humans are deemed unclean, or even crippled in Christianity, but the premises of Christianity is that it can be healed. The crippled god does not offer this, he offers death and dissolution, which is the main difference. This for me is the deciding factor.

But from the modern viewpoint, I could believe that Erikson based the Crippled God off of Christianity, but I would rather believe that the Crippled God represents the human will, or, better yet, anti-will, the drive to destroy oneself.

Thats my view, the Crippled God is a kind of inhibitor. The one left behind, looking ahead at the others who are, as Kruppe might say, dancing and feasting in the party that is life. He sees the beauty that is, and how his flesh is the inversion of such beauty, and wishes to destroy it, to make it like him.

So, I believe the Crippled God is a representation of some part of the human psyche, the part that keeps us down, and makes sure we are never content.

This post has been edited by ConjurererOfSeasons: 16 April 2010 - 12:50 AM

[DarkFox]

I dont believe that christianity is a religion of self pity. It's central tennets are kindness, peace, and self reflection followed by self improvement. Most people might see it that way, that it is self pity, because self reflection usually implies looking at your short commings but that is far from self pitty.

Self inhibition Is something everyone practices every-day of their lives, merely because of a sense of right and wrong. And scorn, I'm not quite sure how you mean that so I'll address the 2 posibilities i can think of.

That the religion itself might offer or cause scorn for any reason is pretty unreasonable. While it is true in the Old Testaments that freedom of religion was opposed, christianity focuses on the teachings of the new testaments which teach tolerance toward your fellow man. Indeed Jesus teaches selfsacrifice

That christians themselves scorn those who they consider less than themselves, either by their choices or by the fact that they aren't christian. This possible argument is completely obselete in my opinion. Scorning others, being intolerant of the choices of others and rageing against their religious or moral veiws is not something preached by christianity. people will scorn others purely because it's in their personalities. it is true there are christians, or for that matter mouslims or Jews who would scorn other people for whatever reason and blame it on thier religion. but the truth is these are only the radicals of theses religions and there are actually very few of those.

I agree with with your musings on the crippled god though, very intersting and with lots of merit visable in everyday life.

sorry if i went overboard about the christianity thing, I've just heard a lot of people slamming religions with no clue what they are talking about. i needed to vent.

[ConjurererOfSeasons]

I wasn't bashing the religion's core at all, I'm just saying how I feel its turned as an institution. I don't have an isuue with self inhibition in a positive way, but I feel like the religion in its modern state( more so in the extreme denominations) limits a lot of possibly for creativity

[Ceda Cicero]

Mass, mass, mass spoilers for Toll the Hounds.

Do not read on if you have not completed.

Final warning, if you don't want Toll the Hounds completely and utterly wrecked, stop reading.

Spoiler

In TtH, I actually interpreted Itkovian, the Dying God, and Rake's gesture to Itkovian through his reunion with Mother Dark to all be facets of Christianity. What do I mean?

The Dying God and the Redeemer are, essentially, opposites in every way. The Dying God is similar to the Crippled God, but the Dying God emphasizes suffering as a means to death as opposed to suffering as a way of life. There have been and are sects of Christianity where suffering, self-loathing, and obsessive fixation on death and the sanctification that follows are more of a focus than grace and faith (as with the Dying God.) And there are and have been sects of Christianity where redemption is offered indiscriminately (as with Itkovian.) The key difference is in the followers and the expectations and interpretations they impose on the divine. I think that this difference is what Erikson sought to elucidate in TtH, particularly by exploring the relationship between Salind and first the Redeemer, then later the Dying God. And to a lesser degree, between Seerdomin with his old faith to the Pannion Seer, and his new (undesired) relationship with the Redeemer.

