[George Awesome]

Imperial Historian, on 24 January 2010 - 02:38 PM, said:

Quote

If possible. SE seems to keep introducing new things, and the end of GotM saw a bunch of those things converge in an extended sequence set in a fixed, sequential time period: if the series clicks into that gear and stays there, I'd like it.

I think this may be you just having a problem with SE's writing style, which is all about slowly weaving a few threads, and then combining them into an awesome finale, the books nearly all start slow and build up to a convergence

I think you're probably right: I did notice that pattern in the last book, and it seems to be happening again: hundreds of pages of wikipedia entries followed by a narrative that finally picks up all the threads and goes somewhere with them.

This means I only like 10% of these books, but have to read the first 90% to get there ... not sure what to do about that

Well, I'm committed to reading 2 chapters past Duiker's joining the Chain of Dogs, at least.



And about magic being rare/valuable: then shouldn't mages be super-billionaires? Regarded as godlike, above mere mortals?

All these normal humans priding themselves on being good at fighting (the Toblakai bodyguard) - irrelevant next to a casual handwave by a random magic user.

[Illuyankas]

Kind of why otararal is so valued, removing the mage's advantage.

As for the super billionaire comment, mages powerful enough to be regarded like that are usually High Mages, like Tayschrenn. Most mages aren't nearly as strong, and just as easily assassinated by surprise or in their sleep as everyone else. Squad mages in particular are fairly rubbish as mages go.

[Eispeis]

George Awesome, on 25 January 2010 - 02:36 AM, said:

And about magic being rare/valuable: then shouldn't mages be super-billionaires? Regarded as godlike, above mere mortals?

All these normal humans priding themselves on being good at fighting (the Toblakai bodyguard) - irrelevant next to a casual handwave by a random magic user.

Regarding super-billionaires: There isn't a lot of mercantilism when it comes to mages. This isn't your basic Diablo/Baldurs Gate/Neverwinter Nights/D&D world where you can buy The Sword of Ultimate Decapitation, Scrolls of Whatsit, Potions of Bull's Reflexes and Rubbing Salve of Cat's Strenght. Sure there are some mercenary companies, some of which contain mages, but these mages are not nearly as powerful as the High Mages like Tayschrenn. There are very few human mages capable of "gamebreakers" all on their own. A few will crop up during the series, often at high costs to themselves. In a lot of battles the mages exclusively try to take out/nullify the opposing mages making the magic used "irrelevant" for the outcome of the battle. While the more powerful mages often fight for a cause making wealth irrelevant because if they fail they die/end up in a world where wealth is worth about as much as a plutonium testicle. Much of this is RAFO I'm afraid.

Regarding "a casual handwave" I don't see how this is any different from, for instance, the weilders of Saidin/Saidar in Wheel of Time or any other random magic user in any other random fantasy series for that matter. The abundance of magic in the Malazan world is also explained to a large degree by what is happening in the world, which is not a normal occurence by any standard either. There are a lot of gods and ascendants at play, power draws power, etc. etc. Also as I'm sure you've noticed the world is not populated solely by humans, but also other races and peoples from other realms, not to mention the Elder or Founding Races (you've met both T'lan Imass and Jaghut so far) which are capable of extra-worldly things.

I had a hard time adjusting to Deadhouse Gates as well and didn't enjoy it at first, but I plowed through. I still don't think it is a fantastic book compared to the others in the series, but if you decide the series is not for you I won't try to convince you otherwise apart from saying that Memories of Ice is the best book I've ever read.

This is covered in several other threads, but I would rank the Malazan books like this:

Memories of Ice - book 3
Reaper's Gale - book 7
The Bonehunters - book 6
House of Chains - book 4
Midnight Tides - book 5
Toll the Hounds - book 8
Gardens of the Moon - book 1
Deadhouse Gates - book 2

I enjoyed every single book and Deadhouse Gates isn't far behind Reaper's Gale in terms of enjoyment. Most of the positions are basically interchangeable, and I predict with 150 pages to go that Dust of Dreams (book 9) will place itself ahead of Reaper's Gale. If you feel that the books are not worth the effort, put them down and forget about them. Just remember that this is probably completely different from any fantasy you've ever read, and Erikson doesn't explain a lot. The books are a lot of work, but most of us argue that the work is worth it in the end.

