[iRFNA]

As some people have pointed out, a cotillion is a type of ball room dance. From Dancer to Cotillion, then; haha, cute. But does it end there? Of particular interest is the type of dance: "a formalized dance for a large number of people, in which a head couple leads the other dancers through elaborate and stately figures". Now, why does that matter?

In multiple instances, dancer/cotillion has displayed the ability to project what tayschrenn (in night of knives) called a "sending," by manifesting his form elsewhere. While this sending tells tayschrenn that it is basically the bouncer to the party and also claims/feigns the ability to murder temper, it is never actually shown what its capabilities are, if any. He is also shown manifesting one directly after ascending that edgewalker either pretends to be fooled by or is actually fooled by, but I really doubt edgewalker was unaware that it was fake considering how well he can see things in shadow. Another interesting thing to note, that may or may not be related, is when cotillion visits lostara in house of chains, the room he is in is "filled with dancing shadows".

Can cotillion create a combat-effective shadow duplicate? Can he create more than one? He obviously can create and manipulate these sendings as well as manifest things such as weaponry that really can harm things. Perhaps the name cotillion is simply a foreshadowing of what he's capable of when the cards are down: the true cotillion leading his shadow-woven extras in an elaborate dance of death. Are there any other references supporting or destroying this idea?

[Aptorian]

I don't think it's a great idea to distract yourself with complicated illusions if you're facing something that is skilled enough to kill you if your head isn't in the game.

What is Cotillions abilities? Who knows. He's a young god. As we've heard from Edgewalker and Panek, there is many things that Cotillion doesn't know about his realm and it's a given that he hasn't yet realised the scope of his capabilities.

[iRFNA]

Ya, but who doesn't want to imagine a couple dozen cotillions going all ides of march on kilmandaros?

[Abyss]

It's been suggested but never definitively shown that Shadowthrone is 'spreading himself thin', perhaps having shadows of himself, so to speak, observing and affecting events in various places at the same time.

I figured that had to do with him being a mage and 'Shadowthrone', King of HHS more than anything else, but strictly speaking, we don't know that Cotillion CAN'T do that too, tho we've seen nothing to suggest it.

We know Cots is a talented assassin, but we've never had a solid statement whether he was a mage or not - after all, large chunks of the Claw, and likely the Talon and Shadow Cult are/were mage assassins. His projection to Tayshrenn suggests he may have been a mage too. Sure, Killanved could have facilitated that, but i'm wondering if perhaps cots has the skill set too.

Plus, Meanas is, after all, a warren of 'illusion', and he IS one half of its ruling god set.

Interesting...

- Abyss, could be jumping at shadows...

[champ]

i hadnt thought of cots been a mage until rotcg when cowl was talked about in the same breath as cots, rivals in the game n cowl been the guards chief super mage assassin warrior, after that guessed cots had to be a super ninja mage warrior also

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

I think when they talk about how Dancer used to teleport into Crimson Guard headquarters and kill a few mages and then teleport out before anyone knew what hit them it is pretty good evidence that he was some sort of a mage and could use warrens.

[HoosierDaddy]

Cotillion's "Shadow Dance", what is it if not Cotillion's shadows wielding weapons and mauling insane amounts of people? The "multiple" part would be all the shadows involved in the dance.

[Silencer]

I've always figured Dancer to have at least minor magical abilities - particularly given the Shadow Dance is a very magical ability set as we see performed by Apsalar, and Lostara mentions in DG I believe that it 'invokes certain rituals of Rashan'. However, since his ascension to godhood it would seem very likely that Cotillion's magical abilities have increased substantially, not least of which is the ability to manifest anywhere at will (whether in physical form or not) and to create items out of thin air Shadow.

However, his rivalry with Cowl almost guarantees the need for magic, as we see in TTH that Cowl once had a magical duel with Anomander Rake (the exact circumstances of which are suspect, of course, because if Rake and Cowl were both going all out, and Cowl survived, then there is no way in hell Topper could ever have defeated Cowl - the Avowed Veil would have just blasted Topper into pieces). However, the fact that his magical abilities are shown as rather high indicates that Dancer's own prowess in that area must have been substantial as a mortal, unless he was backed up in this regard by Kellanved - which is one thing I considered possible regarding his assaults on the Crimson Guard high command, much like his assassination of the Protectress of Heng (Kellanved had to be there, imo - Dancer alone would not have been magically adept enough to take her out, I think, because once again, if he was...oooh, tangent. If that was the reason why Rake retreated from Kellanved and Dancer in thier confrontation on Quon Tali? Faced with two mages of significant ability like that, with the threat of Tayschrenn, and the rest of the High Mages of the Empire, Rake would know he was outmatched...but I digress, it would make Dancer ridiculously overpowered).

The question about creating duplicates of himself is moot, I think. It would allow for his lightning fast extermination of the Edur on the ships in HoC, but so would sufficient speed and ability, both of which he has shown.

Still, the man's a kickass character, and we have no idea how good he is...yet. The excerpt from TCG still makes me salivate in anticipation. ^^

[Aptorian]

Dancer lead the emperial and 7C Shadow Cult. I think that should be enough said about his magical skills. Even if he took this position though violence and intimidation, it still tells volumes about his capabilities.

As for the Rake vs Cots and ST argument, I don't think Cots mage qualities were as in important as the fact that "Cots kills things good with knives and stuff".

[Abyss]

Aptorian, on 20 January 2010 - 04:58 AM, said:

Dancer lead the emperial and 7C Shadow Cult. I think that should be enough said about his magical skills. Even if he took this position though violence and intimidation, it still tells volumes about his capabilities.