Enter Rake, who - with his sacrifice to move the Gate and recall Mother Dark's attention - schools Itkovian on the true meaning of salvation, and dismantles the Dying God/possessed Clip (okay, Mother Dark took out the Dying God by returning, but that wouldn't have been possible without Rake's sacrifice.) Rake's gesture essentially communicates the importance of choice in all of this - that salvation should not be a passive act on the part of the worshiped or the worshiper, it should be more of an intimate relationship, something deeply humanistic, no matter how powerful the players (Rake and Mother Dark being stirling examples of this.) Through Rake, Itkovian comes to understand the meaning of true redemption.

All in all, I think it's probably a safe bet that SE is not the sort of author to confine his insights on a religion - or all religions - to a single cult, god, or goddess. It's doing his work an injustice to try and find neat parallels between one religion in the MBOTF that we can point to as his sole commentary on Christianity. I would argue that you can draw parallels between any of the religious musings in the text and Christianity (or any number of other religions.) For example, off the top of my head, the connection between Elder Gods and blood sacrifice = Old Testament Yahweh much?

I digress.

This post has been edited by Ciceronian: 18 June 2010 - 06:12 PM

[ThinkingMalaz]

Wow that pretty much summed up my view on it...

I 've always connected the CG with a certain view of christianity... But it also reminded me something of a twisted form of budhism, after all one of the budhist tenets is 'Life is suffering'... I think SE has done a masterfull job of putting in religions with so many hints of real world ones whilst still feeling unique

[DarkFox]

hey, anyone wonder why The Crippled God was first compared to Christianity? not Buddhism, or even satanism? its because Christianity is actually the single most prejudiced and attacked faith in the world, thats something to think about before adding a comment.

[ThinkingMalaz]

DarkFox, on 09 February 2011 - 02:08 AM, said:

hey, anyone wonder why The Crippled God was first compared to Christianity? not Buddhism, or even satanism? its because Christianity is actually the single most prejudiced and attacked faith in the world, thats something to think about before adding a comment.

I'm sorry but that really is not true... It shows the typical christian persecution complex if you ask me. Christianity is NOT the most attacked faith in the world that's a myth, if any religion could claim that epitah it is Islam which is being bashed right left and centre throughout the western world. Personally I am not a fan of Islam (I am an atheist so that goes for all organised religions) but having studied said religion as a Master in university, I can tell you that if there is a religion which is unfairly attacked it is Islam. The propaganda machine spouting misconceptions about that religion or even full out lies is still going very strong, I can't say that the same thing is happening with christianity . I think the reason why christianity is mentioned first is that these books have come out in English and are spread very much throughout the western world where christianity is the predominant religion. Culturally that means most people in north america and europe will identify religion with christianity and therefore are much more likely to mention it in this context.

Also I actually DID mention Buddhism in my last post. Some elements of Buddhist theology and Christian Theology are similar. And it is exactly those elements you can find in the depiction of tCG. Note I said elements of the theology. I don't think christians on here should feel so attacked either. It's a scholarly question, not a judgment of the religion.

As for satanism... It's theology is not even close to those created for tCG

This post has been edited by ThinkingMalaz: 09 February 2011 - 12:35 PM

[Azathmaster]

I just want to add that Buddhism is actually a philosophy and not a religion as there is no belief in a divine being. Yes, I know that the Buddha (Siddharta Gautama) was seemingly worshipped, but he is not considered divine, he is just considered a very very very very wise man who was an example of the path to enlightenment and he was the first to write down that path.

[Vaddon Ra]

kingnothing, on 02 February 2010 - 12:48 PM, said:

I had this thought from out of the blue today and thought I might see if anyone else has mused on it as well.

It's in regard to the crippled god and how is whole deformed, hurtful and marred view of existence and what he does to both his unwitting servants and acolytes. His main goal, well at least in the first 5 books is to bring about pain and suffering, what he has been put through, and unleash it upon the world, and only the ones who follow shall be granted access to his power and so forth with the warrens and all. It's as if they shall inherit the earth, or Wu.