OK. This became a rambling post running off on a tangent, but hopefully it helps a little.

This post has been edited by Eispeis: 25 January 2010 - 08:28 AM

[Bauchelain the Evil]

@George Awesome

About the reaction people in front of some innatural event, if you continue reading you will find a comment in this very book about people who don't know what warrens are nor that multiple realms exist.
As for the flies thing, Felisin and all the others were probably fucked up by that , while Heboric, who as High Priest to Fener has probably seen his fill of magic, wasn't surprised that there was no man inside the cloud of flies, but that Hood,the God of Death, had just manifested in front of him.

This post has been edited by Bauchelain the Evil: 25 January 2010 - 04:28 PM

[Ulrik]

George Awesome, on 25 January 2010 - 02:36 AM, said:

All these normal humans priding themselves on being good at fighting (the Toblakai bodyguard) - irrelevant next to a casual handwave by a random magic user.

Ulrik smiles...laughes... RAFO, this one is good (no offence, you cant know, you are just in the beginning)

But if you have problem with SE´s style, well, reconsider if it is worth for you. MBoF is based on very wide span of multiple threads and some of them got solved in (for example) four books. On the other hand, every book has its own leitmotive and for DG it is awesome and monumentaly epic badass (call me Corabb) Chain of Dogs.

But all thing about position of mages, their value, killability... thats all RAFO as well as very complicated pantheon and political situation... Someone doesnt have to posess patience and thats no flaw.

[Cobbles]

Hello George,

I was hoping to hear from you about the second book. Thanks for the long writeup. I'm currently 2/3rds through Memories of Ice and I hope you give the books a chance because it only gets better (in particular book 3 has plenty of explanations coming, even early on).

Let me try to answer some of your concerns with the knowledge of a person who's not that far ahead of you in terms of pagecount.

1) The dissolving priest. I think the reactions are somewhat appropriate. Magic is not that commonplace. Most mages seem to be recruited into the Malazan army. There were a few mages in Pale and few in Darujhistan, mostly part of the governing class. So, to see magic wouldn't be a daily experience. I think someone explained it very well. The priest reacted because he really understood what he saw. The others might just not be used to magic on a daily basis. It's also a game of expectation. Everybody expected a real priest.

Now, my own question is, in somewhat retrospect, a veering divers could have produced the same spectacle, am I right? How common are soletaken/divers, do people know about them, and would they recognize one?

2) The Redguard assassination plan? I would mostly agree with you. Maybe they had only one crossbow (not that this would be stupid, too), and reloading takes time. I don't know. Fair point.

3) Everything depends on a moderately-sized conference room's worth of people. Again a fair point. I think it is part of the genre limitation. There's so many people already to remember. Many more than typical for any book but epic fantasy. Character recycling is almost a necessity. I can only think of Robert Jordan who has a larger number of characters (and good luck keeping all those Aes Sedai straight).

4) Rake and tvtropes, I'd say yes. Well, he's a different race which might explain the coloring, but still. Anyway, doesn't bother me much. Practically everything has been done before and tvtropes entries are a dime a dozen.

5) I agree with your point on SE's sentence structure. It takes me much more time to read his books than mostly anything else. It doesn't flow well with me. Now, I personally enjoy reading the books because they're challenging in terms of plot etc.

6) The whirlwind queen practically alone in the desert? I'd say a fair point. Handing over the book would be the type of situation where cover etc. might be compromised, so you'd think some extra vigilance is in order. Then again, this might be modern-world thinking. Think only 100 years back, the amateurish assassination of the Archduke Ferdinand.

7) The sliding beds. Yes, that seemed a little bit over the top and out of place. The decapitation not so much IMHO. It defined Baudin early on.

8) Felisin. I agree, the whole bloodflies episode seems to be over the top. Doesn't bother me too much since I mostly dismiss it as long as it is not really plot relevant. Think of it as nasty, giant mosquitos and you'll get over it. I think you're overanalyzing that part and it detracts from your enjoyment. I also agree that her attachment to Beneth didn't work well with me. This has more plot relevance because it makes her suspicious of Baudin. The whole thing could have been handled a bit better. Still, it's plausible.

