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The fantasy genre and religion.

#1 User is offline   Shinrei 

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Posted 13 January 2010 - 06:20 AM

Inspired by the discussion in the "What are you" thread.

I asked the question, why are there more votes for agnostic and athiest than all of the other religions combined (and that is also including the "other" option).

Is there a reason for this? Some people have mentioned the well-published examples of Christians speaking out against Harry Potter and other nonsense, but that sort of Christian is in the vast minority if you ask me. And that's only amongst the Christian religion anyways.

What is the relationship, if any, that you perceive between religious belief and the reading of S.E. or any other fantasy?
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#2 User is offline   HoosierDaddy 

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Posted 13 January 2010 - 06:33 AM

I do think it is a minority of religious people who have a problem with "fantasy" books. The problem being, that most often the minority is very vocal in its belief. I find any religion that is based on a Book, that then tries to tell others what to read, to be hypocritical on its face.

Not to be insensitive, but amongst atheists, the Bible could very well belong in the same realm of literature as the MBotF.
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#3 User is offline   maro 

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Posted 13 January 2010 - 07:22 AM

Most readers of Sci Fi and Fantasy tend to be well educated. That generally means they have little truck with Religion.
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#4 User is offline   Shinrei 

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Posted 13 January 2010 - 09:34 AM

View Postmaro, on 13 January 2010 - 07:22 AM, said:

Most readers of Sci Fi and Fantasy tend to be well educated. That generally means they have little truck with Religion.



I have seen the evidence that there is a negative correlation between higher education and being religious.

However, I was reading fantasy novels in grade school and I would hazard a lot of us were, so I would hardly call that "well educated". Is there evidence that there is a correlation of higher education and reading fantasy?
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#5 User is offline   Tiste Simeon 

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Posted 13 January 2010 - 11:27 AM

I am university educated, a committed Christian and an avid fantasy/sci-fi reader. I follow the Bible as the living word of God, and I try to follow the teachings of Jesus as an essential part of my life. I love God and talk to Him all the time. But I don't see any problem with reading this genre, and to suggest that "most people who read sci-fi and fantasy are well educated" and therefore aren't religious is just ridiculous. The reason a lot of people who are Christians don't like fantasy is that some of Gods laws prohibit the practice of magic and sorcery, a main theme in fantasy books. The way I see it, if they can't take a novel at face value - just a story - then they are taking life too seriously. But you will find that in atheist and agnostic circles too... I'm not sure there is any massive correlation between these matters - CS Lewis was a Christian and wrote about witches and dark magic etc. And yes, I know the Narnia books were a thinly veiled Christian allegory, but considering that Tolkein the sometimes-called "father of fantasy" (and no I can't remember who said that) was also a Christian (I believe he was the one who introduced Lewis to the faith...

Anyways, I can understand why some Christians won't read fantasy books, but why they continue to kick up a fuss about it I don't know.

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#6 User is offline   Cougar 

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Posted 13 January 2010 - 12:32 PM

Well, well I never thought to see Simeon in a religion thread again, I thought he'd foresworn this corner of the boards.

For what it's worth I think the correlation between reading fantasy and higher intelligence, which I've seen mentioned loads of times but never seen the source, is a false correlation. I think Fantasy tends to be a geek pursuit (yes, you are all geeks, don't try to deny it) one of the reasons for being a geek is higher intelligence and the potential for social exclusion, having met loads of the Malazites I would put most in the bracket of higher intelligence and all in the geek category. Which really means you don't have to be clever to read fantasy it's just that the circles that some intelligent people move in drive them towards reading fantasy and sci-fi.

Unfortuantely whilst it would be ludicrous to suggest all Christians are stupid (even though Sim-sim the thrash metal panda is as daft as a box of rocks) there is a demonstrable correlation between higher education and declining belief in God, which I've always assumed is merely a product of the questioning rational mind rather than any inherent stupidity in Christianity itself.
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#7 User is offline   stone monkey 

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Posted 13 January 2010 - 12:51 PM

There does seem to be a correlation between sf/fantasy reading and areligiosity; but whether this is of a similar nature to that between the likelihood of being murdered and the number of churches in an area remains to be seen...

btw Tolkien (who was Catholic) and Lewis (who became CofE) fell out over Lewis' decision not to become a Catholic iirc.
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#8 User is offline   Tiste Simeon 

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Posted 13 January 2010 - 12:51 PM

View PostCougar, on 13 January 2010 - 12:32 PM, said:

(even though Sim-sim the thrash metal panda is as daft as a box of rocks)

Thanks. Too kind...
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#9 User is offline   Dolorous Menhir 

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Posted 13 January 2010 - 06:41 PM

Lets walk through the steps.

