[cdupuy]

I am reading Deadhouse Gates and have a question. If Emperor Kellanved is shadowthorne, how come Quick Ben, when he met with him in Gardens of the Moon, seemed to go way back? Qucik Ben is an old soul? How long as Laseen been in control, not very long I thought? For Emperor Kellanved to be Shadowthorne does not seem to fit. I thought Shadowthorne was ancient. What am I missing? This also applies to Dancer and Rope. How can they be one in the same. I thought Rope has been around for ages.

[Defiance]

I'm no Malazan professional, but I'd say there's sufficient time to be a lot of history between the two of them. There's a 7 year jump between the GotM prologue and the first chapter, and in the prologue Laseen's gambit for the throne is underway, although if I remember correctly the emperor and Dancer are still away (been years since I read the first book so my memory is a bit foggy. I'd say they got back just a few months to a year after the culling that was going on in the Mouse Quarter (pretty sure it was the Mouse). That gives somewhere around 6 years for Quick Ben and Shadowthrone to develop a history together.

RAFO about Quick Ben being an old soul.

And yes, Dancer=The Rope=Cotillion, same as Ammanas=Shadowthrone=Kellanved.

This post has been edited by Defiance: 28 January 2010 - 04:09 AM

[HoosierDaddy]

High House Shadow has only recently come into being.

[caladanbrood]

As much as I hate to say this... the details are really a read and find out question. Much of the history of Shadowthrone becomes apparent later on. And of Quick Ben, for that matter. But to give an idea of timescale, I believe the Siege of Pale is the 9th year of Laseen's rule.

Basically, Shadowthrone and Cotillion have been around long enough to make a name for themselves amongst the pantheon, but they are very new gods in the grand scheme of things. The power of House Shadow comes from... other sources which will become apparent much late in the series. It's impossible to say too much more now without spoilers I'm afraid.

[cdupuy]

Defiance, on 28 January 2010 - 04:08 AM, said:

I'm no Malazan professional, but I'd say there's sufficient time to be a lot of history between the two of them. There's a 7 year jump between the GotM prologue and the first chapter, and in the prologue Laseen's gambit for the throne is underway, although if I remember correctly the emperor and Dancer are still away (been years since I read the first book so my memory is a bit foggy. I'd say they got back just a few months to a year after the culling that was going on in the Mouse Quarter (pretty sure it was the Mouse). That gives somewhere around 6 years for Quick Ben and Shadowthrone to develop a history together.

RAFO about Quick Ben being an old soul.

And yes, Dancer=The Rope=Cotillion, same as Ammanas=Shadowthrone=Kellanved.

Okay, so Qucik Ben betrayed the Emperor at some stage before Laseen's coup d'état , Emperor ascended, and the shapeshifter took the name Quick Ben to hide from Shadowthorne.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

If you can go back to GotM they mention several times in it that High House Shadow started appearing in the deck of dragons about 10 years before the start of the book (prologue excluded). That is when ST and Cotillion became active.

Edit: Quote

Gardens of the Moon page 93

(talking about High House Shadow)
"True enough," Tayschrenn said, rising to his feet with a grunt. "The birth of that bastard realm has ever troubled me."
"It's young yet," Tattersail said. "It's final shaping is still centuries away, and it may never happen. Recall other new Houses that ended up dying a quick death."

This doesn't give an exact date, but it does show you that Shadowthrone and the Rope aren't ancient.

This post has been edited by WhiskeyJackDaniels: 28 January 2010 - 04:38 AM

[caladanbrood]

Quick Ben has been involved in shadow-worship for a very long time, too... he has a long history with the Cult of Shadow from before he became a Bridgeburner. More RAFO.

[cdupuy]

caladanbrood, on 28 January 2010 - 04:17 AM, said:

As much as I hate to say this... the details are really a read and find out question. Much of the history of Shadowthrone becomes apparent later on. And of Quick Ben, for that matter. But to give an idea of timescale, I believe the Siege of Pale is the 9th year of Laseen's rule.

Basically, Shadowthrone and Cotillion have been around long enough to make a name for themselves amongst the pantheon, but they are very new gods in the grand scheme of things. The power of House Shadow comes from... other sources which will become apparent much late in the series. It's impossible to say too much more now without spoilers I'm afraid.

Thanks mate, I will just keep reading. Quite like these books.

[caladanbrood]

Good news Welcome to the forums!

[Abyss]

There's a huge element of RAFO to these questions, but the short, nonspoiler version is that while High House Shadow is relatively new, 'Shadow' as a warren and aspect goes back MUCH longer, and Kellanved and Dancer and Ben Adaephon Delat were involved with shadow, and each other, in various ways long before they became Shadowthrone and Cotillion and Quick Ben.

If you're liking the book then you'll really enjoy the details as they are revealed.

- Abyss, slim AND shady.

[MTS]

There is a connection between the three that will be addressed in later books (MoI and BH if I recall correctly), although the minor details (and a few of the majors) aren't fleshed out. It's enough to gather a picture, however.

Also note that Kellanved 's 'official' rule lasted an unnaturally long time, something on the order of a century IIRC. Even considering the amount of time they were absent from the Empire (where Laseen, Dassem and presumably others ruled in all but name) and the time it took for the Empire to conquer Seven Cities, it's plenty of time for them to create history. Especially considering their connections to Shadow.

This post has been edited by Mappo's Travelling Sack: 28 January 2010 - 04:30 PM