9) General comment about RAFO. I know there's nothing more frustrating than getting a RAFO. Now, being halfway through MoI, I think SE got the order of the books wrong. It should've been GotM, then MoI, then DG. I think it would make much more sense and you'd have quite a few answers to certain questions concerning GotM without spoiling DG. For instance (and I don't think this spoils too much) in MoI you'll meet the cadre mage Spindle. He will give you a perspective on the more 'usual' bread & butter mages. Don't take Tayschrenn, Rake or Quick Ben as reference points. Even Kulp is not really that powerful either as you'll see in DG. As for your make/break point, I'd suggest to follow the Chain of Dogs to wherever it leads you.

This post has been edited by Cobbles: 25 January 2010 - 11:58 PM

[Illuyankas]

It almost was GOTM -> MOI -> DG, but a hard drive failure killed the first draft of MOI so SE went onto DG instead. Personally MOI is still my favourite book in the series so I'm not that fussed.

[George Awesome]

Eispeis, on 25 January 2010 - 08:26 AM, said:

George Awesome, on 25 January 2010 - 02:36 AM, said:

And about magic being rare/valuable: then shouldn't mages be super-billionaires? Regarded as godlike, above mere mortals?

All these normal humans priding themselves on being good at fighting (the Toblakai bodyguard) - irrelevant next to a casual handwave by a random magic user.

Regarding "a casual handwave" I don't see how this is any different from, for instance, the weilders of Saidin/Saidar in Wheel of Time or any other random magic user in any other random fantasy series for that matter.

Well, yeah, the problem is somewhat genre-systemic (though I stand by Sanderson's "Mistborn" and Michael Scott Rohan's "Winter of the World" [from what I remember] series for consistent, limited magic systems). Mistborn and Malazan are the only two fantasy books I've picked up in about 8 years, so it seems like a lot of dormant objections are rising to the surface.

Cobbles, on 25 January 2010 - 11:54 PM, said:

Hello George,

I was hoping to hear from you about the second book. Thanks for the long writeup. I'm currently 2/3rds through Memories of Ice and I hope you give the books a chance because it only gets better (in particular book 3 has plenty of explanations coming, even early on).

Let me try to answer some of your concerns with the knowledge of a person who's not that far ahead of you in terms of pagecount.

1) The dissolving priest. I think the reactions are somewhat appropriate. Magic is not that commonplace. Most mages seem to be recruited into the Malazan army. There were a few mages in Pale and few in Darujhistan, mostly part of the governing class. So, to see magic wouldn't be a daily experience. I think someone explained it very well. The priest reacted because he really understood what he saw. The others might just not be used to magic on a daily basis. It's also a game of expectation. Everybody expected a real priest.

Hey Cobbles. Thanks for naming your new thread after mine - even if I can't go there yet cuz I can only read about 20 pages of this book at a time before my brain shuts down.

About the flies reaction: I thought somebody earlier compared it to a person getting gutshot or a car crashing: not supernatural, just dangerous and nearby: I guess, but based on the exact words used, it sounded more like a supernatural awe reaction to me: my main problem, I guess, was that I got the impression that SE expected me to be surprised by something so out of the ordinary, when I had read the denouement of GotM the night before.

Cobbles, on 25 January 2010 - 11:54 PM, said:

5) I agree with your point on SE's sentence structure. It takes me much more time to read his books than mostly anything else. It doesn't flow well with me. Now, I personally enjoy reading the books because they're challenging in terms of plot etc.

Thank you. So, he doesn't smooth out later on? Nuts.

Bauchelain the Evil, on 25 January 2010 - 04:27 PM, said:

@George Awesome

As for the flies thing, Felisin and all the others were probably fucked up by that , while Heboric, who as High Priest to Fener has probably seen his fill of magic, wasn't surprised that there was no man inside the cloud of flies, but that Hood,the God of Death, had just manifested in front of him.