1. This is a board for discussing a complex and challenging author who doesn't attract a massively wide audience.
2. So the membership is composed of committed fans with a liking for discussing and arguing about the books.
3. This membership will as a result be more well-read, intellectual and likely more educated than the general public.
4. I would assert that the more intelligent and educated a population is, the less religious.
5. As a result the membership of this board is less religious than the general public.

Extra point - the poll in the original thread will have generated responses only from people who are sufficiently interested in religion to take part. In the general public, this would mean the strongly religious and their non-religious counterparts would take part in large numbers. But on the board the strongly religious are far fewer in number, so the poll produces a strongly non-religious result (over 50% agnostic/atheist).

I have no evidence to back up 4, but I don't think anyone could credibly challenge it (and I mean as a general statement, offering yourself as one counterexample doesn't disprove it).
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#10 User is offline   caladanbrood 

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Posted 13 January 2010 - 06:49 PM

 

View PostDolorous Menhir, on 13 January 2010 - 06:41 PM, said:

I have no evidence to back up 4, but I don't think anyone could credibly challenge it (and I mean as a general statement, offering yourself as one counterexample doesn't disprove it).


Well that's a rather handy way of getting away with a point you yourself admit you have no evidence for.








maro - so why do you think that then? Religion is just for the great unwashed masses and the people who exploit them? Some sort of evidence would tend to be needed to back up your statement, this is the discussion board after all.
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#11 User is offline   teholbeddict 

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Posted 13 January 2010 - 06:56 PM

View Poststone monkey, on 13 January 2010 - 12:51 PM, said:

btw Tolkien (who was Catholic) and Lewis (who became CofE) fell out over Lewis' decision not to become a Catholic iirc.



You are in fact correct SM. Lewis was actually an atheist for a good protion of his life and only turned you religion in his later years. For anyone interested in Lewis and his take on religion, as well as fantasy writing, I would recomment reading The Narnian: The Life and Imagination of C. S. Lewis by Alan Jacobs. It gives and in depth view of Lewis and why he was initially an atheist, as well as how he eventually came to be devoutly religious. It also examines his relationship with Tolkein and others, as well as the writing process behind his works, including the Chronicles of Narnia. It's a good look into his life, how he got from point a to b, not to mention religion, and the role it plays in fantasy. Also some interesting bits on Tolkein for anyone who is a fan of his.

Here's the link:

http://www.amazon.co...0060766905#noop

This post has been edited by teholbeddict: 13 January 2010 - 07:42 PM

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#12 User is offline   stone monkey 

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Posted 13 January 2010 - 07:31 PM

I don't necessarily think that native intelligence plays such a great factor; culture is a big one, as is personal philosophy. Arguably education plays a part too. I know and have known some very, very smart people who are believers.

Whilst there may be some sort of significant statistical correlation between fantasy readers and non-believers; that might be usefully explained by looking at the culture within which fantasy readers operate.
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#13 User is offline   Obdigore 

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Posted 13 January 2010 - 07:45 PM

View Poststone monkey, on 13 January 2010 - 07:31 PM, said:

I don't necessarily think that native intelligence plays such a great factor; culture is a big one, as is personal philosophy. Arguably education plays a part too. I know and have known some very, very smart people who are believers.

Whilst there may be some sort of significant statistical correlation between fantasy readers and non-believers; that might be usefully explained by looking at the culture within which fantasy readers operate.


I would put forth the thought that a group that nearly all see as one of the most intelligent (scientists), by pure dependence upon the scientific method, tend to be unreligious, as religion is a belief based theory, instead of a factually provable one.

Religious people will claim that the whole belief in god clause must remove the existance of factual evidence of some deity, whereas non-religious people will claim that such assumptions to prop up a word of mouth theory with no provable facts are pointless.

Round and round we go, where we stop, nobody knows. I personally think the belief that 'smarter people are less religious', although widespread, has in no way been proven, and so using such an assumption as a basis for inflamatory remarks seems silly, at the least.
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#14 User is offline   stone monkey 

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Posted 13 January 2010 - 07:58 PM

Well there are plenty of scientists who are believers... I personally disagree with them on the purely philosophical basis that I think that the deity is an unnecessary postulate given the current state of our knowledge about the universe. It would be astoundingly dumb of me (or anyone) to make a judgement on someone's intelligence based purely on whether they believe in god or not.

I might think that they were incorrect, but that's another story entirely...
If an opinion contrary to your own makes you angry, that is a sign that you are subconsciously aware of having no good reason for thinking as you do. If some one maintains that two and two are five, or that Iceland is on the equator, you feel pity rather than anger, unless you know so little of arithmetic or geography that his opinion shakes your own contrary conviction. … So whenever you find yourself getting angry about a difference of opinion, be on your guard; you will probably find, on examination, that your belief is going beyond what the evidence warrants. Bertrand Russell
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#15 User is offline   maro 

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Posted 14 January 2010 - 12:57 AM

View Postcaladanbrood, on 13 January 2010 - 06:49 PM, said:


maro - so why do you think that then? Religion is just for the great unwashed masses and the people who exploit them? Some sort of evidence would tend to be needed to back up your statement, this is the discussion board after all.