What I'm trying to get at is that the crippled god is similar to the aspect of the christian god in that suffering and pain and just generally being sorry and disgusted at yourself brings reward and salvation. I'm not that religious nor do I chastise or belittle people who have a strong faith. We all have a faith in something in the end but it seems like an interesting correlation between the two. maybe SE is trying to show the dangers of too much dependence on faith or blind faith, literal and metaphorically speaking

way out there theory - maybe it is the christian god that was brought down hahahahahaha

any thoughts on that?

Few things to note here.

despite the amount of war that goes on in the Old Testament, the Biblical God's aspect has always been love for his people and the world. It may appear not to be the case with how his 'will' has been represented but in all the actual law teachings from God in the bible (including Jesus) he keeps coming back to love and forgiveness despite the rotten things we do to one another. So despite the end of TCG when he remembers and is filled with love and embracing those in pain, ol Kaminsod has that aspect like God but twisted. Salvation in the bible is from understanding that a person isn't actually the perfect god-like thing the world tells us we can be and recognising that we need something else because science, sex, goods and foods etc aren't enough to give actual reason to life...
Just as a side note, I totally get why people would think that Christianity is about being disgusted in yourself and hating the sin in the world etc, and while those aspects of shame and desiring salvation can often manifest as self-hatred Christ clearly states (quoting from The old testament I.E. God) that the most important thing you do in life ,the things God cares about most are loving God and Loving others as you love yourself.
So it was never God's intention for people to hate themselves and each other. I see where the similarity pops up of course TCG is a great character and a real tragic and sympathetic one and one who eventually made me really touched as it's a demand to recognise those who are broken and in need and support them (like Karsa with Munug and grief that made me cry)
I just wanted to tell you all that despite the mess christians have made of christianity since it's inception and Jesus' Ascendancy (Knight of Life????) God really doesn't want people to look at themselves with loathing, quite the opposite. Forgiveness for the worst of people was always to bring them into being the best they could be. with God.

Oh and the bible uses Ascendancy for Jesus, I'm not just stealing SE's ascendents

[Vaddon Ra]

ThinkingMalaz, on 09 February 2011 - 12:34 PM, said:

DarkFox, on 09 February 2011 - 02:08 AM, said:

hey, anyone wonder why The Crippled God was first compared to Christianity? not Buddhism, or even satanism? its because Christianity is actually the single most prejudiced and attacked faith in the world, thats something to think about before adding a comment.

I'm sorry but that really is not true... It shows the typical christian persecution complex if you ask me. Christianity is NOT the most attacked faith in the world that's a myth, if any religion could claim that epitah it is Islam which is being bashed right left and centre throughout the western world. Personally I am not a fan of Islam (I am an atheist so that goes for all organised religions) but having studied said religion as a Master in university, I can tell you that if there is a religion which is unfairly attacked it is Islam. The propaganda machine spouting misconceptions about that religion or even full out lies is still going very strong, I can't say that the same thing is happening with christianity . I think the reason why christianity is mentioned first is that these books have come out in English and are spread very much throughout the western world where christianity is the predominant religion. Culturally that means most people in north america and europe will identify religion with christianity and therefore are much more likely to mention it in this context.

Also I actually DID mention Buddhism in my last post. Some elements of Buddhist theology and Christian Theology are similar. And it is exactly those elements you can find in the depiction of tCG. Note I said elements of the theology. I don't think christians on here should feel so attacked either. It's a scholarly question, not a judgment of the religion.

As for satanism... It's theology is not even close to those created for tCG

I'm inclined to agree. Right now Islam is universally prejudiced against because of fear mongering in various bad western newspapers. Every religion has fanatics and the big ones have all had a period in History where they've done really bad and misguided stuff and have been hated. You get Christians who are (for me, a christian) insane just as you have fanatics in Islam, Judaism et al. Christianity right now isn't attacked so much as running the risk of often becoming stagnant and irrelevant.... and for those of you who would say "of course, it's christianity" XD that's what I mean. There are places of real life living relevent christian practice, but the main threat to us isn't anger, it's indiference.