As for it being a personal manifestation of Hood, I didn't get that - it couldn't have been, like, Hood's secretary, as far as Heboric knew? Plus, from what we knew, Heboric and the random NPC's had the same reaction for the same reasons: I understand that things like this are RAFO's, but it seems like ... SE is expecting us to have certain reactions to events that we can't have due to our ignorance: all I can do at these plotpoints is shrug and keep reading, having no clue what's going on, what the context is, or why characters are doing what they're doing: I accept that this may be consistent in-universe if facts are being withheld, but it's kind of alienating to the reader (me, anyway).

To clarify some more: normally, authors consider their readers' state of knowledge, and then tell us more things so as to produce certain reactions in us: I guess it's just how SE rolls, but he doesn't seem to give a damn about this, either for the sake of "style" or, uh, trouble saving his MS word files in the right order ... stuff happens, characters react, and we readers just follow along "like dogs being shown a card trick" (to quote Bill Hicks).

Illuyankas, on 26 January 2010 - 12:21 AM, said:

It almost was GOTM -> MOI -> DG, but a hard drive failure killed the first draft of MOI so SE went onto DG instead.

(Imagine this smiley's eyes rolling a little, too.)

So ... should I read the first quarter of MOI while I'm reading this?

**************

General note that may or may not be RAFO: if this planet's medievalish civilisation has been around so long ... how? Shouldn't somebody have mage-nuked it to glass or developed steam-power by now?

This post has been edited by George Awesome: 26 January 2010 - 01:31 AM

[Malaclypse]

Maybe this series just isn't for you George

Quote

Steven Erikson: One of the things that always fascinated me in my readings of recorded people's histories has been the strange notion of time, especially the way it's sometimes compressed, other times stretched out. There's a history of the Goths I once read that does this again and again; as do a few versions of the Norse creation myth. As a writer of fiction, I realised this was exceedingly useful, particularly in the way it could mislead. Yeah, I'm a mean bastard, ain't I just. Anyway, The Malazan Book of the Fallen is a compiled history, warts and all. It's not above brazen manipulation of events and facts, because, well, that's the nature of the beast. By this, do I mean it as a way of squirming out of things? No, you'd all never let me get off that easily. I just love the feel of an uncertain history, as all histories are. If none of you had any questions, then I'd be worried.(Q and A with malazanempire No 1 (2003))

[George Awesome]

Malaclypse, on 26 January 2010 - 01:53 AM, said:

Quote

do I mean it as a way of squirming out of things? No, you'd all never let me get off that easily. (Q and A with malazanempire No 1 (2003))

Illuyankas, on 26 January 2010 - 12:21 AM, said:

It almost was GOTM -> MOI -> DG, but a hard drive failure killed the first draft of MOI so SE went onto DG instead.

Hm.

[Malaclypse]

point being, George, that SE delights in confounding people's expectations so the kinds of problems you're having with the series are only going to multiply. You're better off sticking with authors like Sanderson who give you what you expect

edit: and you neg rep me for that...interesting, so what is so offensive about what I've said?

This post has been edited by Malaclypse: 26 January 2010 - 04:15 AM

[Clanless Warrior]

Dear George,

What you say rings true. I did not thoroughly enjoy Deadhouse Gates, but am glad I read it. Felisin has few redeeming qualities, and the long schleps through the desert or through the mining camps or wherever with that whiny bitch grated on me like something harsh (for lack of verbosity...).

However, do not despair. If you have read GoTM, then you at least liked the beginning of the series, for reasons that i feel need not be stated. I loved many GoTM characters, but found myself lacking in affection towards several in the second novel, especially Felisin.

But upon having completed the book, several aspects stand out as quite touching: all of the Wickans, including Coltaine, Sormo Enath, Nil, and Nether. I will not go into furter detail here because I do not wish to give anything away.
Icarium and Mappo are botrh beautifully noble creatures, as you can tell from the get-go.
Duiker, though dull, is a man.
Fiddler, Kalam, Crokus, and Apsalar are likeable as well.
I know the above may seem like a weak defense to a 1200-page book riddled with (mentioned by you) faults, but these characters and their arcs made the novel worthwile to me, and I suspect that if you finish the book, they will to you as well, if others do not.

And, best of all, the sequel, which takes place simultaneously, Memories of Ice, is the best one so far, so don't despair; there is a light at the end of the tunnel.

Strength and honour!