THat's a litle paranoid don't you think?

I don't need to prove anything as statistics can be twisted anyway you want. As you say this is a discussion forum, not a fact based, peer-reviewed article

It's just my opinion. :D

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#16 User is offline   maro 

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Posted 14 January 2010 - 01:05 AM

View PostTiste Simeon, on 13 January 2010 - 11:27 AM, said:

I am university educated, a committed Christian and an avid fantasy/sci-fi reader. I follow the Bible as the living word of God, and I try to follow the teachings of Jesus as an essential part of my life. I love God and talk to Him all the time.


I 'm happy for you and that's your choice. Consider how many people disagree here on what is inferred by SE's writing. That's one author. Multiply that by all the different authors of the Gospels, the time-scale between when they were written and now, the translation issues, "Revisionisms" of what is written by different flavours of the Church and you end up with something that could not possibly be related to the "Living Word".

It's like the worlds longest game of Chinese Whispers. :D


Quote




CS Lewis was a Christian and wrote about witches and dark magic etc. And yes, I know the Narnia books were a thinly veiled Christian allegory, but considering that Tolkein the sometimes-called "father of fantasy" (and no I can't remember who said that) was also a Christian (I believe he was the one who introduced Lewis to the faith...



Whilst Tolkien was a Christian, he was quite clear that his books were not meant to be used as an allegory.

This post has been edited by maro: 14 January 2010 - 01:06 AM

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#17 User is offline   Soulessdreamer 

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Posted 14 January 2010 - 07:45 AM

IMO the reason they tend not to mix is becuase to enjoy fantasy you must be open to the possibilities of otherness which a lot of the faithful are not for verious reasons.

Some I have found almost find fantasy offensive as if it was a competing theology as if new thoughts or ideas would compromise them.

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#18 User is offline   Adjutant Stormy~ 

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Posted 14 January 2010 - 10:30 AM

I think to really enjoy good sci-fi and fantasy you have to be comfortable with immersing yourself in a world that is often viciously at odds with the one that we know. The intellectually/existentially insecure would probably then shy away- which eliminates a substantial portion of the populous. Read into it what you will.

I read sci-fi (and to a lesser extent, fantasy) for the challenging worlds/worldviews.
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#19 User is offline   Kanubis 

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Posted 14 January 2010 - 11:11 AM

View Poststone monkey, on 13 January 2010 - 07:58 PM, said:

Well there are plenty of scientists who are believers... I personally disagree with them on the purely philosophical basis that I think that the deity is an unnecessary postulate given the current state of our knowledge about the universe. It would be astoundingly dumb of me (or anyone) to make a judgement on someone's intelligence based purely on whether they believe in god or not.

I might think that they were incorrect, but that's another story entirely...


Yes, and the relevant bit is the way they treat their faith as a seperate entity to their scientific works. I wouldn't see any different in 'intelligence' between A Christian (or other believer) that can compartmentalise their faith away from science and an athiest. Their faith exists, it gives them something personally, but they do not let it intefere with their scientific knowledge.

I only start to question the 'intelligence' of a believer when they apply their faith to science. This is because in my mind, scientific understanding is a valid measure of intelligence, so to ignore or distort empirical evidence due to your faith (for instance because you want to treat the time units in the Old Testament creation story literally a la Creationism) is contrary to an intelligent approach.

I would expect most Christians who have a moral issue with fantasy literature to fall in that latter catagory. I've always felt it kind of harsh that progressive Christians get burdened with falling under a wide catagory with these people.

This subject does interest me, and to this end I've always loved the philosophy of Teilhard de Chardin, a man of science as well as a priest who tried to reconcile his faith with scientific knowledge. Not saying I subscribe to his philosophy, I just like it :D

This post has been edited by Kanubis: 14 January 2010 - 11:12 AM

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#20 User is offline   Tiste Simeon 

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Posted 14 January 2010 - 01:25 PM

View Postmaro, on 14 January 2010 - 01:05 AM, said:

Whilst Tolkien was a Christian, he was quite clear that his books were not meant to be used as an allegory.

Yeah, sure but my point was that he wrote dark books full of violence and magic and mythological creatures. Yet was a Christian...

I'm not sure if this is the right place for this, but it occurred to me that true, real faith actually takes a lot of intelligence. Will have to think more on this and maybe write some thoughts down later. :D
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