[Vaddon Ra]

That christians themselves scorn those who they consider less than themselves, either by their choices or by the fact that they aren't christian. This possible argument is completely obselete in my opinion. Scorning others, being intolerant of the choices of others and rageing against their religious or moral veiws is not something preached by christianity. people will scorn others purely because it's in their personalities. it is true there are christians, or for that matter mouslims or Jews who would scorn other people for whatever reason and blame it on thier religion. but the truth is these are only the radicals of theses religions and there are actually very few of those.



Not preached (in most churches) but often practiced sadly. You are right though, in no place in the New Testament does Christ or the following apostles preach/teach/show anything but forgiveness and grace to people, often for those who really don't believe they could ever deserve it. Self Pity often occurs in Churches and gives christ a negative image, but that's often due to the person themselves and not enough actual understanding, or perhaps belief, that God really does love you as he claims to.
I can sympathise with the misconception, I know how some people interpret their christian colleagues not partaking in things they would say are "sinful" as a stab at the people doing said things... I can totally see how that looks bad, the problem is actually in the delivery of the explanation. I would be more likely to try to say, "yeah sure I see it as a sin, but you don't believe in God do you? No! And I am in no way looking down upon you, this is what I believe and if I genuinely thought of you as "inferior" I wouldn't be hanging out with you and enjoying life.
Most people who see others as inferior are more likely to snub them really. And it doesn't take a belief in God for people and supposed "friends" to scorn and snub and insult...even if it's insulting as mates, can still hurt. Don't need a faith in God to do that.

[Vaddon Ra]

Tiste Simeon, on 03 February 2010 - 12:34 PM, said:

kingnothing, on 03 February 2010 - 03:55 AM, said:

Apologies if offendedd anyone with the concept. I'm not bagging God, I'm just saying there are some concepts in christianity that lead towards punishment as a form of a redemption or whatever.

And, um, how did this thread transition to WOT? Anyway thanks for the input. No matter what you believe in.

No worries man, I just don't like the idea that some people have that redemption is gained through punishment. That is nothing like the Christian teachings, and I would be interested to know where this concept came from.

Silly practices like self flaggelation and having to go to confession. confessing you did something wrong is actually healthy, especially to someone who you are accountable to and close to and respect, but to believe that the New Testament God demands you come crawling weekly to church only to emotionally beat yourself is stupid. You're saved in Christs sacrifice that took the sin of the world.... so rejoice, God loves you.

I know, sadly, that that's not the God, or Jesus that a lot of people have been introduced to... and that's a real shame.

[sting01]

Vaddon Ra, on 18 March 2013 - 06:39 PM, said:

Tiste Simeon, on 03 February 2010 - 12:34 PM, said:

kingnothing, on 03 February 2010 - 03:55 AM, said:

Apologies if offendedd anyone with the concept. I'm not bagging God, I'm just saying there are some concepts in christianity that lead towards punishment as a form of a redemption or whatever.

And, um, how did this thread transition to WOT? Anyway thanks for the input. No matter what you believe in.

No worries man, I just don't like the idea that some people have that redemption is gained through punishment. That is nothing like the Christian teachings, and I would be interested to know where this concept came from.

Silly practices like self flaggelation and having to go to confession. confessing you did something wrong is actually healthy, especially to someone who you are accountable to and close to and respect, but to believe that the New Testament God demands you come crawling weekly to church only to emotionally beat yourself is stupid. You're saved in Christs sacrifice that took the sin of the world.... so rejoice, God loves you.

I know, sadly, that that's not the God, or Jesus that a lot of people have been introduced to... and that's a real shame.

Well, first , the question is not to know if God loves me or not, but if I do love Him or not!