[George Awesome]

Malaclypse, on 26 January 2010 - 04:00 AM, said:

point being, George, that SE delights in confounding people's expectations so the kinds of problems you're having with the series are only going to multiply. You're better off sticking with authors like Sanderson who give you what you expect

Yeah, got that: my post was about doubting his motivations in shuffling the order of events.

The movie Memento, or anything by Tarantino, has yet to make me suspect a pre-deadline hard drive crash.

This post has been edited by George Awesome: 26 January 2010 - 04:19 AM

[George Awesome]

Malaclypse, on 26 January 2010 - 04:00 AM, said:

edit: and you neg rep me for that...interesting, so what is so offensive about what I've said?

Your neg rep of me, mostly, plus the ambiguous smiley.

This post has been edited by George Awesome: 26 January 2010 - 04:25 AM

[Malaclypse]

George Awesome, on 26 January 2010 - 04:15 AM, said:

Malaclypse, on 26 January 2010 - 04:00 AM, said:

point being, George, that SE delights in confounding people's expectations so the kinds of problems you're having with the series are only going to multiply. You're better off sticking with authors like Sanderson who give you what you expect

Yeah, got that: my post was about doubting his motivations in shuffling the order of events.

I like time-shuffling: the movie Memento, or something by Tarantino. They don't make me suspect hard drive crashes at all.

I'm not talking about your most recent post - I'm responding to the body of your contribution here. Why these people are humouring you is beyond my comprehension. You wonder about time-shuffling regarding Deadhouse Gates and Memories of Ice without having even finished Deadhouse Gates?! Minor spoiler but they deal with roughly the same time period, ie., they are concurrent for the most part There is no shuffling of the order of events.

[Malaclypse]

George Awesome, on 26 January 2010 - 03:33 AM, said:

Malaclypse, on 26 January 2010 - 01:53 AM, said:

Quote

do I mean it as a way of squirming out of things? No, you'd all never let me get off that easily. (Q and A with malazanempire No 1 (2003))

Illuyankas, on 26 January 2010 - 12:21 AM, said:

It almost was GOTM -> MOI -> DG, but a hard drive failure killed the first draft of MOI so SE went onto DG instead.

Hm.

check your profile. It was Wry that neg-repped you twat.

[George Awesome]

Malaclypse, on 26 January 2010 - 04:27 AM, said:

George Awesome, on 26 January 2010 - 04:15 AM, said:

Malaclypse, on 26 January 2010 - 04:00 AM, said:

point being, George, that SE delights in confounding people's expectations so the kinds of problems you're having with the series are only going to multiply. You're better off sticking with authors like Sanderson who give you what you expect

Yeah, got that: my post was about doubting his motivations in shuffling the order of events.

I like time-shuffling: the movie Memento, or something by Tarantino. They don't make me suspect hard drive crashes at all.

Why these people are humouring you is beyond my comprehension.

Edit: Oh, yeah, wry it was. I up-repped your last post to neutralise it: sorry about that.

Still confused about that smiley, though.

This post has been edited by George Awesome: 26 January 2010 - 04:33 AM

[Malaclypse]

I delight in your confusion.

[George Awesome]

Still wasn't crazy about the "stick with dumb author" implication and reexplanation of the obvious though: smiley didn't help.

But you got me about the negrep. Sorry about that.

This post has been edited by George Awesome: 26 January 2010 - 04:36 AM

[George Awesome]

Clanless Warrior, on 26 January 2010 - 04:12 AM, said:

However, do not despair. If you have read GoTM, then you at least liked the beginning of the series, for reasons that i feel need not be stated (...)

I know the above may seem like a weak defense to a 1200-page book riddled with (mentioned by you) faults, but these characters and their arcs made the novel worthwile to me, and I suspect that if you finish the book, they will to you as well, if others do not.

And, best of all, the sequel, which takes place simultaneously, Memories of Ice, is the best one so far, so don't despair; there is a light at the end of the tunnel.

Well, finishing GotM was a case of working for delayed gratification, with a moderate payoff with the climax/culmination (final boss assault on dinner party).

It feels like I've been plunged back into wikipedia-entry land with this volume, and that I only like the ends of these books.