Agreed. It has to be implicit that if he's leading a Cult of Shadow, he must be invoking Meanas or Rashan in there somewhere.

Quote

As for the Rake vs Cots and ST argument, I don't think Cots mage qualities were as in important as the fact that "Cots kills things good with knives and stuff".

For all intents and purposes he characterizes himself as an assassin, but that doesn't preclude him from being a High Mage. he just doesn't go around proclaiming himself as one, which is probably handy in keeping people like the Protectress underestimating him.

We've seen any number of Claw who were mages but call themselves assassins, and any number of mages who were perfectly happy to break out a sword and stab someone.

@Silencer - Topper's rivalry also comes from perpetually being considered 'fourth' after Dancer, Cowl and Laseen. Once Dancer ascended and Laseen went Empress, Topper could only wonder whether he could take Dancer's primary rival.

Cowl and Rake had no love lost there but remember as of GotM, even the Empire's High Mages were underestimating Rake, and Rake was holding back too. Could Cowl, or Topper, beat Rake - i seriously doubt it. Could either of them make him 'work for it'? probably, but now we're getting into ho'd win territory and the only important point is that evidence suggests Dancer was a mage.

- Abyss, ... notes the answer is 'Wolverine', btw...

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Abyss, on 20 January 2010 - 04:29 PM, said:

Aptorian, on 20 January 2010 - 04:58 AM, said:

Dancer lead the emperial and 7C Shadow Cult. I think that should be enough said about his magical skills. Even if he took this position though violence and intimidation, it still tells volumes about his capabilities.

Agreed. It has to be implicit that if he's leading a Cult of Shadow, he must be invoking Meanas or Rashan in there somewhere.

Quote

As for the Rake vs Cots and ST argument, I don't think Cots mage qualities were as in important as the fact that "Cots kills things good with knives and stuff".

For all intents and purposes he characterizes himself as an assassin, but that doesn't preclude him from being a High Mage. he just doesn't go around proclaiming himself as one, which is probably handy in keeping people like the Protectress underestimating him.

We've seen any number of Claw who were mages but call themselves assassins, and any number of mages who were perfectly happy to break out a sword and stab someone.

@Silencer - Topper's rivalry also comes from perpetually being considered 'fourth' after Dancer, Cowl and Laseen. Once Dancer ascended and Laseen went Empress, Topper could only wonder whether he could take Dancer's primary rival.

Cowl and Rake had no love lost there but remember as of GotM, even the Empire's High Mages were underestimating Rake, and Rake was holding back too. Could Cowl, or Topper, beat Rake - i seriously doubt it. Could either of them make him 'work for it'? probably, but now we're getting into ho'd win territory and the only important point is that evidence suggests Dancer was a mage.

- Abyss, ... notes the answer is 'Wolverine', btw...

I don't think people like Cowl or Topper could take out Rake obviously. The purpose of Rake holding back from fully unveiling his potential at Pale and Darujhistan and earlier on Quon was probably that people like Kellanved, Dancer and Tayschrenn could have weakened him (like the Galayn demon Lord he fights in GotM) to the point that someone like Cowl could have taken advantage and maybe killed him.

[Paran]

Or... power draws power (in the Rake argument)...

Yeah, I think Dancer's powers were based off his skills in the Shadow Dance and the abilities gained of that - not strictly mage related. Since godhood, he's picked up that nifty Rope and gained "mastery" of shadows.

As for Cotillion, I assumed the name works on several layers - formal dance (formal dancer, more of a show, etc) tongue-in-cheek reference to all those who previously know him (audacious), leading others in a dance, etc. Any references for Ammanas?

This post has been edited by Paran: 03 February 2010 - 07:24 AM

[D'rek]

This whole Cowl-Rake thing, wasn't it just that Cowl attacked Silanah (because Silanah was potentially doing some friendly-fire), and then Rake got angry and started blasting magic at Cowl trying to hit him? I don't recall it saying Cowl was shooting back at Rake (though it's easy to assume he was jumping warrens to avoid getting fried, probably deflecting or absorbing some of Rake's attacks too). But it didn't really sound like a "mage duel" to me. And thus Cowl need not be anywhere near Rake's ability in that regard.

As for Dancer-High Mage, surely he can use some magic, but he just might not have a broad enough talent to be a "high mage" - if he has a real knack for magically-enhanced superspeed, superstrength and teleportation (as befitting a really good Shadow Dancer), but not much else, then one might not necessarily consider him much of a "high mage" by some definitions.

[Teblor Tea]

I had the impression the QuickBen\Kalam team was somehow a copy of the original Emperor \ Dancer team...

[Votan]

Teblor Tea, on 28 March 2011 - 02:25 AM, said:

I had the impression the QuickBen\Kalam team was somehow a copy of the original Emperor \ Dancer team...

Haha Think about this, we know Dassem has two distinct aspects with different personalities. His human side as Traveler and the whiny god we saw in TCG as Dessembrae. They act independently of each other. What if Quick Ben is Kellanved's human side, and Shadowthrone is the godly aspect? Crazy, right?

[Silk]

not possible right.... ;o)))

[SiriusL]

Silk, on 28 March 2011 - 03:20 PM, said:

not possible right.... ;o)))

Considering how they talk to each other, no, not possible.

But I agree with the "copy" idea, or at least the concept as an overall theme. It's a lot like the Bonehunters as a later incarnation (if you will) of the Bridgeburners, or the Barghast as the "modern-day" tribal culture to take the place of the pre-T'lan Imass.

QB and Kalam just didn't have the ambition to be rulers. Indeed, they preferred to remain very low profile. Not saying QB was as smart or skilled as Kellanved, and obviously Kalam was awed by Cotillion's skill in tBH...