More important (and serious, 'cause the first is more or less a joke), is to understand it was a time Religion was the only real border btw anarchy and peacefull life. So religion did have to stress things that are today obvious or even without sense. The relation btw monotheist religions and pigs is for a lay man of the XXIst century hard to understand, but 40 years, in France, pork was dangerous meat if not cooked correctly or prepared correctly. So, if you have to protect a population against such risk, with little medical possibilities (or prophylactic possibilities) the best and easiest is indeed to enact a law stating : meat from pigs you shall not eat (or whatever).

There is today many countries were the monks stand as the village shrinks (doctor for head) or gynocologist (doctor for dicks). I live in one of those countries (Thailand, PHuket), and people will lapidated you if you tell them they better go to a mental institution, or to see an urologist! Anway they would not believe another human, but a monk (even a budhist) they will believe. So going weekly to Church for confession is in fact a mental teraphy (spelling?) , do 3 ave and 4 pater (in latin, if you please) are indeed such harsh punishment, even if you confessed to have rape your sister last monday and / or the daughter of some farmer the day after ... More seriously, it will provide some form of support for people having remorse for some bad acting (so avoiding them to turn banana), it will also scare shitless some weak mind, more prompt to act than to think. Still here , we can notice it is all about social rules, and not at all about God (whatever God we are apoken) at all.

Then, come the canonic laws, that are the laws ruling the relation btw the Divine and the Wordly things. They cover about everything, prostitution, labour, salary, vacations .... and since 1500 years (yes, for the church prostituates are human like any others, and must be protected against abuse, and shall receive a decent fees for their services ... funny no? People shall work only 10 hours a day 6 days a weeks, and get days off regulary ...)

Then the case of Jesus, who died on the cross for the remittance (spelling?) of our sins, and who came back from the dead after 3 days. Here is the twist, the famous sins he died for are defined technicaly as the 'ORIGINAL SIN', means the sin we inherited from Adam and Eve, not the sins I will comit next saturday night while laying with a couple of ladyboys ... Different stuffs. But if only that, it would not be a big deal, and the christian religion would have die since a ling time. Still technicaly, because Jesus found the human race worth the sacrifice, God (and here we are touching the concept of the Holly triangle, God, the son and the holly spirit) accepted individual remitance, if you really feel sorry to have commit them , of individual sins. It is at posteriori, never at priori, if you sin you must first regrets what yo udid, second try to not do it again, third go to church and confess (loose face in front of other people if you prefer), and eventually be pardoned. Even if God love you, if you you do not love him then not pardon can be given (the very reason of my first sentence). That being the very tenant of the Roman Catholic faith and the holly sacrement of confession.

Notice the Priest who listen to you is at the moment not a human anymore; he is the vessel of God, and your confession is a secret btw you and God (in France for example it is written in the civil laws).

Relation with other religion, technically, every religion respecting the 10 orders (wording?) of God is recognize as sweet to God'eyes; while obviously the Roman Catholic one is the sweetest; but you know what they about tastes and colors .... But saddly, for a long time religion have been a instrument of power (for many reasons, some good, some very bad), and it is always good to give an ennemy to the commoners when shit hit the fan!

The flagellations ... well, when the plague hit europe, people did not know what to do, so they reversed to old practices (human sacrifice), the blood magic, the most powerfull of them. But as they were all catholics, it would be a sin to kill another one ... so they decided to spread some of their blood. Now would you dare it did not work , for barbaric as it was, at least only 40% of the european population died. I know it sound crazy to say that today, but still we know nothing about the Plague, where it started, and what make it stop, while I do not believe in what I wrote, thsoe people did believe in it, and we can not scientically proove they were wrong. But it is not christian to do that, it was a return to old (well not so old in fact, 500 years or less ago) usage to sacrifice human to the local deities! 500 years is nothing in the old mediterranean world, there are cities still having the same namings today as they had in Caesar time : Rue Groecinus for exemple, with all the house being about 2000 years old, but now will modern confort).